And Then it happened

mantismantis Posts: 15,335
edited November 2002 in Electronics
The shootout of all shootouts........B&K VS Rotel....Finally!!!!

B&K avr307
Rotel Rc-971 preamp
Rotel RB960BX amp
Transparent music link interconnects
Monstercable M1.4s bi wire speaker cables
Monstercable HTS5000 Line/surge
Pioneer Elite DV47a DVD player/cd player/SACD player
Polk Audio Lsi15's.

MUSIC:
Steely Dan"2 Against Nature...cd
Alice N Chains"unpluged"........DVD
Train "Drops Of Jupiter"...........SACD
Al Di Meola "Winter Nights"......Telarc cd
Lorenna Mckennitt "Sample CD".cd

The B&K is owned by liv4fam.I finally got some time together to conduct this well waited shootout.Man what a shootout it was.

The B&K was up first and man was it sounding good.This receiver is fantastic,dynamic and powerfull.at 185 watts into a 4 ohm load,it showed it allday.It handled the lsi15's like a Manador at a Bull fight.Man I like it.The high's where slightly rolled off and relaxed,Mid range was alittle forward and punchy,Bass.........well Thunder comes to mind.Sacd was awesome.....I was enjoying the music more then listening to the peice.Man the mid range was warm and clean.I will have to say this is one fine sounding receiver.Better then just about all I have ever listened 2.Including the Sunfire receiver.I think the B&K might have it's way with it.If your getting the Idea I love this thing...well your right.I can't ask anymore out of one box.........hell you would sware it sounds like a nice seperate system........actually it is an intergraded.
Next up was the Rotel seperates........man simply put awesome......mighty and proud to run the lsi15's.Super detailed and clear highs relaxed mid range and super tight and punchy bass.I like it.The amp has a hell of alot of power for being rated at 110watts at a 4ohm load( I believe that was what Rotel told me when I asked them)It's 60 into a 8 ohm load dual mono design.Killer little amp.The preamp was smooth on volume ramping.Rotel and Lsi go together perfectly.

Now to compare the 2............
B&K held it's own against the Rotel seperates,better then I expected.It hung right in there on every last detail and finesse.I was shocked how good both of them are even in a shootout.I have heard Rotel alot on alot of different setups.B&K as well.
Ok Highs go to the Rotel....slightly cleaner and airy.B&K rolled off a bit,but just slighty.
Midrange......pick what you like better,laidback or full of warmth.I couldn't deside whch one I liked better, they where different but I liked them the same, kinda like what mood you are in......funny.
Lows........again Pick em......the Rotel is very punchy and tight,powerfull bass when needed,so was the B&K I would say it's slighty mellow.....but not alot in compare.Both Rotel and B&K are very musical.I think it would come down to what you need in features,and how much money you have to spend.B&K is more expensive,Rotel can't be touched for the Money.I would have loved to have the Rsx1065 here for a receiver to receiver shootout.The rsx1065 sounds just like my 2 channel system does.They don't change.Just add power.I like that about Rotel.B&K is basically the same way The avr307 sounds almost exactly like the ref30 and ref 7270, the seperates just have more power,same sound quality.
I think if your going to spend megabucks on Japanese receivers,I'd look into B&K and Rotel first then last.Your not going to get this kind of sound quality out of Denon,Yamaha,Integra/Onkyo,Sony,Pioneer Elite,Kenwood,etc.The Sunfire receiver would also be a nice pick,again on the pricey side but well worth it, that thing sounds real good as well.

I'm gonna cut this one short......I like em both alot.If I owned one or the other I would be totally happy and not wanting the other.
This puts me sorta where I was before I did the shootout, but now I got B&K in my sole again........**** I don't know what the hell 2 buy.I gotta weigh out alot of things.:confused:
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on
«13

Comments

  • polkatesepolkatese Posts: 6,772
    edited November 2002
    Dan,
    what about the HT features? no LOTR test drive? It sounds like a very close bake off....do you want me to send my rsx1065 for the next one?:lol:
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,335
    edited November 2002
    polkatese,
    I will have to give it to the new B&K avr507 for home theater features.It has THX Ultra2 setting, the Rotel does not.
    They both sport DTS discrete,Surround ex,PL2 and Neo so even there.The B&K has built in amps for surround back, the rsx1065 you gotta buy a 2 channel amp......hince the lower cost.
    B&K has 7 video ins and 3 component....Rotel has 5 and 2.If you need more connectability B&k is the way to go, but you'll pay double for it.rsx1065 is 2 grand and the B&K avr507 is 4 grand.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • joe logstonjoe logston Posts: 882
    edited November 2002
    mantis , i guess its how much money you want to spend, is the b&k upgradable, and i make you the offical polk reviewer.
    good post, and how do you like your lsi-15 now
    . rt-7 mains
    rt-20p surounds
    cs-400i front center
    cs-350 ls rear center
    2 energy take 5, efects
    2- psw-650 , subs
    1- 15" audiosource sub

    lets all go to the next ces.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,335
    edited November 2002
    Offical Polk review....I hope I can live up 2 that title.....but thats.

    The B&K avr series for a long time has been and always will be upgradeable.B&K has always allowed to 2 upgrade to the newest receiver.Limit one upgrade.If you own the avr202 and had it upgraded to the avr307, you can't upgrade it to the avr507.I'f you can it will be a first.The avr101 was able to upgrade to the avr202,but not the avr307.
    B&K earned my respect when they released the avr307.I went to B&K in Buffalo NY for training on it and the ref30.Imperssive operation they have up there.Everything is hand made.They build everything from a circuit board.I watched a avr307 get built from start to finish.I was In love......O amn what a 3 day trip that was.

    B&k is my benchmark which I grade all my receivers to.Nothing untill I came across Rotel had equal or dare I say better sound quality.Rotel is half the price,and only half the receiver in features.Sound quality it's so hard to deside.I'm becoming impatient as I haven't had Home theater going on 2 months now...
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,335
    edited November 2002
    and how do you like your lsi-15 now
    Sorry Joe,
    I was ranting about the B&K and got lost in the moment.My lsi15's are of high regaurds.I love them completly.:D

    Mated with Both B&K and Rotel, I had some high end sounding shootout going on in my livingroom.Man I was sitting there just loving the Lsi15's taking all the power sent to them.They are in my opnion....the very best of the best for under 2 grand.Don't believe all the hype about them hanging with high end speakers costing twice or more then there cost.Not true.....compare them to there own class and I believe they lead the way,setting the standard,king of the hill......etc........;)

    So if your getting the Idea I love em......allday!!!!!!

    Super happy with My Lsi15's Mantis.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • liv4famliv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    B&K IS THE BEST HOME THEATER RECEIVER ON THE MARKET TODAY


    IMO IT HAS NO EQUAL FOR THE MONEY

    PERIOD..............................
    I sense much dishonesty in you...............Sense much fear in you.
    Lead you down the dark path they will.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    pffffffffffffft.......for 3 grand.

    Whatever.

    A wise man once said: 'stupid is as stupid does'.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • liv4famliv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    Man you don't even have Home Theater.

    So why do you think your opinion even matters?

    You still think 2 channel stereo is awesome for movies.

    YOU ARE A SMACK!!!!!
    I sense much dishonesty in you...............Sense much fear in you.
    Lead you down the dark path they will.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    Oh, I don't have a HT?

    Holy CRAP!, lemme go look in the living room...../walking down the hall/ stomp, stomp, stomp..../walking back/.....Let's see, my Denon HT receiver and Carver amps are still there, Tosh DVD player, RTA12C's in front, CS400i, P-dime sub, R10 rears (the .5lb type on aftermarket brackets, surely you remember those). WHEW! All still there, I was worried something happened to them.

    Yet another shining example of a brain being on vacation leaving the old pie hole in charge.

    Better luck next time.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    Oh, while your at it, explain to the 95% of the population that is in the majority, why movies can't sound good in good old 2.0

    This promises to be entertaining. Devoid of logic, but entertaining.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • liv4famliv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    Oh Damn,

    I totally forgot about that.........................I remember I used to have fun with your R10's.

    Funny why don't you kick people with your HT more. It's gotta be reference in your eyes it has Carver in there doesn't it earn the same respect as your beloved DQ-10's??

    Which Denon you have? The 1601 or did you take it out and get 1801?
    I am dying to know. Come on Bless me with your wisdom. Since all SS amps sound identical I bet your Denon will destroy or at least hang with any other receiver (except the sunfire ultimate receiver) since you seem to think spending 3000 grand on a receiver is just stupid.

    I guess a lot of people are really stupid huh Troy?

    Actually I think I will start a post stating that "according to troy everyone that owns a 3000 dollar receiver is stupid"
    I sense much dishonesty in you...............Sense much fear in you.
    Lead you down the dark path they will.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    Hey, whatever floats your boat, but I like RonP's theory. He's got a Marantz receiver (probably about 500 bucks) and Adcoms hooked up to a L,R,C and rears. I'm guessing that Ron's got less than a grand, all in and has performance that is rival to a receiver costing at least twice that.

    Yes, my receiver is an 1801 and the amp is a m0.5t. While you and others may scoff, personally I could care less and I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be embarrased by the B&K/Def Tech rig.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • liv4famliv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    Hey Dude,

    Come on now. Do you really believe that a low end receiver and an old outdated Carver amp or any amp for that matter will rival descent receivers or seperates of today?

    I really think you are fooling yourself now. If you are truly an A/V guy than you can appreciate the differences between good equipment and crap.

    I heard a ghetto system at work last week that had a Yamaha RXV-2095 and an Adcom GFA-6000 and Audire 20 amp and it sounded so disgusting I wanted to laugh but our customer was so into it that we had to refrain. But man Dan and I were floored that he could actually sit down and listen to that.

    I know people just want to better there systems and most people take pride in what they own but JESUS CHRIST!!!!

    AMPS and RECEIVERS suck ballbags. They are not meant to be together and it doesn't work.

    I have really high standards as to what stuff should like and even my system is not exactly where I want it yet nor do I go around telling everybody it is badass. I have laughed at and beaten up Martin logan and Proceed systems, Krell and Wilson, it doesn't matter if it sounds **** then it sucks.

    Why all of you cherish amp to receivers I will never know but to say that it will rival top-end receiver......................I say you really don't know what you are talking about no do I think you carry the experience to make such a judgement.

    All smiles..........................That was for you Dan.
    I sense much dishonesty in you...............Sense much fear in you.
    Lead you down the dark path they will.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    RBH inwalls ~ really high standards......

    yup, I don't even need to reply to that one.

    Like a fat girl in a dodgeball game, I'm OUT!

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • liv4famliv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    No more RBH man...........................

    What's that you don't have a leg to stand on? owwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
    I sense much dishonesty in you...............Sense much fear in you.
    Lead you down the dark path they will.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    a leg to stand on?

    Shoot, least I'm not switching feet every other post.

    Where do you stand on the Onk/Integra thing? How 'bout how much Yammie sucks, though you owned one of thier receivers...

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    You guys are funny!!! I was going to say more but then everyone would be mad at me.

    Well I gotta spit out this one at least. There is a customer listening to a known disgusting setup, at the store you are affiliated with, and you are afraid to lead him to something better??? I've had people at my local shop tell me what was junk and what didn't work well together on many occasions. When I didn't believe it they worked on me until I understood. Sometimes it was downright painful.

    He will eventually figure it out.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • liv4famliv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    Yamaha does suck IMO the only reason I owned it was because it mated with my in-walls extremely good. I bought the 995 to to see how well it mated and I was shocked so I bought the RXV-1 and it served me well for like a year than I got new speakers once again and the yamaha didn't mate so I tried B&K and it mated very well so I bought the AVR-307 and that's where I am at now.
    Next year I will probably do it all over again and so on and so on.

    Onkyo- Garbage...................Integra-Garbage

    Why do I feel this way?

    Simple I have heard them many times and have worked with them for awhile and my reasons are that they are extremely bright like Yamaha they have very little current(no amps) and there setup is horrible not too mention there features are downright stupid like if you try to use the internal amps for multiroom it cuts out the rears. What's the freaking point.
    And they don't really mate with anything they make B&W sound nasty and Dynaudio sounds like KLH on them and it acts like a Denon don't put anything under a 6 ohm load on it or it will die.

    How's that?
    I sense much dishonesty in you...............Sense much fear in you.
    Lead you down the dark path they will.
  • VE6OHVVE6OHV Posts: 119
    edited November 2002
    I must say that I find some of the comments here a little offensive. I must question hiring an "installer" (is that kind of like the oil "installer" at Wal-Mart that has no education and knows everything about your car), to install or set up my HT after comments like I see here. I have trouble thinking that some of you folks are "professionals" in your field. I work on all kinds of customer equipment, and each situation is unique and each customer has their preferences. As a "Professional" in my field my job is to advise the customer and work within their limits - NOT to pass judgement because I KNOW ALL!.

    One word comes to mind - "Jackass" some of you should send a resume to Johnny Knoxville, I'm sure you would fit right in.

    One last thought. Mine ain't the biggest, but I it gets me where I want to go.
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Wow,
    And this is from an amature radio operator (I think) who are pretty much the most honest down to earth non-trouble making perceptive helpful people in the world! Is that a call sign or am I wrong about that?

    BTW, my stuff cost more than theirs so it must be better! Just kidding:)

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • phuzphuz Posts: 2,413
    edited November 2002
    VE6OHV, good job. :)

    Stick around if ya can, we could use more people around here like you.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 41,966
    edited November 2002
    I thought that may be the type of engine in his 4X4.

    I agree, good read!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    It could be that people who own 4X4's with that particular engine have good insite. It is probably not fair to keep picking on Mantis after bedtime :)
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 41,966
    edited November 2002
    And Then it ended............:p
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • mantismantis Posts: 15,335
    edited November 2002
    Damn I didn't even get in on all this madness......O WOW!!!

    Since this is MY post I feel the need to RETORT.......

    Look,
    it's like this.......Liv4fam is entitled to his opnions.Agree or not.He comes off strong but believes what he writes.No sense in trying to discredit him as YOU LOOK LIKE AN **** in doing it.

    The Family Fued between Russ,Troy,Liv4fam and I is just what we do.We get along for awhile then all of what happened on this post........happens.......;)

    But can we all agree we all have our own opnions and should be aloud to have them?

    check this out......debate this

    Yamaha sucks my ballbag......2 bright and mates horrible with alot of different speakers.

    Integra..........Onkyo........ditto.

    I think using a receiver with external amps instead of a preamp is a waste of time and money......My opnion.

    I like good wire.........do you?

    Troy thinks if it costs alot or it is new, it's not worth his time.

    Troy also thinks his DQ-10's are the effin **** less of the Carver Amazing's........

    Tory thinks Carver is the best amp for his reasons..money,hype,whatever.

    I think My Lsi15's are the best speakers under 2 grand period.

    Rotel is the very best bang for the buck.

    B&K makes fantastic gear.....receivers(intergraded)or seperates.

    I can't now deside which way I want to go....B&K......Rotel.......B&K.....Rotel.......B&K.....Rotel.

    I think picking on what someone does for a living is low.

    I am proud to be an Installer.

    But I still need some help desiding which way to go.

    I don't think just because I'm an Installer I'm the be all end all,I'm still learning like everyone else.

    :)

    One last thing.......Troy.3 grand???is that alot of money for todays receivers???it's wrong the B&K avr507 is 4 grand.And I will put it up against any receiver running seperate amps all effin day.I will go as far as saying it's better then Sunfires Ultimate receiver.I think it smokes it for sound quality,it's THX Ultra2 and worht every last cent of 4 grand..........seperates in one case.o how nice........Integraded all effin day my man........stop judging things by it's price tag.......if you can't get into it,that doesn't mean it sounds..........sorry to tell you the avr307 won the very best receiver on the market 3 times in a row.....:p
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    Dan,

    No need to try and make him look like an ****, he does that all on his own.

    Also, ever occur to you that he does more to tarnish the image of a 'Pro HT Installer' than any of us ever could?

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,335
    edited November 2002
    Troy,
    it's just what he does.He feels real strong about what he has learned.He's been an Installer for like 9 years now.And is one of the very best I have ever met.

    Do I also tarnish the image of Installers?
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited November 2002
    Troy thinks if it costs alot or it is new, it's not worth his time

    I never said any such thing. My point is that there is a LOT of great gear on the used market. That being said, yes, for MY money I can buy more quality for less money with used gear. I got nothing against new gear at all. Same theory on the Carver amps, are there better amps? No doubt, but not at a price I can live with.

    Nor did I say that the DQ-10 is the end all, be all. However, I've not heard a speaker under 5 G's that I would say is overall 'better'. As far as the Amazings go, sure, I think that they are pretty sweet as well. Those are my opinions and if folks don't agree, hey, no problem.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • VE6OHVVE6OHV Posts: 119
    edited November 2002
    I am not trying to attack what you are doing for a living. I just find your attitude unprofessional. I normaly don't get involved in pissing contests like this. Mantis, you can have whatever relationship with the rest of the people here, be it good, bad, or otherwise, I am not interested. I do find reading some of the posts here to be informative, insightful, and well thought out, thogh there are some like this that are full of usless banter.

    I admit the Wal-mart crack was uncalled for.

    Personal fellings aside, (I would like to hear from the "professional" installers here), what formal education or training have you recived to qualify you as a "Journeyman". Please don't include the typical propoganda that the manufacturer hosts. Are you an electrical engineer, carpenter, Physics Phd., what is it?

    That said everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But that is what it is an OPINION.

    Yes it is an amatuer radio call sign, I use the system to communicate from the Jeep when we are out of range of cell phones. (Wich is all the time).
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited November 2002
    I'm in the wireless industry and just wondering where you are and why you have such poor coverage.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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