Hershey Highway (NAFTA)
Comments
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Steve,
Busting a union is NOT that easy. IIRC, you have to have a certain percentage of the union membership vote to break the union and then it has to be approved by the Labor Board...it's not that easy.
I've been on both sides of the fence, but, I believe in capitalism and I do believe that what the unions are attempting to do in some industries (the UAW in particular) is killing the industry. Labor costs and obligations to union benefits are, irrefutably, skyrocketing the price of cars....it's a fact. The American steel industry, COLLAPSED, because it couldn't compete with foreign sources. The unions had a LOT to do with that. Those are facts that can not be disputed. Have not been disputed.
Plus, in the case of many of these unions, we aren't talking about paying pauper wages either.......the fact is though, when companies go down the tubes, EVERYONE loses. As I said, we aren't talking about robber barons of the industrial revolution. If you have a 40k, IRA, mutual fund, pension.....YOU are the investors who are depending on the profitability of these companies. Is it fair that YOU, who is investing (risking) his money to make your future plans take in in the shorts because some schmuck making 30 bucks an hour pressing a button is ENTITLED to a risk-free retirement and iron clad bennies for life?
I don't know about you guys, but I fall into that 401k/IRA investment crowd....last time I checked, I don't have 4 homes and a different color Hummer for every day of the week.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
Union=Socialism
That has to be one of the most off-base, make-no-sense comparisons I think I have ever heard.
First of all Socialism and Communism are two separate things. Socialism is a collective comprised soley of the people & Communism is the government controlling everything for the good of the people. The uniting of workers and/or labor is the basis for most every socialist ideal worldwide. Inculding the US. The oldest socialist organization in the US - The Socialist Labor Party started in 1876 as the Workingmen's Party of America. Anyone that thinks that unionism and socialism aren't related has their head in the sand.
Direct from the Socialist Party of the USA...from the SPUSA Statement of Principles :
THE SOCIALIST PARTY strives to establish a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control - a non-racist, classless, feminist socialist society...where working people own and control the means of production and distribution through democratically-controlled public agencies; where full employment is realized for everyone who wants to work; where workers have the right to form unions freely, and to strike and engage in other forms of job actions; and where the production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not for the private profit of a few. We believe socialism and democracy are one and indivisible. The working class is in a key and central position to fight back against the ruling capitalist class and its power. The working class is the major force worldwide that can lead the way to a socialist future - to a real radical democracy from below. The Socialist Party fights for progressive changes compatible with a socialist future. We support militant working class struggles and electoral action, independent of the capitalist controlled two-party system, to present socialist alternatives. We strive for democratic revolutions - radical and fundamental changes in the structure and quality of economic, political, and personal relations - to abolish the power now exercised by the few who control great wealth and the government. The Socialist Party is a democratic, multi-tendency organization, with structure and practices visible and accessible to all members"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
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hearingimpared wrote: »THis is what I mean when I say your thinking is like that of a insane person. Since when do the workers get to set the salaries of management? Oh yeah in communist countries. Union mentality is, "I'm ENTITLED" to your money and property!!! I'm entitled to lots of money for menial or minimal labor . . . insane!
Joe,that is not the union mentality here.Menial or minial work? C'mon Joe.I am in the cunstruction buisness and those 2 words don't apply here.Unions have their good sides and bad sides when the greed factor kicks in.They are not the evil that most think they are.If you said that to an Iron worker here who walks an 18 in. beam 50 stories up,you'd get your **** kicked in a heartbeat.
Yeah,it's easy to blame the Unions for company's going under but who brings up the piss poor managment or the handcuffs our governing bodies put on them?Regulations at the federal and local level,combined with the taxes are driving company's overseas.Tack on the ability to bring a lawsuit for serving a hot beverage...well...hot,doesn't help either.Reform needs to happen on multiple levels if this country wants to stay competetive.HT SYSTEM-
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I guess the answer to this whole mess depends on the answer to one question:
Which do you prefer: Radical Democracy or Radical Capitalism?
The answer to this very simple question should be put to a vote (majority rules). By the very nature of our freely elected government, we believe in radical Democracy. However, we fail to accomplish this as representative republic where all the choices that are given to the voters are carefully managed by Radical Capitalists. This is proven easily by the very existance of the electoral college which has the power to usurp the voice of the people.
Yep... Democracy and Capitalism are mutually exclusive. -
Much like rational thought and your posts are mutually exclusive.If you will it, dude, it is no dream.
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Radical anything is bad.But Ron does have a point on the electoral college.HT SYSTEM-
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rskarvan wrote:Yep... Democracy and Capitalism are mutually exclusive.
Well...according to Ron this whole United States of America thing is a failed experiment in democratic capitalism. Might as well bust it up and give all the land back to England, France and Spain. :rolleyes:"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Thanks thats a great reply!
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Radical anything is bad.But Ron does have a point on the electoral college.
The electoral college, or at least electoral votes, get a bad rep. The United States is a group of states, not a group of people. That's why we have electoral votes per state, not a common vote. Each state has its own government for a reason - because states may have (are SUPPOSED to be able to have) different views on major issues, and as such its the collective opinion of the states, not the collective opinion of the entire populace, that really matters at the Federal level.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
Actually, the founding fathers were afraid of unrestricted democracy (as well they should be)...that's why we are a republic.
As for the electoral college, it allows small states from being rendered completely irrelevant by larger states/population centeres.
JHC, where the hell were you guys in jr high school civics class, anyway? No offense, but some of you guys have no frigging idea about the country/political system you live under.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
I have an idea. Management should be compensated at absolutely no more than 200% of the rate that they pay their very lowest paid worker (per annum). And, no games should be allowed to BIN the lowest paid workers as "temporary/contract/etc" to skew management salaries upwards. There is no I in team.
wow... there's another feather to stick in your retarded comment hat. Please, if your ideas are this off the wall, you really do belong in another country, not the land of the free.
Why don't we just let the goverment take over all private business and everyone's income, that way we can pay everyone the same amount, plus or minus the 200% you think is fair. I'm sure that would just motivate the hell out of everyone, right? :rolleyes:
You do realize what you are saying right? I can't believe anyone with half a brain would think such government policies would do anything but destroy a country. -
By the way, just for point of clarification, we are a democratic republic, not a democracy. One follows the rule of law, the other the rule of the mob.
Steve: Please explain your expansive experience in economics and how union forces affect the US economy. I would love to see this great insight as it hasn't been explained. From everything I've seen so far both you and Ron are completely ignorant on the topic at hand.
The ONLY thing you got right is the comments on insurance and retirement. Free medical and retirement, nope, it ALWAYS comes out of your salary regardless of union or not. Your employer will take that cost out of what you get on your paycheck everytime.
As for your other points, both my wife and I set our own salaries as does my father and all of my close friends and coworkers. Only folks that don't are those who work for the government or are too lazy to do so.
As for unions shutting down companies-Maybe not completely blowing up the company, but certainly either forcing them into chapter 11 (airlines) or out of the country (Hershey, GM, US steel industry, Caterpillar, etc...) Those are off the top of my head. I could do some research and would probably find numerous examples of businesses being destroyed by the unions outright.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Want to see what a union does for a city...come and live where I do. The union leadership doesn't give a rat's **** about their fellow workers(there may have been a time when they did, but that has long passed and I doubt very many of them are still sucking air), only getting their own pockets lined. The corruption stinks to high heaven."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
How about in public education...
There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Those of you who put the blame all on the unions, or all on management just don't get it. Both sides have managed to screw things up equally. Nobody forced management to accept the contract negotiated with unions. At the same time, workers need to recognize that the health of the company is paramount to them having jobs.
All the outside factors (regulations, insurance, etc.) can be handled when both sides work together, instead of adversarily.Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
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bobman1235 wrote: »The electoral college, or at least electoral votes, get a bad rep. The United States is a group of states, not a group of people. That's why we have electoral votes per state, not a common vote. Each state has its own government for a reason - because states may have (are SUPPOSED to be able to have) different views on major issues, and as such its the collective opinion of the states, not the collective opinion of the entire populace, that really matters at the Federal level.
It think the concept of managing a country by shifting authority back and forth from the states to the federal government is crazy and horribly divisive. Do you think the US government cares about Alberta? No. They may have a little concern about Canada as a whole... but, almost no concern for an individual province. Another example: To think that capital punishment is administered by the state without oversight from the federal government is equally crazy. Its just finger pointing to shift responsibility and blame.
The reason that the electoral college gets a bad rep, is because it should. We aren't a nation of laws. If we were, we would end illegal immigration. The truth is that our representatives selectively enforce laws at their whim.
Perhaps the emphasis in government needs to shift away from Republic and more towards Democracy. A German one time told me that the USA is incredibly concerned about enforcing free elections everywhere in the world except the USA (citing the Florida election). -
It think the concept of managing a country by shifting authority back and forth from the states to the federal government is crazy and horribly divisive.
Luckily much smarter and more visionary people than you drew up the Constitution.
The tenth amendment to the Constitution (part of something you may have heard of, the Bill of Rights) specifically deals with the rights of States - anything that is not covered by the Federal government is up to the LOCAL government to decide. It all stemmed from taxation without representation and all that stuff you learn as a kid - the founding fathers were smart enough to know that the federal government cannot possibly create blanket rules that will apply to all corners of a vast and DIVERSE nation, and thus left most of the decision making up to the regions that understood their local politics.
For example, maybe it makes sense to have more strict gun laws in New York City, but that makes no sense in rural Montana.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
First of all Socialism and Communism are two separate things. Socialism is a collective comprised soley of the people & Communism is the government controlling everything for the good of the people. The uniting of workers and/or labor is the basis for most every socialist ideal worldwide. Inculding the US. The oldest socialist organization in the US - The Socialist Labor Party started in 1876 as the Workingmen's Party of America. Anyone that thinks that unionism and socialism aren't related has their head in the sand.
Direct from the Socialist Party of the USA...
^^ Exactly. Its been a few years since I studied socialism/communism so my info may be off a little bit but the simple fact is that no government has made it to the socialism stage. Theres like 6 steps for a government to to make to be considered socialism and so far, they have not made it to the 6th step and they have all lead to communism. The 6th step was the step that the government relinquishes the control to the people...Testing
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Break a union... not going to happen to the big ones... ever. That would be like saying that if Russia launched all of its nukes at us that we wouldnt send ours right back at them leading in total earth destruction
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bobman1235 wrote: »Luckily much smarter and more visionary people than you drew up the Constitution.
The tenth amendment to the Constitution (part of something you may have heard of, the Bill of Rights) specifically deals with the rights of States - anything that is not covered by the Federal government is up to the LOCAL government to decide. It all stemmed from taxation without representation and all that stuff you learn as a kid - the founding fathers were smart enough to know that the federal government cannot possibly create blanket rules that will apply to all corners of a vast and DIVERSE nation, and thus left most of the decision making up to the regions that understood their local politics.
For example, maybe it makes sense to have more strict gun laws in New York City, but that makes no sense in rural Montana.
^^ Smart man, good post.Testing
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A German one time told me that the USA is incredibly concerned about enforcing free elections everywhere in the world except the USA (citing the Florida election).
And what was your response? Did you agree with him? Did you defend your country or roll over like every other Hollywood puke. Some people just cannot and will never let this go... -
And what was your response? Did you agree with him? Did you defend your country or roll over like every other Hollywood puke. Some people just cannot and will never let this go...
Well now... I guess you made yourself clear on your position on that cluster F that was that election. I sure as hell would say something to the effect of "Yup you are absolutely true but we live in a civil society and Al Gore could have continued to fight the results and probably won however he did what was right for the country and stepped down before we fired up another civil war over it. It was a hard time for our country, its true that the man who won the popular vote did not win the election and there was all kinds of crazy stuff going on down there in Florida with W'yas brother and all but you know what, that’s politics and it was so damn close any ways that Gore took a hit for this country and backed down his sure win".
That’s what makes America right, we have successfully switched leadership every 4 years without a drop of blood shed (well, except maybe that Civil War thing).Testing
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This has been a fascinating discussion!
Ron, time & time again, some states have proven that they weren't willing to do the right thing. Or maybe I should say whomever was in charge wouldn't do the right thing & the Federal govmt had to step in.
Case in point. the desegregation of schools, specifically Little Rock AR in 1957.
The Governor decide to use the Natl. Guard to keep 9 black kids out of HS. It took President Eisenhower to nationalize them & send in the 101st Airborne Division to get the job done!
If the federal government hadn't stepped in they would still be segregated.
So just like everything else, there is the good with the bad. If things are left up to just people who are just looking out for their own interests we would be a lot more screwed then we are.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
It was a hard time for our country, its true that the man who won the popular vote did not win the election and there was all kinds of crazy stuff going on down there in Florida with W'yas brother and all but you know what, that’s politics and it was so damn close any ways that Gore took a hit for this country and backed down his sure win.
Gore did not "take a hit" for his country. He lost. I can't believe people still claim otherwise.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE.html?ex=1195275600&en=966a2b18fa017493&ei=5070 -
Damn. This thread still going on?
No unions here. My company isn't union. Outsourcing still going on.
Gee, must be the lower labor costs. Of course, the Indian guys screw everything up,
and it has to be redone. The real question is, is it really saving money?
I believe many management guys do it because it's the "in" thing to do.
Try it and see. The place is full of MBA's that don't bother to understand the
business. Go two levels up, and they are completely disconnected.
I spend too much of my life in meetings explaining basics of our business
to guys in terms that my kids would understand. Yet it shoots over their heads.
Is it time to retire yet?"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
And what was your response? Did you agree with him? Did you defend your country or roll over like every other Hollywood puke. Some people just cannot and will never let this go...
This German guy was a real smart cookie. He agreed that Sadaam needed to go... but, completely disagreed with the lies that Bush (and team) fabricated to go to war against Iraq. Then, the conversation moved to the above quote. Finally, the German stated in disgust that he was embarrassed that the European Community still (to this day) mandates that their children are not permitted to say "the pledge of allegiance" in German grade schools (due to WWII). When asked about WWII, this German guy responded... "THANK GOD THAT WE LOST".
Anyway, there was absolutely no reason to try to defend Bush. This guy was way more educated than myself on USA issues and had already formed an educated opinion. -
Break a union... not going to happen to the big ones... ever. That would be like saying that if Russia launched all of its nukes at us that we wouldnt send ours right back at them leading in total earth destruction
All it takes is a majority vote of the members of the union. Seeing that it costs them 1.5% of their pay to maintain membership in the union, and all they get from union membership is Job Insecurity (as so many people have pointed out)... you would think it would be an easy thing to accomplish.
Of course, for the vote to count, there can't be any open "unfair labor practice" charges against the company. And, there-in lies the problem with decertification. Before the NLRB will report the results of a de-certification election, the company must first abide Federal labor law. That simply won't happen.
Incidentally, to get the NLRB to schedule a de-certification election, all you need are signed "decertification pledge cards" from 30% of the union membership. And, passing the decertification vote is just a majority.
If unions weren't appreciated by their membership, democracy dictates that decertification would take place. -
Ron: You are forgetting that, typically, a union is formed of relatively uneducated and lazy folks that have no desire to compete and are indoctrinated from day 1 of coming through the door that the employee works for the union and only through the unions benificence would they have a job. Plus, let us not forget all the nice peer pressure and fear tactics used by the union in their voting. Added together, this makes a union virtually impossible to blow up.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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Please tell me the pug wasn't involved....There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
