CJ/Krell preamp shootout...And the winner is!!!

pearsall001

Now bear in mind that this review is based solely on what my ears heard in my system, in my room (well treated by the way).

They both had their +/- & truth be told, I would be very happy with keeping either one, but since I'm only keeping one, a decision had to be made.

In the end the scale tipped in favor of the "Krell", here's why.

The Krell combo with their true balanced configureation was indeed a real "ear opener". The Krell/CJ combo was also dead quiet but I didn't realize how noisy it actually was until I switched over to the Krell combo. You have never heard a truly black background until you experience a true balanced system.

The Krell combo along with the CA 840C also true balanced was absolutely stunning as far as a musical listening experience goes. The Krell combo simply carried more dynamics, bass slam, the music just had more "sparkle", was more alive, & portrayed a real world convincing soundstage & a very convincing...live, right in your room experience.

The CJ/Krell combo along with the CA 840C was exceptional also. But I take it that being a tube preamp it simply masked some of the music coming from the 840C (which is extremely dynamic). Tubes with their harmonics add some coloration that just didn't cut it to my ears. I just wanted to hear the music, the whole music & nothing but the music without anything being added or colored. If I never heard the balanced system, the CJ combo would have sounded simply wonderfull.

Now there were times that I enjoyed the CJ combo over the Krell combo, but over time I kept going back to the Krell combo. It just sounded more like "real music" & had me tapping my toes like never before. So there you have it!

Ricardo

I knew it.

Anyone else has doubts that you can achieve GREAT sound with no tubes anywhere in the rig??????

Congrats and enjoy!!

Ricardo

Now...where's my power cord????

pearsall001

Ricardo wrote: »

Now...where's my power cord????

It's in the mail!

One thing I forgot to mention, which by the way was probably the straw that broke the CJ's back.

Because my family is usually in bed by 9:30-10:00, I do most of my music listening at low to moderate volumn. The Krell combo along with tha CA 840C at these volumns just didn't skip a beat. With the CJ combo I found myself raising the volumn but still didn't have that "sparkle". It's simply amazing how dynamic the music is even at these volumns.

schwarcw

pearsall001 wrote: »

It's simply amazing how dynamic the music is even at these volumes.

**** A Phil! That is a trait of a great system. I think the best systems sound better at lower volumes than at wall thumping dB meter busting levels.

I like the high volumes for various music for the Adrenalin rush, but the music quality is just not as good. IMO.

venomclan

I want my Krells back :mad:
Venom

hearingimpared

Now take the ear muffs off Phil and give us the review.

beardog03

Good on ya....

Krell is no slouch from what I have heard...



so who wins the cables ?!!

I`ll take the CJ since it doesn`t trip your switch ..!!

I-SIG

pearsall001 wrote: »

Because my family is usually in bed by 9:30-10:00, I do most of my music listening at low to moderate volumn. The Krell combo along with tha CA 840C at these volumns just didn't skip a beat. With the CJ combo I found myself raising the volumn but still didn't have that "sparkle". It's simply amazing how dynamic the music is even at these volumns.

So I assume this easily passes the other room listening test? You know it's as easy to listen to in another room as the sweet spot?

BTW, I'm going balanced this year, just gotta find the pre that's right for me. I have a few idea, but...

Wes

rskarvan

And to think... this is Krell's lowest pre-amp and the amp is also very low on the Krell totem pole. Gotta wonder how it can get better?

I've got the same setup and when people talk about warm pre-amps and pleasing sound colorations... I'm completely confused. The Krell system has absolutely no coloration and is always maintains a dead silent background.

BTW, the HT pass-thru on the Krell Preamp works fabulous also.

If you had switched the Krell preamp from single-ended to XLR... you would have noticed a serious JUMP in the gain of the system. With a balanced config, the system has a pretty large gain. (you gotta keep the pre-amp volume kinda low). This is a little disappointing because there isn't as much resolution in the volume settings as I would have liked. Its difficult to adjust the step-ladder-resistor-based volume just a little bit at low volumes in XLR mode. Thats my only gripe about the Krell KAV 250p preamp.

- Ron

pearsall001

hearingimpared wrote: »

Now take the ear muffs off Phil and give us the review.

Just being honest here Joe, I called it the way I heard it.

cfrizz

Nice review Phil.

You also just confirmed what I thought about what I heard when Mark & I were at Goodwin Audio. All tubes do (as far as I'm concerned) is mask some of the dynamics of the music.

Mark said that when we were listening to a song from Eric Clapton's Unplugged album & the applause started he wanted to turn it down. All I could think it that it sounded like the audience was right there in the room with us, as was the band. It's supposed to be loud, it always is when I'm at a concert!

So just like you I want... "just to hear the music, the whole music & nothing but the music."

Congrats, enjoy your system.

Early B.

cfrizz wrote: »

. All tubes do (as far as I'm concerned is mask some of the dynamics of the music.

Well, tube gear is certainly known for taking the edge off the music to make it less fatiguing, but masking the dynamics of the music? Nah.

The thing about tube gear is that the brand of tubes can make a huge difference in the sound. One brand of tube may sound weak whereas another brand may sound very dynamic. Tube gear offers choices, but SS gear is what it is.

BaggedLancer

Early B. wrote: »

Tube gear offers choices, but SS gear is what it is.

I like that.

Ricardo

I like NOT having the choices. You need to find the right SS pieces, but once you do, you know you won't have any worries on the sound changing on you, burning a tube, are they matched correctly, is the bias right, damn I burned myself again, the room is too hot, I can't leave it on all the time beacause I'm reducing tube life, it doesn't sound right because the tubes haven't warmed up enough.....

Yes, tubes are fun

rskarvan

Agreed... the sound of solid state devices does not change!

venomclan

rskarvan wrote: »

I've got the same setup and when people talk about warm pre-amps and pleasing sound colorations... I'm completely confused. The Krell system has absolutely no coloration and is always maintains a dead silent background.
- Ron

Try listening to your Krells on some Martin Logans, then you will understand. I loved the Krells but they were just not as musical with some speakers. Too sterile.

cfrizz wrote: »

All tubes do (as far as I'm concerned is mask some of the dynamics of the music.

Cathy can never like tubes, they do not go up to 200 watts.

Ricardo wrote: »

I like NOT having the choices. You need to find the right SS pieces, but once you do, you know you won't have any worries on the sound changing on you, burning a tube, are they matched correctly, is the bias right, damn I burned myself again, the room is too hot, I can't leave it on all the time beacause I'm reducing tube life, it doesn't sound right because the tubes haven't warmed up enough.....
Yes, tubes are fun

This is what and still keeping me from a full tube setup. I went with the hybrid amp, it stays cool, no biasing and no need to change tubes as they do not burn out.
Venom

F1nut

rskarvan wrote: »

If you had switched the Krell preamp from single-ended to XLR... you would have noticed a serious JUMP in the gain of the system. With a balanced config, the system has a pretty large gain. (you gotta keep the pre-amp volume kinda low). This is a little disappointing because there isn't as much resolution in the volume settings as I would have liked. Its difficult to adjust the step-ladder-resistor-based volume just a little bit at low volumes in XLR mode. Thats my only gripe about the Krell KAV 250p preamp.

- ronnie

Did you actually read what Phil wrote or did you just stop at, "In the end the scale tipped in favor of the "Krell" because if you had read the entire post you would have realized that he has it hooked up using the XLR's.

The Krell combo with their true balanced configureation was indeed a real "ear opener".

Balanced or XLR, it's the same thing.

tonyb

This is what and still keeping me from a full tube setup. I went with the hybrid amp, it stays cool, no biasing and no need to change tubes as they do not burn out.
Venom

Exactly...me too.Too much fussing around,waiting for tubes to warm up,biasing,bad tubes,cost,pets,kids,wife,all are poison to a tube set-up.

rskarvan

F1nut (aka: Homer Simpson),

If you stopped being so critical, you would quickly realize that I already knew absolutely everything that you are insuating that I don't know. DOH!!!

And, if you had been paying attention, the Krell Kav250p/KAV250A combo can be run in either single-ended or xlr configuration. The XLR (balanced) configuration is clearly superior. Again, DOH!!!

Ron

F1nut

rskarvan wrote: »

If you stopped being so critical, you would quickly realize that I already knew absolutely everything that you are insuating that I don't know. DOH!!!

I'm not insinuating (add one I and one N......DOH!) anything, I know that you don't know.

And, if you had been paying attention, the Krell Kav250p/KAV250A combo can be run in either single-ended or xlr configuration. The XLR (balanced) configuration is clearly superior. Again, DOH!!!

I already made that point.

cfrizz

Oh yeah, that too!:D:D:D

venomclan wrote: »

Cathy can never like tubes, they do not go up to 200 watts. :DVenom

cfrizz

Well the thing for me Brad is if the edge is there, then that is what the artist wanted to be there so I shouldn't be trying to take it out. Maybe dampening is a better word than masking. I want my music undamped.

The only edge that I can't stand is the edge that is sharpened even more by playing through metal tweeters. No amount of volume reduction can cure it or make it less fatiguing.

Early B. wrote: »

Well, tube gear is certainly known for taking the edge off the music to make it less fatiguing, but masking the dynamics of the music? Nah.

The thing about tube gear is that the brand of tubes can make a huge difference in the sound. One brand of tube may sound weak whereas another brand may sound very dynamic. Tube gear offers choices, but SS gear is what it is.

hearingimpared

I would really like to hear the CJ/Krell amp combo before you let the CJ go.

hearingimpared

cfrizz wrote: »

Well the thing for me Brad is if the edge is there, then that is what the artist wanted to be there so I shouldn't be trying to take it out.

Cath I'm all for "perfect" reproduction of the music, however, and this might go against the grain of being an audiophile, I like to hear my music a certain way. If the artist wanted an "edge" to the music, that edge might make me want to read a magazine while I'm listening or just move on to something that doesn't have that edge.

There a millions of recordings out there and they all have an engineer's and mixer's signature all over them that doesn't mean that the music was placed on the medium for maximum fidelity.

Just a thought.

pearsall001

I'm sure tubes have their place, in fact I loved my CJ & would swear by it. Then venom had to twist my arm to take the Krell combo off of him!!

Then I heard what Krell is all about & I simply enjoy it more than the CJ/Krell combo. The level of detail & realism is just so much more prevelent with the Krell combo. I'm not looking to add the flavor of the month, which tubes characterize.

cfrizz

I understand what you're saying Joe. We just go about it differently. You make adjustments to get the sound you want to hear via tubes & vinyl. I get it through a pair of soft domed tweeter speakers and let the chips fall where they may.

As long as I can listen to all my favorite music all day & all night at any volume I choose without getting a headache I'm happy.:)

hearingimpared wrote: »

Cath I'm all for "perfect" reproduction of the music, however, and this might go against the grain of being an audiophile, I like to hear my music a certain way. If the artist wanted an "edge" to the music, that edge might make me want to read a magazine while I'm listening or just move on to something that doesn't have that edge.

There a millions of recordings out there and they all have an engineer's and mixer's signature all over them that doesn't mean that the music was placed on the medium for maximum fidelity.

Just a thought.

wingnut4772

Tubes just seem like too much trouble to me. High maintenance. The only thing I want in my home that's high maintenance is me.;)

hearingimpared

Here's what I was thinking Phil. When I was there and you played the Krell/Krell/Cambridge combo for me, I immediately noticed that the presentation was much more forward than what I was used to hearing in your rig. That James Taylor song for instance. Prior to this new rig, JT was back about even with the rear of your AADs and the rest of the band was back further and the front to rear depth was very deep. It was kinds of like sitting in the 7th or 8th row away from JT. Very warm and very easy on the ears. No striking leading edges or harsh overtones.

With the new rig, JT was about four feet in front of your speakers with the rest of the band spread out around where the speakers were. The speakers in both cases disappeard and it sounded like I was sitting in the front row.

If asked which sounded better, it would have been natural for me to say that the new rig sounded better because that forward presentation always sounds better. It's similar to hearing an A/B of something with "B" being a little louder and brighter. Our ears are fooled by the loudness and brightness at first to sounding good. After a week of that you would probably think it didn't sound so good.

This is by no means that I am saying you are hearing all new stuff and it sounds so different in your well treated room that you are being fooled by the "new" sound.

I really hope I can get over there becasue I would really like to hear the tube pre with the sand amp before you sell the CJ.

hearingimpared

wingnut4772 wrote: »

Tubes just seem like too much trouble to me. High maintenance. The only thing I want in my home that's high maintenance is me.;)

I always felt that way about tubes too Darla, but I've found that using tubes in the source or preamp there is no high maintenance. On thing is does provide is the versatility to change out tubes to mold the music to my liking. If I just go sand in the source or preamp I have to take what it gives.

I don't think that right now I would want to go with a tube amp. . . there I can see high maintenance where right now I have molded my rig to where I am extremely happy with the analog front end as well as the red book front end matched with Tri Vista! The only think I have left to do is hook up the Denon 2900 for SACD/DVD-A throught my MF tube buffer to see if that is going to complete my rig with all goals met.

EDIT: oh yeah I forgot room tuning and treating.

wingnut4772

hearingimpared wrote: »

I always felt that way about tubes too Darla, but I've found that using tubes in the source or preamp there is no high maintenance. On thing is does provide is the versatility to change out tubes to mold the music to my liking. If I just go sand in the source or preamp I have to take what it gives.

I don't think that right now I would want to go with a tube amp. . . there I can see high maintenance where right now I have molded my rig to where I am extremely happy with the analog front end as well as the red book front end matched with Tri Vista! The only think I have left to do is hook up the Denon 2900 for SACD/DVD-A throught my MF tube buffer to see if that is going to complete my rig with all goals met.

EDIT: oh yeah I forgot room tuning and treating.

That's how I would go if I were going to venture into tubes. Most likely a pre.