Receivers and Amps

liv4fam
liv4fam Posts: 311
edited November 2002 in Electronics
Why buy receivers then put amps with them?
Why not just buy a preamp and amp or buy a receiver that sounds good to you so you don't have to buy an amplifier.

I am confused in Philly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:
Post edited by liv4fam on
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,197
    edited November 2002
    O man..........what round will this be......I gotta read this.....
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • liv4fam
    liv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    This is going to be Rocky vs. THE WORLD
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,197
    edited November 2002
    Rocky Rocky Rocky Rocky Rocky Rocky............................
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    I would venture to say that the #1 reason, is budget.
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  • MxStYlEpOlKmAn
    MxStYlEpOlKmAn Posts: 2,116
    edited November 2002
    yeah i think people dont want to lay down cash for a pre/pro and not be able to get sound right then, so they just buy a receiver and upgrade later to another amp/s to improve the sound....just my guess
    Damn you all, damn you all to hell.......
    I promised myself
    No more speakers. None. Nada. And then you posted this!!!!
    Damn you all! - ATC
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  • liv4fam
    liv4fam Posts: 311
    edited November 2002
    Okay let me rephrase my question.

    I can see cost as an issue but why would someone buy a H/K 520 let's say and then go spend more money on a Sony TA-9000ES Amplifier (just as an example)

    My question is why not just take the money from buying a receiver and amplifier and put it towards maybe a better sounding receiver altogether?

    It seems like a lot of people buy the Harmon Kardon and then put Carver or Rotel amps with em. Why not just buy the Rotel receiver and be done with it or buy a Carver preamp and amp or there ULTIMATE RECEIVER.

    Personally, I would rather have the real thing.
    Like take me for example, I own the B&K AVR-307 and I love it to death but I wouldn't dream of putting a CLASSE' amplifier with it even though it sounds better. I would just buy the Classe but I can't afford so I like what I have.

    Why doesn't anybody use the gear the way it was meant to be used.

    I just don't get it.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,197
    edited November 2002
    I've been asking that question for awhile.I'm not sure if you will get a straight answer,it always turns into a pissing match.I hope this time around we can all talk about it civil.

    I like liv4fam like to use things the way they are designed.I owned a Denon avr3801 as my fairwell to receivers........I wouldn't dream of adding amps to it.I could of kept it as a Preamp,it did everything as one I needed it,but I feel using a pre amp is the way to go if your looking at seperates.2 channel guys don't do this, why do the home theater guys do it?

    I'm sold on seperates now that I have owned them for awhile,I can't see going back to receivers.I like the pure clean more powerfull sound.The receiver as a preamp I feel does a poor job as a substitute.please no pissing matches...just my opnion.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,592
    edited November 2002
    Perhaps two channel guys are more interested in quality over quantity.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    Originally posted by liv4fam


    Why doesn't anybody use the gear the way it was meant to be used.


    My HK has pre-outs. It is meant to be used that way.

    I'd take a receiver/amp combo over a lone receiver ALL DAY. With the exception of a few flagship receivers. Even then it's comforting to know that seperate amps are feeding my speakers a healthy diet.

    I can always replace the reciever with a pre.

    Amps built into receivers tend to not perform as well as stand alone amps. In my experience/opinion at least.

    Having a receiver as a pre leaves the future open ended, and usually sounds and performs better than just a receiver.

    A receiver/amp combo gives the best of both worlds. The features and flexability of a reciever, with the power and dynamics of seperates.

    I figure a big time installer with sooo much experience would know things like this? Seems like logic and common sense to me.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited November 2002
    Well said Phuz. Show me decent, common man - affordable pre's (ht), I'll take em. (all day - all about - in my sole)

    'Till then, long live King Wannabe.

    Cheers,
    Rooster
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    A question for the installers:

    Lets say hypotheticaly that HK makes a DD/DTS 7.1 pre.

    What would be the reason for me to get rid of my reciever and replace that with the pre?
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  • scottvamp
    scottvamp Posts: 3,277
    edited November 2002
    My HK has pre-outs. It is meant to be used that way.
    Ya, my Onkyo has preouts for every channel. I wanted more power so I bought a Onkyo 2ch. amp that was specifically made for it.
    The other simple answer is that people grow there systems over time. I mean I have said many times with many things "If I could only get full value for all this stuff(equipment) and start over". ;)
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2002
    Very simple answer. Most people that are new to HT or even 2 channel go out to their local big box store and buy whatever is on sale. They have no idea that seperates exist until they do their homework after they have made their purchase. Sometimes they stumble upon a website after the fact and become painfully aware that much better sound and better equipment can be had for not much more than their original investment.
    For others they buy what they can afford at the time and upgrade as their buget and/or taste improves.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,197
    edited November 2002
    Phuz,
    No need for name calling ok Brother???Peace man.....

    I will answer your questions since you addresed it to Installers....
    I'd take a receiver/amp combo over a lone receiver ALL DAY. With the exception of a few flagship receivers. Even then it's comforting to know that seperate amps are feeding my speakers a healthy diet.
    This is what I don't understand....why not just buy the pre amp right off the bat?I know I'm answering with a question but it's puzzling...from my point of view,since I install and have owned both......receivers are an afordable way to get alot for youre money in features,not sound quality......seperates are a way to get better fedelity.......thats how I feel in short.
    I can always replace the reciever with a pre.
    Again I'm left somewhat speechless.I understand the grow into your system and all, but once you realize that seperates are more up your alley then a receiver is,now at this point do you buy a new receiver down the road or go for the pre amp????I'm really trying to understand......
    Amps built into receivers tend to not perform as well as stand alone amps. In my experience/opinion at least.
    I totally agree.for alot of reasons.....I have found only 2 well 3 receivers that perform like seperates....B&K avr307,Rotel rsx1065 and Sunfire Ultimate receiver.......all real bad **** receiver with a sound quality like seperates....the finest of the receivers as I feel.Sound quality not features.
    A receiver/amp combo gives the best of both worlds. The features and flexability of a reciever, with the power and dynamics of seperates.
    I can see this,I thought of it for a brief moment in time when I owned the Denon avr 3801.I though hell I could add the Rotel rmb1075 and Improve my sound quality,but after hearing the rsp1066 mated with the rmb1075,I knew that using a receiver as a preamp wasn't going to complete my quest.I also have tried this in the past with my own gear.......I owned a B&K st140 and I felt it made 2 channel listening better,but ruined my home theater experience as the B&K amp didn't match the internal amps of my Yamaha,Pioneer Elite and Denon..all I ran with that amp and removed it for theater.I even compared the Denon avr3801 as a pre vs the Rotel rc-971 on my RB860BX amp.......it was no compare.
    I figure a big time installer with sooo much experience would know things like this? Seems like logic and common sense to me.
    This is sarcastic and uncalled for but I will still address the question.
    We don't mix and match systems what we help build or completely build.If a receiver is the right peice for the job, no amps go with it for theater,multiroom is a totally different story.
    If seperates are the right peices for the job, then they go,pre amp and amp matching...I never installed 2 different pre amps and amps that where sold new.Used I have and had bad results.Krell and Argon didn't match real well, the Krell preamp seemed to push the Argon amps harder then needed,lower volumes suffered.We had to swap out the Krell for a Lexicon...that worked better.......
    Remember I don't call out your opnions....there yours and I have no intention of discrediting them in anyway.I just want to understand where you guys come from.Phuz you seem to take offence about it,why?
    Lets say hypotheticaly that HK makes a DD/DTS 7.1 pre.
    What would be the reason for me to get rid of my reciever and replace that with the pre?
    AN easy question to answer and I bet most of you 2 channel guys and seperate users would agree........sound quality...less noise,cleaner sound.Thats the entire goal behind seperates I believe......it's better sound quality.If you did a side by side comparsion with a receiver and a pre amp,what one would you think would sound better and why??Thats pretty much what your asking right?

    I'm not saying adding an amp to a exsisteing receiver is wrong,I haven't heard steller results,in my system,or any other that I have listened to.I also feel the need for the pre amp.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    I didn't use the word "installer" in a bad way. :) I just wanted to let you know that it was directed towards you two. I didn't mean it in a bad or "namecalling" way.

    Why not buy a pre-amp right off the bat? Budget and availability. When I bought my HK, my budget was about $500. Tell me where I can get a decent pre and amps to match (5ch) for that price?

    "Grow into your system..."
    I'm not sure exactly what you meant. But I may get a Rotel receiver down the road and keep the amps with it. Or I might get a pre. That depends on my future budget and what I want. I'm happy right now with the HK. Someday I might want a pre, someday I might want a nicer reciever with the bells and whistles. I can't tell ya what I'll want in a year or two. Can you tell me what you are going to want in a year or two?

    We agreed on the reciever amps vs. seperate amps. Cool.

    I don't have the experience that you have with the pre amps and receivers that you mentioned. And right now, I'm really don't want/need it. A Rotel reciever or pre is not in my budget right now, so I'm not demoing or looking. Well I look at rotel.com once in a while and dream... but I'm not serious about it. :) I'm pretty happy with the sound I have now, and I have other things I need to get first before I start looking at superfluous stuff or upgrading for a minimal impact.

    Indeed that comment was sarcastic, but I think it was called for and a bit funny. :p liv4fam specificaly targeted myself and others who have setups like mine. And honestly I feel that if he had any sort of common sense or experience, he could answer the questions for himself. His questions and implications IMHO were offensive and insulting. Not only personally, but insulting the intelligence of those who choose to use recievers with amps, even if it's temporary.

    You said "if seperates are the right pieces for the job.."

    Can you tell me what the right pieces are for my apartment? How many people do you think would already agree that I've gone WAY overboard on what is needed for my little apartment? How about my next apartment? Or the house that I might be living in in 3 years? I'm trying to build a good quality all around system on a budget. So who's to say that I'm not doing a good job?

    As far as taking offence about it, I kinda already explained that. I think liv4fam was on the offensive first. So I returned.

    What I was getting at with the HK pre and reciever comparison is this. They would both use the same DACs and internal stuff. The only difference is the amps and the tuner. So what produces all the noise? The internal amps? The tuner? So I add seperate amps, so is the built in tuner that big of a deal?

    Again I don't mean to offend Dan, but again you have started throwing all sorts of brands around and almost went on and posted a review. I don't care about Krell, Argon, or Lexicon. If you like it so much, why don't you own it?

    So you and liv4fam like to have a pre. I'm glad that you've found what works for you. Why force it upon others or or point them (me) out as inferior because of our choices and budget?

    What kind of system did you have when you were 24?
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    Another note. To me liv4fam's questions sound like this.

    "OMG why haven't you spent $6000 on your system instead of $4000? I don't get it?"

    Or:

    "OMG why do you have a Toyota? You could have just saved up and gotten a Lexus! I don't get it?"

    The answer is simple.

    Becuase I need to get to work.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,197
    edited November 2002
    Phuz,
    relax my man.Like I said it's all go ,just wanted to understand the other side of the fence,liv4fam can explain what he means in his post.I know what he's getting at ,but I will allow him to explain for himself.
    "Grow into your system..."
    ok what this means is digging into your system, finding out whats hot and whats not.Then making decesions down the road on how to improve.Thats all.
    Can you tell me what the right pieces are for my apartment? How many people do you think would already agree that I've gone WAY overboard on what is needed for my little apartment? How about my next apartment? Or the house that I might be living in in 3 years? I'm trying to build a good quality all around system on a budget. So who's to say that I'm not doing a good job?
    Again dude relax,your doing real well and your system is really nice.( I even like your new rack)As far as the right peices for your apartment,thats whats left on you to deside.As for me,I can only give you advice on where to go from where your at based on what you own,like the Lsi's, they need really good amps to allow them to sing,it's up to you 2 figure out what you want.If your into what you own now and love it,leave it alone.
    Again I don't mean to offend Dan, but again you have started throwing all sorts of brands around and almost went on and posted a review. I don't care about Krell, Argon, or Lexicon. If you like it so much, why don't you own it?
    You need not to care about the products listed my me.I was just showing an example of what I have learned.I can't afford to own Krell,I wish I could,but it was just an example of my experience with the topic at hand.Please understand that.Sorry if it sounded any other way.remember I got a problem with my delivery,some of you guys have noted.I mean well;)
    What kind of system did you have when you were 24?
    No anywhere near as nice as yours thats for sure, but I had a nice little system.I owned a Sony 27 inch Trinitron Tv,Pioneer vsx3900s surround receiver,Pioneer ct-310( I think)dual tape deck,JVC S-VHS vcr,Pioneer PDM-60 6 disk cd player,Pinnicle sub sat speaker package,Monster M500 interconnects,Monstercable 12x2 xp PINK speaker wire for the front and 16x2 monster for the rear.Wood technologies stands for the mains and Vogel brackets for the rears,which where Baby Advents.I liked them little speakers.I had cable back then as well.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    Thanks Dan. And I am completely relaxed dude. I just love a good debate. :D
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited November 2002
    I think were all forgetiing that we had to start somewhere. To the more experienced members seeing a receiver with amps looks like a waste. Sometimes the upgrade path gets a little convaluted but in general we finally make it.

    Yes I am running an h/k with an external Amp but I did not have the speakers when I bought the receiver that I have now. Liv4fam and told me in the past, very delicatly I might add... heee heee, that my electronics outclassed my speakers and I should take a hard look at it. Well I guess someday I may do that but right now I'm satisfied with my speakers.

    Hind Sight is always 20/20
    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited November 2002
    Well, in the long run, if it's your money and your gear then I don't see the need to justify it to anyone to be honest.

    As far as the original question, it's basic common sense really. A logical, affordable path to upgrading.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • PETERNG
    PETERNG Posts: 918
    edited November 2002
    Just ask my son, Jimmy. I gave him the Sony ES 555 receiver, he still keep his class A Yamaha 300W amp to use for front speakers hookup via pre-out, he said not thing beat the performance and clarity of the sound when you litsenning to 2 channel stereo music. I think I will agree with that...
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    Originally posted by PETERNG
    Just ask my son, Jimmy. I gave him the Sony ES 555 receiver, he still keep his class A Yamaha 300W amp to use for front speakers hookup via pre-out, he said not thing beat the performance and clarity of the sound when you litsenning to 2 channel stereo music. I think I will agree with that...

    Exactly. I got my 2ch Rotel for just that reason. When I had decided to get the LSi15's I knew I needed some real power to push them, and I found a deal that I couldn't pass up.

    liv4fam can you tell my why this doesn't make sense?
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  • PETERNG
    PETERNG Posts: 918
    edited November 2002
    Originally posted by phuz


    I knew I needed some real power to push them, and I found a deal that I couldn't pass up.

    liv4fam can you tell my why this doesn't make sense?

    Phuz,I think you hit the nail on the head, thank you, the key word "real power", it if doesn't make sense to anyone, then life is ...whatever...
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  • carvinman1
    carvinman1 Posts: 62
    edited November 2002
    It made a huge difference when I added an Aragon 4004MKII to my Outlaw 1050 receiver to power my mains. I don't have any trouble with more power on the mains than on the other three channels. The Aragon makes my RT800i's sound damn nice.
    Danny
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