AVR as pre-pro or pre amp

apphd

I am trying to make a decision on my next upgrade. I am looking at a refurbished Denon 1907 from a Denon authorized dealer at a good price. Then soon after the first of the year add an amp, probably an EMO LPA1-2 or XP5. which I'm guessing will run me about $730 - $840 total. Or wait until March or so and order an EMO combo which right now LPA1 LMC1 $800 LPA1 MMC1 $1,175. I can not go the $$ for either combo right now. Also not sure what the pricing will be by the time March rolls around. So I quess my 2 questions are: 1. Is there usually plenty of the refurb Denons in the 1907 class available, to where I can wait to do anything and see what the new EMO prices are?
2. Would the 1907 make for a good pre or would I be, say 10X happier with an improvement a dedicated pre amp (LMC1-2, MMC1-2) could make?
Thanks in advance for your opinions.

john22614

I was using a mid priced Yamaha as a pre with my Anthem MCA 30 amp and thought I was satisfied.....until I tried out an Outlaw processor. It made a huge improvement in sound stage, transparency, sub tones and over all sound quality. So, I am not a fan of getting an AVR instead of a dedicated pre, especially if the cost is fairly close. But, if you are looking to buy from an on line dealer like Emotiva or Outlaw make sure you read the forums about the product on their website before purchasing. Some of the models, including Emotiva, have performance issues, and it can be a pain shipping stuff back and forth even when, as in my case, customer service from Outlaw was very accomodating. The Outlaw 970, for example, had "no sound" problems that their firmware upgrades never really fixed, so I sent mine back for the 990 which is much more stable. I ended up being very happy with the 990....but ther overall experience was a bit of a hassle that I could have avoided if I had done more research before making my initial on line purchase. Having said that, you can definetly get more for your money when shopping on line.....just make sure you thouroghly check out the model you're interested in before buying.

apphd

Thanks John. So far it sounds like the LMC1 issues have been resolved with the latest firmware. Of course when the LMC2 is released who knows what if any problems might come with it. Since HDMI is no big need for me (nice idea, just not stable yet) I will probably want to stick with the LMC1 if available. With the EMO 40% upgrade I am thinking even if EMO LMC1 stock is gone there should be a lot of used available. Just will not be sure if a used one will have the latest firmware. There has been a few posts lately with a HDMI problem on the MMC1 SAT HDMI output, but this may be isolated. But it sounds like the improvement would be enough that I need to stick with my Pro-Logic (4 ch) AVR a little longer. It will probably be easier to talk the wife into the purchase of a pre-amp/amp total price with the "it will sound better". Than it would be to tell her "it will sound better" for the AVR purchase, then hit her with that again later for an amp purchase. She just doen't get it:( lol

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dbaldus

I am also in a similar situation. I'm considering purchasing the Emotiva LPA-1 and would be using my Harman Kardon 247 as the pre for it.

Would my HK be a better pre than the Denon would, or is the general idea that dedicated pre's are better than using an AVR as a pre?

If so, what's the big difference? I thought this AVR was supposed to be good, and it has the pre-outs so it seems like it was made to do it (and I'm assuming to do it well, since it comes from HK)...

Sherardp

With the right choice in an AVR it could be used as a pre/pro. After all youre only allowing the AVR to process data from your sources, i.e CD, SA_CD, DVD etc. Im using a Sony 7100ES as a pre/pro and using external power amps to run my speakers. Again you have to make wise choices and demo the products. Just my thoughts anyway.

dbaldus

By "wise choices", do you just mean listening to the pair hooked up together or do you mean that I should just generally be choosing a high quality AVR (such as a Harman Kardon)?

apphd

dbaldus wrote: »

By "wise choices", do you just mean listening to the pair hooked up together or do you mean that I should just generally be choosing a high quality AVR (such as a Harman Kardon)?

+1 Does the processing improve significantly?

JoshParsons84

I'm also in the market for purchasing a good Pre/Pro. Problem is I don't know much about them and don't know who makes good ones for poor people like me.

cfrizz

What I noticed when I went from my Denon receiver to my Sunfire prepro was that I got to another level of clarity that wasn't there with my Denon.

It wasn't a day & night difference as it was when I added my amps, but it was there.

If you can afford to go with a prepro/amp combo do so. If not there will still be a significant and worthwhile improvement going with a receiver/amp combo.

john22614

If you are using or buying a separate amp, I see no reason to buy an AVR as a processor unless you plan to use the AVR's amp for a remote location. If not, you're paying for amplification in the AVR that you won't use, and secondly, you are denying yourself the use of a dedicated pre who's sole purpose is to organize and send pure signals to the amp. I noticed a huge difference in the sound stage, clarity and richness.....when I did an A/B test using my Yamaha pre outs with my amp.....it sounded kind of flat and tiny compared to the Outlaw. Granted, the Yamaha was only a $600 unit, but nevertheless, it convinced me. It is especially noticeable in stereo mode.....when I play music now, it sounds like it's just majically coming out of the air....you can barely tell where the speakers are....I'm telling ya, it's beautiful.

If you are buying a new amp and can't afford a new processor at the same time, than using your current AVR's pre outs makes a lot of sense because you will still notice a big improvement just by adding the amp. But, many of the on line companies like Outlaw, Emotiva, etc. offer combination discounts that are well worth taking advantage of if you can swing it.

If you don't have space in your rack for separates, or you prefer the convenience of having everything nicely combined in one unit without having to bother with a bunch of connecting cables, etc., a good quality AVR without a separate amp makes a lot of sense and there are many good ones on the market.

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dbaldus

Kex wrote: »

I would not put the harman/kardon 247 in the same boat as the Denon. I think my modest current harman/kardon 147 (rated at 40w/ch) does a much better job than the Denon 1803 or 3200 (both rated at 80w/ch). I think it just gets far more from my Polk Audio speakers, including the fabulous little MiniMonitors that I tried with it initially. It was also much easier to set up (but it is a lot newer).

I would expect you to get excellent results from your 247 with the LPA-1. Would they be as good as with the LMC-1? I don't know, but you will like it. There are other Club members that use harman/kardon receivers as their pre-amplifier and processor with excellent results. In fact, if my 147 had pre-outs, I would be asking the same question as you: will the LMC-1 be better? My Denon 3200 has pre-out connections for the front three channels but I didn't hesitate to exclude it, even as a temporary solution, because I wanted to get the Emotiva combo discounts. If I owned a harman/kardon 235/245/247, the decision would have been a more difficult one to justify since the LMC-1 does not have all the features and ease of use of the harman/kardon IMO (no EzSet/EQ for example, an external HDMI switcher, no auto-dimming of the front panel ...). That being said, there are also a few owners of the LMC-1 who seem to think it is an excellent performer and none have yet described disappointment with its ability as a processor. As another Cllub member put it recently: I prefer b@lls over bells and whistles any day of the week! When I get my Emotiva combo in a week or so, I'll be very keen to test my perception of musical performance.

...and I'll look forward to hearing your experience here

apphd

Kex wrote: »

I would not put the harman/kardon 247 in the same boat as the Denon. I think my modest current harman/kardon 147 (rated at 40w/ch) does a much better job than the Denon 1803 or 3200 (both rated at 80w/ch). I think it just gets far more from my Polk Audio speakers, including the fabulous little MiniMonitors that I tried with it initially. It was also much easier to set up (but it is a lot newer)....

Interesting. This was kind of the info I am looking for. Are your comments on the Denon's something you base on personal exp. with those 2 or Denon in general? What are some other AVR's that may pass as respectable pre amps.? I can't do anything until later anyway, as far as adding an amp if I go the AVR path so I have lots of time to look.
BTW to all that have posted thanks for your thoughts you are helping me update my knowledge. My last audio purchase was all done with research done with "Stereo Review" and "Audiophile" magazine reading. This makes it a lot easier but I still want to make a move that I will be happy with at the best price I can get. Same as 20 years ago.

Ron Temple

apphd wrote: »

Interesting. This was kind of the info I am looking for. Are your comments on the Denon's something you base on personal exp. with those 2 or Denon in general? What are some other AVR's that may pass as respectable pre amps.? I can't do anything until later anyway, as far as adding an amp if I go the AVR path so I have lots of time to look.
BTW to all that have posted thanks for your thoughts you are helping me update my knowledge. My last audio purchase was all done with research done with "Stereo Review" and "Audiophile" magazine reading. This makes it a lot easier but I still want to make a move that I will be happy with at the best price I can get. Same as 20 years ago.

I use the HK245 as a pre/pro. When my 235 took a dump and I was waiting for HK to replace it, I decided enough HKs and plugged a Denon 2307CI in it's place. I expected to sell the HK when it came, but I never really liked the sound of the Denon except for HT. The HK in 6channel Direct mode smoked it. The Denon always sounded compressed for music even in Pure Direct mode. So the Denon went back. Ben used one and liked it quite a bit until finally adopting an Outlaw, but IIRC, it wasn't an immediate night and day winner. I'm not in any huge hurry to upgrade though I feel that the Emotiva/Outlaw options are significantly better. So I doubt you'll be disappointed with an HK 2xx pre/pro.

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