The dichotomy of our hobby..

TroyD

I was yakking w/F1 via email about the hobby....specifically the advent of mp3 and other sorts of 'lowfi' medium and he thought this was worthy of posting.

While I have no issue with low resolution (hey, I like my iPod too)....the proliferation of it has, IMHO, dangerous consequences for the pursuit of high fidelity and I don't think the industry is catching on to it.

The hobby is suffocating itself. Sure, there are enough well-healed audiophiles right now to support buying rigs that cost 50K and up....but, they started with a basis in some sort of hifi (because there didn't used to be an alternative) background. 20-30 years ago, the weak point was the gear more than the medium...and the audiophiles of today, guys in thier 50's and 60's with that sort of disposable cash are seeking to upgrad the gear to match the medium.

Now, the generation that is viewing mp3 as the standard, it's not the same. The paradigm then becomes fundamentally flawed. You can hook up a 100k rig to an mp3 player and no matter what, it will sound like **** because the format sucks from jump street. So, as i see it, 10, 20, 30 years down the road...hifi faces extinction because the the source is so fundamentally flawed that fidelity to it becomes moot.

BDT

dudeinaroom

I guess it's just our responsibility to make sure it lives on. We have to show the younger generations what's up. Yeah, we are not going to convert every one,but even 1 will make a difference. I really don't think high end equipment will become extinct, just more expensive. I can see a lot of recording professionals,professionals musicians, "real" artist and "real" bands going the route of high end. I grew up with boom boxes and walkmans but always wanted the high end, even with out any sort of mentor to guide me. I think there will always be a kid that know that there is better out there and want it.

TroyD

I don't know though....

Again, I see the problem as being the medium itself. In the past the LP (and later the CD even) are medium that were/are worth of producing sound that merits high end gear.

With mp3 etc....I don't see, and I could be wrong, where it would warrant high end reproduction....in short, in the past, it was always the gear that was the weak point. In the future, I see the opposite being true. A paradigm shift, if you will.

BDT

Early B.

High end audio is not in jeopardy. In fact, there are probably more "audiophiles" today than ever before because the economic barriers to entry have decreased tremendously. In fact, I predict that the audiophile community will grow by leaps and bounds over the next generation due to advances in technology. Technology will ensure that costs remain low. A good example is high definition DVDs. Although it is video, the quality of the audio has likewise improved, and high definition audio will set a new standard for the average Joe. In addition, computer-based music systems will enhance the sound quality of music. Hell, even radio is going HD. Let's face it -- computers, X-boxes, satellite radios, and DVD players sound far better than the boomboxes that many of us grew up listening to. Nevertheless, high end audio as a hobby is one-half high fidelity and one-half snobbery/egotism. Admit it -- you like to show off our gear, don't you? That's not gonna change.

There will always be a group of folks who seek better sound quality, and the younger generation will join in enthusiastically.

tonyb

Gotta go along with Early on this one.You think maybe years ago when your folks were spinning records and the 8-track player came about,they didn't think the same way?
May take this generation alittle longer to catch on to sound quality.Believe me,once they get into the workplace and make some coin,they'll run to hi-fi.

Ricardo

I do agree that audiophiles will be an extint species over the years. With the exception of a very few number, how many kids below 20 yrs have any interest in the "sound quality"? (Trey being an exception, of course). Most only care about convenience and db's.

There's 4 people living in my house. Three of them think I'm crazy/stupid/retarded because (as they say it) "how complex I make a simple thing like listening to music"

They just don't get it. They might agree that the sound is "better".....but it is just not important for them.

jdhdiggs

Troy:

Another thing to think about is that as codecs become more efficient and more and more data can be stored in smaller and smaller form factor, the trend could reverse. If your i-pod had the bit-for-bit recording of the original digital master file and you could put 1,000,000 of those recordings on an i-pod, well then high fi is back.

Theoretically, the future media could surpass anything we have now by all measures possible.

cfrizz

EB hit the nail on the head!

The technology has continued to evolve & get better & better & will continue to do so. Smaller, better, clearer, portable. So long as people are able to access their music where & when they want they will be happy.

It's not about the gear, its about the music. Change & adapt or stagnate & die. The choice is ours to make.

Systems

Digital music will improve with storage space and bandwidth period. As a guy who got into "computer" music at the beginning (back when midi was hot). You were lucky to be able to store 5 CD's on your hard drive (aka wave)... You can watched a clear history in the IT world of the slow transfer to video that has a direct coalition with bandwidth and storage. Soon we will see movies and such go from media to "downloading". When that happens, I suspect you will see the upper end Audio open up for download. The ability to download high lossless quality music (aka very huge). As solid state memory and micro hard drives increase capacity, you will be able to play these huge files.

Give it a few years and I think Digital music will be ready. I have enough storage myself that I burn all of my new stuff to .wav files. wave files on my system sounds exponentially better then mp3's (and I burned them at rates higher then 192K).

In 5 years I suspect we can all commonly download lossless music to play on our systems

Face

My biggest gripe with the direction gear is going is how Bose has such a large hold on the market. Brainwashing at it's best.

treitz3

Convenience = Compromise in sound.

I have yet to hear a format based upon convenience come close to the fidelity, dynamics and overall reproduction of music, lossless included. LP's, CD's, SACD's are where it's at in terms of accurate reproduction of music.

It is sad that an entire generation, possibly more are being introduced to music on sub par [to audiophiles] mediums, but when those folks who have been listening to MP3's and what not for years finally stumble across a great sounding rig with an appropriate source, the resurgence of high fidelity may come again. I hope, at least.

The fact that the industry doesn't seem to be catching on is a scary albeit true observation that I wish would stop dead in it's tracks. The industry needs to keep pursuing higher fidelity, both in recordings and the gear, otherwise when and if John Q. Public starts to demand higher fidelity, the industry will be caught with their pants down because the focus of what they have been concentrating on is convenience, and not sound. That my friend, is a shame.

Call me hardcore, but I can't enjoy Ipods or MP3's. If the sound doesn't sound live, or at the very least decent enough for playback on a higher fidelity rig, then I just flat out don't want to hear it. There's just no "enjoying" the music for me because the part of the music that moves you, makes you get goosebumps and gets you "into" the music is *poof* gone. If it's not high fidelity it's just background noise to me and not the experience of "music" as it is expected to be brought to my ears.

MGPK

Myself, I'm ambivelant to the direction that hi-fi is going nowadays.

After being in audio/video sales for the past 15 years and setting up HT systems for 5 years privately, I can honestly say that society is not keeping up with the technology coming forth. The majority of the population belongs to the herd mentality and will almost believe anything that is said to them as long as their is some quasi form of authority or authenticity that backs up certain statements. I don't know how many times that customers have come in to my store to repeat some "facts" that some 18 year old kid has told them at a competitor and because of the salespersons age, they believe that the youth has all the answers, and then the damage control begins.

As for the quality of audio, you can blame the mainstream manufacturers of todays A/V gear for the downward spiral of appreciation of good audio. Most people don't want to know all the codecs, all the different means of connection for optimization of components or to take the time to understand what really is good audio. They want to have it plugged in and have someone spoonfeed them the operations of the system and let them be at it. Hell, I would have to say that 75% of my customers don't even take the manual out of the packaging (RTFM mean anything to anyone?). Like I said, the mainstream manufacturers have done a great job of fooling people with the advent of HTiB's as to what good sound is. To me, HTiB's are the biggest scourge in the audio industry, the are like mini-systems with a bass module and five tiny speakers that are destined for the landfill within 5 years of purchase.

As for the future of audio, it's about compromise. Compromise quality sound for the dollar outlayed for the purchase. And it comes down to integrity. I know there are a lot of people who believe in tweaks like cables and such, but if you witnessed the BS that manufacturers instill in neophyte salespeople to sell their products, you would be disgusted. I'm not saying that these companies in whole are bad, but the salespeople are like the customers, they will believe everything that is spoonfed to them without checking up on the authenticity of the source or learning the science of A/V.

Early B.

I don't understand the doomsday scenarios re: high end audio. There are more "high end" speakers, tube amps, CDPs, etc. being sold now than ever before, and there's no reason to believe the trend won't continue.

And yes, the media will change from CDs to computer downloads. So what? As technology advances, the format shouldn't make any difference at all. The majority of "audiophiles" setting up computer rigs right now swear by them, and this is just the beginning.

Embrace the change, fellas. It's coming, like it or not. And believe me, we'll find plenty of ways to extract the best sound from whatever comes on the market. This was done with LP's, CDs, cassettes, etc., so there's no reason why it won't be done with streaming audio. I'm looking forward to it. In the next couple of years, my source and preamp will be a computer!

MGPK

Yeah, you can say that their is an evolution in media delivery, but history has shown that convenience has taken over quality. We have great advances in sound due to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, but the majority want to see those advances and not hear them. People can instantly see the quality of 1080p, but those same people could not justify upgrading their soundsystem for the new lossless codecs available for that medium. It's all about instant gratification and the eyes have the ears beat by miles. I have witnessed many times customers oohhing and aahhhinng over TV's and when they made their purchasing decision for that television, they will use their same crappy HTiB to listen to the audio. Look how well SACD and DVD-A conquered the market.

AndyGwis

I think high end audio will continue to grow and prosper. There will always be more people looking for better sound, especially with music being disseminated online, through burning, etc. more and faster than ever before.

If people like the way their music sounds on an iPod and are given an opportunity to hear it in a better way, they will pursue it. So, if 5% of people that listen to music are audiophiles, then audiophiles as a group will continue to grow as music listeners continue to grow.

I used to love my MP3 player (and still do for working out), but still found may way to 2-channel and even some vinyl through my audio journey.

If you make good music, people will spend money to hear it on the best equipment around.

fatchowmein

Mp3 caught on because of Napster. Not only was the music free, you could search the world wide catalog of music and it became a social networking club. Back then, most folks were on dialup so a 5mb song was better than waiting over an hour for a 50mb wav version and good luck downloading the entire album. Also, storage medium was expensive, a 6GB hard drive was a luxury item when it came out, but a portable music player like the Rio was very expensive but could only hold a handful of songs so most of us (college & younger) were content with listening to music on our lousy computer speakers. Eventually, some of us moved away from mp3 but the majority of folks are still using that format especially now that the manufacturers have produced everything under the sun to support the mp3 format.

As I visit friends and family during the holiday season, I notice most do not have a dedicated music system. The majority of units I see are home theatre in a box to go with the medium size TV. Some have the 50+ inch TV's but the majority spend their money on getting the largest set within their budget. Sound is an afterthought.

As the HD dust settles down and people buy the TV and format they will own for awhile, eventually they'll start looking at upgrading the HTiB to something better to capture the newer audio formats. Also, retailers will begin to focus on the audio portion as sales for bigger and bigger tv's slow down and the format wars end with hopefully a clear winner. But for now, clearly the focus is 1) high def tv and 2) hd-dvd vs br (watching and waiting). Even that is muddled. When I see somebody at work excited over a HDTV purchase, I always ask 720p, 1080i, or 1080p but most cannot even answer that question.

I recall somebody here mentioned the death of not hi-fi but mid-fi and I agree. Once the TV debate is over, we'll probably see a return to mid-fi and a greater interest in hi-fi as the mid-fi'er's move up to hi-fi. Most folks just don't jump from HTiB to hi-fi. Until then, I hope flac takes center stage and technology gets better to produce better sound, better recording, better formats, at a lower price point and a smaller package. I know quite a few folks and allot of wives grimace at 5.1 and go to outright pain when I mention 7.1 or a dedicated 2 channel rig.

treitz3

fatchowmein wrote: »

Sound is an afterthought.

Systems

"Sound is an afterthought."

Well, it is probalby true that on 99% of the devices out there in the world right now it wouldnt matter if you were playing a mp3 over a wav (aka things like ipods).

I-SIG

Not to hijack a little but I could watch a movie far more intently on 19 inch screen with big, quality sound not the opposite.

Wes

hearingimpared

Is it possible to save a non-compressed well engineered/mixed piece of music on an ipod or mp3? If it is then I don't think the problem is the medium. If my understanding of these new fangled gadgets:D:rolleyes: the less compression the less can be fit on the harddrives.

I have some high performance vinyl reissues of Green Day for instance that absolutely sounds like **** because it is so compressed, why they put that to 180 gm vinyl is beyond me. I have the four LP set of Stadium Arcadium by the Red Hot Chile Peppers and it sounds even worse. I think the problem is at the source, the recording studios. If you make a compressed master, that music will never sound good.

This is a fast paced instant gratification world we live in. I think audiophiles who start out in their teens or 20s are just plain lucky to do so. Most audiophiles are that because of mellowing with age and having the means to do so. When I was in my 20 I was an audiophile but when my wife called me with that look on her face (which was often back then) I dropped all the records and gear and went running to her.:o When the boys called for a card game I was there, when the crowd called to go dancing with the wives I was there. . . I spent less time with my gear back then. Thirty years later I spend a lot more time listening to music on some really good gear.

treitz3

treitz3 wrote:

The industry needs to keep pursuing higher fidelity, both in recordings and the gear, otherwise when and if John Q. Public starts to demand higher fidelity.....

HearingImpaired wrote:

I have some high performance vinyl reissues of Green Day for instance that absolutely sounds like **** because it is so compressed, why they put that to 180 gm vinyl is beyond me. I have the four LP set of Stadium Arcadium by the Red Hot Chile Peppers and it sounds even worse. I think the problem is at the source, the recording studios. If you make a compressed master, that music will never sound good.

Frustrating, isn't it?

markmarc

The average age of those who own a rig continues to go up. Just look in any college campus dorm, the number of rigs has declined dramatically. Most of the music being played is severely compressed, so that much of the sound has permanently disappeared due to lossy codecs.
But there is hope, if each audio hobbyist just takes the time to bring one young person into the fold audio will be renewed. It's up to each of us gang, time to mentor the next generation.
I have been given approval to start a music/equipment appreciation club at my school. So far, 19 students have requested to join.

hearingimpared

markmarc wrote: »

The average age of those who own a rig continues to go up. Just look in any college campus dorm, the number of rigs has declined dramatically. Most of the music being played is severely compressed, so that much of the sound has permanently disappeared due to lossy codecs.
But there is hope, if each audio hobbyist just takes the time to bring one young person into the fold audio will be renewed. It's up to each of us gang, time to mentor the next generation.
I have been given approval to start a music/equipment appreciation club at my school. So far, 19 students have requested to join.

That is awesome. My 10 year old just took up the alto sax and is a natural. I have him in front of the rig everynight for at least one LP and he really gets into the music. Everytime I take the top off a piece of gear or rewire something he is right there with me. My 24 year old is into it but just like me at his age, his girl, clubbing, football games etc etc take that chunk of time out that would go to just grooving to the tunes.

fatchowmein

hearingimpared wrote: »

Is it possible to save a non-compressed well engineered/mixed piece of music on an ipod or mp3? If it is then I don't think the problem is the medium. If my understanding of these new fangled gadgets:D:rolleyes: the less compression the less can be fit on the harddrives.

You can save wave files on the iPod. Mp3 is a compression, lossy technology. There's no such thing as an uncompressed mp3.

I think there's a law of diminishing returns on drive size for portable players. Having 30 to 80GB of music on an iPod is next to impossible to scan. You'll be spending most of your time creating playlists from your pc with your iPod attached. Navigating 80GB of music is not fun. Doable but not fun.

Yes, less compression means less space on your drive which is a problem if you have a 4GB player but at 30gb and up, you only have a problem if your iPod is your only means of storing all your music. But, considering the reliability factor of the iPods, you'd be suicidal not to have all your music backed up elsewhere. The ideal situation would be to keep all your music on your pc or external hard drive and move whatever music you want to your player and rotate out as needed/wanted.

RuSsMaN

I miss my Silvertone.

avguytx

Damn, Russ...just how old are you?

Face

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvertone

fatchowmein

avguytx wrote: »

Damn, Russ...just how old are you?

Russman is really John Oldman from The Man from Earth (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/). He's a cro-magnon living among us.

PolkThug

The new kids have it right! They enjoy the music, and don't waste hours trying to 'critically listen' to the sound that a piece of wire is supposed to make.

:D:D

PolkThug

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I miss my Silvertone.

'The Canadian band Chad Allan and The Silvertones, which would go on to become The Guess Who, took its name from this line of instruments. Pete Townshend would employ them in live performance with The Who for the purposes of smashing them.'

Rivrrat

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I miss my Silvertone.

I had an ole mustard color Sears Silvertone compact record player when I was a kid.

As long as people consider mp3's and the booming sound systems they put in their cars to be good sound, the hobby is going in the wrong direction.

Personally, I think the problem lies with nobody taking the time to sit down, relax, and just enjoy the music. Music has turned into background noise in peoples busy lives, and there's no point on spending bucks on what basically is good sounding musak.