Need some electrical help - immediately!

Mazeroth

Three days ago I walk in from work and my wife says there's a burning smell in the basement. I walk down and sure enough, it smells a little of burnt electronics. I tried to isolate the cause for a solid 30 minutes but came up empty-handed so I opened the windows for a few hours until the smell left. I then inspected every few hours to see if the smell came back but it didn't.

Fast forward to 30 minutes ago.

I walk into the computer room and turn on a little 1500w portable heater along with my computer, which I do all the time. I notice the floor lamp starting to pulsate so I immediately think to run over and turn the 1500w heater off, thinking it was getting ready to trip the breaker. I do so and the lamp is still pulsating. I immediately run downstairs thinking I'm going to catch the cause for the burnt smell and sure enough, the breaker box is making that "electricity zapping" sound. I turn off the family room breaker and the sound stops. Just to be sure that was the only culprit I turned it back on and quickly turned the others off, with no stopping the sound. So, I have isolated the sound. I then ran upstairs and unplugged everything from all the family room outlets and when the breaker is back on there's no sound. Plug one thing in and it starts all over again. I smelled every outlet just to see if there was a short or something(give me a break, I'm new to this!) but all checked out ok.

So, what's a guy to do? Should I go out and buy a new breaker from the local Home Depot, turn off my main 150A and install a new breaker? Or is this something I should pay someone $200 to come out and fix? I helped my Dad wire up our pole barn a few years ago and understand electricity a little better than your average Joe (I think) so if you think this is something I could tackle solo let me know.

Thanks.

danger boy

if it were me.. and since it's shorting out somewhere. i would pay someone to fix it for me. there are certain things like electricity that I won't do.. and a breaker box is one of them.

good luck. that doesn't sound like a good thing you got going there. Not to alarm you.. but I'd have trouble sleeping knowing that it's like that.

hearingimpared

It does sound like the breaker is shot. If you shut the mains down you should have not problem installing the new breaker. Just make sure you do go near the main wires coming off the line outside cause they're still hot.

Dennis Gardner

Loose breaker. Tighten or replace.

mrbigbluelight

Check the wires where they're connected to the breaker.

If they're loose, the connection turns into a toaster.

With no load on (everything unplugged), there's no current and, like an unplugged toaster, there's no heat.

Get a new breaker, hopefully you have a simple Stab-Lok (or whatever the heck Square D calls them) breaker. They're easy to install.

NOTE:

KILL THE MAIN BREAKER BEFORE REPLACING THE BREAKER

It can be done hot, I usually do it that way but I'm lazy and I'm an idiot.



I assume you don't have aluminum wiring. Aluminum wiring is notorious for getting loose at connections.

trubluluc

....so start there. Do make sure you have cut the main power before changing.
If it doesn't help or make a difference, you're only out $20. or so, and you'll have a new breaker for when you make a dedicated line to the "man cave".
While at "home depot" get one of those $5. outlet testers and plug it into all the outlets in the suspected room, and any others on the same circuit. If none of this isolates or repairs the problem.........
Then call the electrician.

-Luc

Serendipity

One thing to pay attention to is the load you are putting on the circuit. Running a 1500W portable heater, computer, lamps, and other things on one breaker may be overloading the circuit.

Even if it turns out to be a problem with the breaker, I'd recommend against plugging in so many things on the same circuit - in my house I plug in portable heaters only on 20A dedicated circuits so that I am not overloading the other shared circuits in the house.

In any case, I hope you get your problem fixed and remember, TURN OFF THE MAIN BREAKER BEFORE DOING ANY WORK!

One more thing, in http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm it seems that certain breakers can stick in the ON position and provide no fire protection!! So make sure your panel is not of the Federal Pacific brand because they may be a hazard.

Sherardp

If you have zero experience with electricity then hire someone. It does sound like you have a short at the box, or either one of your lines is over the breakers limit. As said before you can do it yourself, but you should kill the main breaker coming into the box, from there you'll be fine. LAZY+ ELECTRICITY doesnt mix, trust me I've been zapped plenty of times to tell you. That tingle isnt nice, so if youre hesitant about it, pay the bucks for a tech.

movtarget

To reinforce what Hearingimpaired had to say:

Do not get anywhere near the main lugs, even after throwing the main breaker. The main lugs are where the big fat wires coming into the breaker box from the service entrance (or the main panel, if you are working in a sub-panel). They are always energized (or should be considered so, unless you have other personnel and/or electrical professionals to confirm they are de-energized).

If you are uncomfortable with the situation, best to hire an electrician, but replacing the breaker is a logical repair for the symptoms you describe.

Consider an arc-fault breaker (2-4 times the cost of a regular breaker, but lots cheaper than an electrician) in case the arc symptom is in a switch, junction, or an appliance (instead of a failing breaker).

With the main breaker for the panel off, check to make sure the wire connected to the breaker is tightened properly (likely black, but code also allows red under some conditions, or other colors of wire with black markings such as electrical tape to indicate it's a hot wire) as well as tightening the neutral bus connection (white wire) and ground bus connections. (Both ground and neutral are connected to the same bus bar in a main panel, but separate bus connections in a sub-panel, grounds are only tied to neutrals at one point in a structure).

Note: I'm not an electrician, but I've wired a lot of my own residence, always to or exceeding code.

Movtarget

Mazeroth

First off, thanks for the overwhelming amount of replies. It just goes to show why this is one of the best forums on the net and why I still visit it, even though I build my own speakers now.

I killed the main and pulled out the faulty breaker and sure enough, the black plastic on the right side of the breaker (that is touching the breaker to the right of it) was burnt white and boy did that breaker stink! Knowing I wouldn't make it to Home Depot and back in time I kept that breaker off, placed in back into the panel and turned the main back on temporarily until I can fix it tomorrow.

I guess from now on I'll plug the portable heater into the hallway outlet and run the cord under the door to be safe. I sometimes camp out in the computer/theater room for 6-8 hours at a time and like it nice and toasty while I turn the rest of the house down to 60º, so I still need my little heating buddy!

Thanks again, everyone, for your help.

Serendipity

Mazeroth wrote: »

First off, thanks for the overwhelming amount of replies. It just goes to show why this is one of the best forums on the net and why I still visit it, even though I build my own speakers now.

I killed the main and pulled out the faulty breaker and sure enough, the black plastic on the right side of the breaker (that is touching the breaker to the right of it) was burnt white and boy did that breaker stink! Knowing I wouldn't make it to Home Depot and back in time I kept that breaker off, placed in back into the panel and turned the main back on temporarily until I can fix it tomorrow.

I guess from now on I'll plug the portable heater into the hallway outlet and run the cord under the door to be safe. I sometimes camp out in the computer/theater room for 6-8 hours at a time and like it nice and toasty while I turn the rest of the house down to 60º, so I still need my little heating buddy!

Thanks again, everyone, for your help.

Looks like you have a loose hot wire or faulty breaker.

Can you plug in the heater on a different circuit?

lightman1

Solid advice so far, Maze. I'm a licensed electrical contractor. While the mains are off, go ahead and check ALL breakers for tightness at the lugs. Just give them a little nudge should do the trick. As you load up a circuit, the wires and lugs get hot. Inverse on unloading. Hence expansion and contraction at points of contact. Take pre-cautions on using space heaters of ANY size. They are the worse things you can use on a general circuit, ie lighting and receptacles. Dedicated 20A is the way for these types of heaters.
Again, if you're not to keen on taking a crack at it, DON'T. Better safe than sorry.
Lightman Russ

Serendipity

lightman1 wrote: »

Solid advice so far, Maze. I'm a licensed electrical contractor. While the mains are off, go ahead and check ALL breakers for tightness at the lugs. Just give them a little nudge should do the trick. As you load up a circuit, the wires and lugs get hot. Inverse on unloading. Hence expansion and contraction at points of contact. Take pre-cautions on using space heaters of ANY size. They are the worse things you can use on a general circuit, ie lighting and receptacles. Dedicated 20A is the way for these types of heaters.
Again, if you're not to keen on taking a crack at it, DON'T. Better safe than sorry.
Lightman Russ

+1

Agreed. I always plug in space heaters into dedicated 20A circuits, because the times that I plugged an 1875W hair dryer into a shared circuit I had the same problem.

obieone

One bit of advice-hire an electrician to do an electrical audit of your house. they can determine whether the load exceeds your panel capacity.

SKsolutions

If it was fine before now, it will be fine later. Read the breaker, write it down, go and get the same one. Plug and play. Just unplug, before you play.

Beekyman

You wouldnt happen to have a FEDERAL PACIFIC breaker panel installed in your house do you? I have heard all sorts of horror stories concerning those (old house had one, contemplated swapping panel...$1000 plus job!) Do some research to be safe!
What concerns me is that if the breaker was overheating to the point where it was getting hot and crispy, then it has failed as a SAFETY device! This sounds alot like the failure scenarios regarding FEDERAL PACIFIC breakers. Make sure that if your home uses aluminium wire that you use the the proper switches and outlets marked CO/AL otherwise you ar risking further issues with loose shorting wires. I'm no electrician but several years working at the local ACE hardware in electrical have enlightened me on a few of these issues. Perhaps one of our resident electricians on the forum could clarify further! Good luck with that issue and keep the fire extinguisher near until you get that fixed!

Serendipity

Beekyman wrote: »

You wouldnt happen to have a FEDERAL PACIFIC breaker panel installed in your house do you? I have heard all sorts of horror stories concerning those (old house had one, contemplated swapping panel...$1000 plus job!) Do some research to be safe!
What concerns me is that if the breaker was overheating to the point where it was getting hot and crispy, then it has failed as a SAFETY device! This sounds alot like the failure scenarios regarding FEDERAL PACIFIC breakers. Make sure that if your home uses aluminium wire that you use the the proper switches and outlets marked CO/AL otherwise you ar risking further issues with loose shorting wires. I'm no electrician but several years working at the local ACE hardware in electrical have enlightened me on a few of these issues. Perhaps one of our resident electricians on the forum could clarify further! Good luck with that issue and keep the fire extinguisher near until you get that fixed!

I've heard of the Federal Pacific panel hazards too; and you're right, if the breaker was melting and not providing fire protection, then something seems amiss. If the breaker did indeed get that hot, then it should have tripped anyways...

nadams

I never would've put that breaker back in the box... Even if it's switched off, it's already damaged. It could short and cause fire even when switched off. Take that breaker out and leave the spot empty if need be!

nadams

SKsolutions wrote: »

If it was fine before now, it will be fine later. Read the breaker, write it down, go and get the same one. Plug and play. Just unplug, before you play.

Haha!

My house was switched over to a circuit breaker panel in the early 70's. You're saying that 100amp panel is enough for air conditioners, computers, and all the electric appliances we run these days??? On days when I had the A/C on, my main breaker would actually get hot to the touch. It never did trip, though.

I'm upgrading to a 200 amp box this spring before it gets hot again. And I only have a little over 1000sq ft of house to power!

Serendipity

nadams wrote: »

Haha!

My house was switched over to a circuit breaker panel in the early 70's. You're saying that 100amp panel is enough for air conditioners, computers, and all the electric appliances we run these days??? On days when I had the A/C on, my main breaker would actually get hot to the touch. It never did trip, though.

I'm upgrading to a 200 amp box this spring before it gets hot again. And I only have a little over 1000sq ft of house to power!

I'd say at the minimum space heaters, air conditioners, and kitchen appliances should not be plugged into circuits to the point where its overloading them. Also consider 200amp service if your house is not so equipped. I find my 100amp service to be inadequate...especially during the holidays with Christmas lights

lightman1

I wouldn't throw a Fed-Pac breaker at my worst enemy. It would be an insult to him and against some of the Geneva Convention Rules of Engagement.

obieone

I've never heard of Fed-pac? The only breakers I'm aware of is G.E. & Square D, and 1 other one,(can't remember the name?)

lightman1

Federal-Pacific. Cheap-****, no-count product. Low grade mains and bus bars. Lower than Cutler-Hammer residential line. Handles shift around in the breakers. They don't have the solid "Click" you get with Square D or GE. IMHO of course.

nadams

obieone wrote: »

I've never heard of Fed-pac? The only breakers I'm aware of is G.E. & Square D, and 1 other one,(can't remember the name?)

Be educated! http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

Serendipity

nadams wrote: »

Be educated! http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

See my post on Federal Pacific panels

WilliamM2

lightman1 wrote: »

Federal-Pacific. Cheap-****, no-count product. Low grade mains and bus bars. Lower than Cutler-Hammer residential line. Handles shift around in the breakers. They don't have the solid "Click" you get with Square D or GE. IMHO of course.

What's wrong with Cutler-Hammer? Are they dangerous as well? Have a 30 year old CH in my house, hasn't given me any trouble. Inspectors never said anything last year when I added an addition. And the Electrical inspector was very thorough.

lightman1

WilliamM2 wrote: »

What's wrong with Cutler-Hammer? Are they dangerous as well? Have a 30 year old CH in my house, hasn't given me any trouble. Inspectors never said anything last year when I added an addition. And the Electrical inspector was very thorough.

Nope. CH made a fine product back then. Solid build. Just the newer stuff.They just don't have the same quality today. They are, IMO, tract home specials. Cheaper by the truckload.
I'm just picky about what I use in an install. I'll lose a little on the margin just so I know a quality unit has been installed. 'Lectricity is something I won't cut corners on.
Just follow some of the panelboard tune up tips here and you'll have trouble free service.
Russ

lightman1

nadams wrote: »

Be educated! http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

There ya go, folks! Please heed the sage advice on this page.

Systems

lightman1 wrote: »

Federal-Pacific. Cheap-****, no-count product.

Mine is Federal- Pioneer, are they related?

tom t

lightman1, would you like to take a ride up to pa. i need a dedicated line installed for me amps????????????????????????????????

Mazeroth

Well, I went to Lowes and bought another dual 20A breaker for my box. I installed the wires and put it in, only to realize the opening on the breaker with the metal clamps isn't as deep as my old one. It slides in and stays but it sticks out about a 1/4" more than the other breakers do. Is this the common way they're made now, or can I still find one that has the deeper clamps like mine does?

Again, thanks for all the input. It's greatly appreciated.