bi-wiring via surr. back/ zone 2

obieone
obieone Posts: 5,077
edited December 2008 in Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions
I've got a Denon 1905/785, 7.1 recvr. It has a separate amp. for surr. back or zone 2. Question's: 1. can I bi-wire from these channels or is it even noticable? If yes, A ch. on top posts & zone 2 on bottom posts ? OR
3. zone 2 top posts, and speaker level thru sub to bottom posts?
I just picked some T90EB's and am trying to tweak them without getting that puff of blue smoke in the living room. Thanks for any feedback;)
I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • John K.
    John K. Posts: 822
    edited December 2007
    Obie, welcome. The first point is that you've got the terminology a bit tangled-up: you use the term "bi-wiring", but it appears that you're actually thinking of "bi-amping", since you think that the 1905 has a "separate amp" for the surround back or zone 2 speakers. This is incorrect; the 1905 and nearly all other receivers have only one amplifier, which contains several separate channels of output transistors which operate as valves to measure out the power required to the connected speakers. Connecting previously unused surround back/zone 2 output transistors to either the top or bottom posts of your speaker can't create any more power than the one power supply section in your receiver had before; the same amount of power would simply be fed to the speaker through two sets of output transistors rather than one. Actual bi-amplification requires two separate amplifiers with separate power supply sections and separate external crossovers before each amplifier to be effective.

    So, although you wouldn't be getting a "puff of blue smoke", neither would you be getting any benefit. Relax and enjoy your music.
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited December 2007
    thanks for clearing that up. I think I'm done trying to tweak my system. I'm just going to enjoy it.
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • cambir
    cambir Posts: 1,046
    edited December 2007
    refer to page 42/43 of your receiver's manual (http://usa.denon.com/AVR-1905_785_ownersmanual.pdf) to consider figurations for a zone 2 (also noted on the product sheet).

    I would argue that with this Denon and many others, you can actually seperately power a set of speakers from your surround back/zone 2 terminals. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the end result would be bi-amplification?

    However, I think you may run into more of a problem attempting to play the same source on both zone 1 and zone 2 at the same time as you have to select a specific source to play out of zone 2. Your zone 2 volume control may also be independent.
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  • John K.
    John K. Posts: 822
    edited December 2007
    No Cambir, despite any language in the manual, as my previous reply detailed, simply connecting unused channel output transistors to one section of a speaker isn't actually bi-amping. The transistors don't have any power of their own; they simply distribute the power from the one power supply section. Two separate amplifiers would be needed.
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  • cambir
    cambir Posts: 1,046
    edited December 2007
    Why would Denon use this language if it was not able to do exactly that? This implies those channels do actually have power of their own.

    Denon 1905 Product Sheet:
    "The Denon AVR-1905's Power Amplifier Assign function let's you assign the Surround Back amplifier channels when the system is not configured for 7.1 to instead drive the Multi-room Zone 2 speakers, with 80 Watts per channel output power, while still providing 5 discrete amplifier channels to drive all speakers in the 5.1 configured home theater room."

    I have looked into this option for powering my zone 2. This allows you to power a 5.1 in zone 1 (main room) AND an additional 2-channel in zone 2 (another room). If you can power a zone 2 with an independent 80 watts, then you could, in theory, assign that power to whatever speakers you want.

    I would say it's not really worth the effort, and not true quality bi-amping, but I would still argue that it is possible to do with this Denon. Only way to find out is to try. Has anyone attempted this zone 2 option with their Denon?
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  • Kex
    Kex Posts: 5,205
    edited December 2007
    John K. wrote: »
    No Cambir, despite any language in the manual, as my previous reply detailed, simply connecting unused channel output transistors to one section of a speaker isn't actually bi-amping. The transistors don't have any power of their own; they simply distribute the power from the one power supply section. Two separate amplifiers would be needed.
    +1 ... This is exactly right, IMHO.

    P.S. Shame on Denon for using such ambiguous language.
    Alea jacta est!
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited December 2007
    I would like to thank all those that replied to this thread. But, as it turns out, after setting the T90's thru the sub, adjusting vol/ LFE, I get bloody ears @-10db with another 25db to go!!!
    Sooo... as far as amplification goes, I think I'm ALL SET!
    tHANKS.
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,729
    edited December 2007
    You're getting bloody ears at -10dB because the AVR is running out of steam. You don't have another usable 25dB to go. Every AVR or power amp has a power band or range of usable power. Just because a volume scale goes from 0 to 100 (example), it doesn't mean you'll get clean power at the 100 setting, you won't, it'll be nothing but distortion. I would venture to say that -10dB is about as high as your AVR can go without going into the clipping (distortion) range because right on the edge of clipping is when people's ears start to bleed.

    Anyway, it seems that you're happy, enjoy.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • soundstage3000
    soundstage3000 Posts: 1
    edited December 2007
    I just bought the rti12's I have a pioneer vsx74txvi powering them am I benefitting from biamping or just hooking them up normal Thanks in advance
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  • Chitown_Badger
    Chitown_Badger Posts: 66
    edited December 2008
    I've got the new Pioneer 1018, which I believe has separate amps for all channels...I'm currently running a 5.1 setup. Any thoughts on the benefits of biamping my RTi10s via the surround back hookups?
    Fronts: Polk RTi10
    Center: Polk CSi A4
    Surround: Polk FXi3
    Sub: Dayton 100
    AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH
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  • Parachoute
    Parachoute Posts: 88
    edited December 2008
    this thread is one year old and the answer is just above;)
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  • curved
    curved Posts: 664
    edited December 2008
    Chitown_Badger wrote: »
    I've got the new Pioneer 1018, which I believe has separate amps for all channels...I'm currently running a 5.1 setup. Any thoughts on the benefits of biamping my RTi10s via the surround back hookups?

    Nope
    Living Room:....................[HTML] [/HTML] Zone 2 (Workout Room):
    AVR - Yamaha RX-V757......JBL 4312 Pro Monitors
    Pre - Nak CA-5
    AMP - Adcom 555 (Main)
    Main - Polk RTI8**/RTiA5
    AMP - Adcom 545II (Center)
    Center - Polk CSiA4**
    Sub - Snell Basis 300:p......Zone 3 (Outside)
    CD - Yamaha CDC-555.......Def Tech AW5500
    TV - Pani TH-42PZ80U
    BR - LG BD390
    Monster HTS1600 Power Center
    Dedicated Circuit - (2) 20amp, (1) 15amp
    Ben's IC, Canare 4S11
    **Dayton and Sonicap Caps with Mills Resistors**
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  • Chitown_Badger
    Chitown_Badger Posts: 66
    edited December 2008
    curved wrote: »
    Nope

    Nope meaning no thoughts, or nope meaning no benefit? If there are separate amps for all channels, would I not have power sitting there unused right now?
    Fronts: Polk RTi10
    Center: Polk CSi A4
    Surround: Polk FXi3
    Sub: Dayton 100
    AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH
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  • tcrossma
    tcrossma Posts: 1,301
    edited December 2008
    Chitown_Badger wrote: »
    Nope meaning no thoughts, or nope meaning no benefit? If there are separate amps for all channels, would I not have power sitting there unused right now?

    Are you talking about the VSX-1018? I just looked it up, and I don't see any mention of multiple power supplies. And at 29lbs and $599 retail I wouldn't expect there to be.
    Speakers: Polk LSi15
    Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
    Amp: Pass Labs X-150
    CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
    Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
    Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
    TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
    Cartridge:Denon DL-160
    Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH
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  • Chitown_Badger
    Chitown_Badger Posts: 66
    edited December 2008
    tcrossma wrote: »
    Are you talking about the VSX-1018? I just looked it up, and I don't see any mention of multiple power supplies. And at 29lbs and $599 retail I wouldn't expect there to be.

    Yes. I could be wrong on the power supplies though. I searched the manual and didn't see anything either. If there aren't independent power supplies, I won't even waste the cord biamping.:o
    Fronts: Polk RTi10
    Center: Polk CSi A4
    Surround: Polk FXi3
    Sub: Dayton 100
    AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH
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