Hershey Highway (NAFTA)

mrbigbluelight

Okay, I've waved my magic wand, and all the hidden socialists (aka "unionists") have been banished from the planet.

Whew ! Thanks goodness.

My question now is: what comfort level do you have with the class of management that now exists in this country ?

steveinaz

You people scare me.

Hell, lets just out-source everything--despite ourselves. Let's see how that works out for us. We'll teach ourselves a lesson! And then, once all the foreign countries are RUNNING our business, they can do what they want to us---you know, all in the name of success right?

I weep, again, for the future.

PEOPLE
YOU CAN RUN A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS, STILL OWN YOUR 4 HOUSES AND 2 VACATION CONDOS, DRIVE YOUR BMW, AND STILL PAY WORKING AMERICANS A GOOD WAGE, you know, so they can pay their utilities this month. Where the problem lies, is corporate America wants 16 houses, 4 vacation condos, a yacht, and a different colored Hummer for each day of the week--while their employees struggle with affording decent health care--talk to me some more about fairness. Sheesh, get a clue.

Where's the loyalty to the American worker (read that: OURSELVES)?? What, are you all independantly wealthy or something? Millionares? World citizens? Lottery winners?

Big fish, small fish, eating...that sorta thing.

So now, in this crazy world, if I'm loyal to America, I'm a communist. So ironic, it's funny. Must be that "new math" stuff.

PhantomOG

maybe its because American culture is "disgusting" :rolleyes:

jwhitakr

I think this issue has been beaten to death, trampled on, run over with a truck and then beaten a few more times. Everyone has their own opinions and experiences and is absolutely sure they are right about their viewpoint.

All I have to say is: If you hate outsourcing and think it's the bane of all American workers, good luck to you with trying to maintain the status quo of your American company while the rest of the world gets faster / smarter / more efficient.

TroyD

Ok, here are a few simple facts.....this great wave of unemployment that everyone has been so scared of (and the unions use as a scare tactic) due to outsourcing is/was/will be a myth. Want proof? Look at the unemployment rate. We are at/close to statistical full employment. Now, before someone goes all batshit and starts in about low paying jobs...that argument has been bandied about for at LEAST 20 years (probably longer) and it holds no more water now than it did then. Probably less.

Ok, lets take unions. On the surface, sure, they appear to be a good thing....and a century ago, the were. Back then the US government was more of a strict constitutional government and did little to regulate commerce. Now, so much of what the unions stood for is federally mandated that the are practically obsolete. No ****. Look it up.

You want a look at what unions do now? Look at the US steel industry and the US auto industry. You want to know what is torpedoing the US auto industry? Labor costs. In another thread I broke down what the labor costs per unit were between Japanese and American cars were and the difference is STAGGERING. If you want to know why the US auto industry is going the way of the dodo bird...you don't need to look any further. I mean, JHC, a basic car is now 30K? Why? So some a$$hole sitting on an ergonomically designed chair (that his contract stipulates he has to have) because his 300lb **** can't stand for 8 hours has to make 40 bucks an hour for pushing a button 8 hours a day (less once you deduct his breaks). Horseshit.

For you union guys, go right ahead and see how hard you can squeeze the companies balls.....and one of two things is bound to happen sure as Christ made little green apples. Those jobs are going to go overseas OR the company folds. Why? Because companies exist to make money for the stockholders. If there is no profit, than people will NOT invest. People will find another venture that will bring them a return on thier investment (in many cases, this is done by proxy ie a fund manager, see below). So, the thinking that the purpose of business is, first and foremost an avenue to employ people is 180 degrees from the principles of a free market society. THEN what is your union going to do for you. Ask the folks that used to be steel workers. NOTHING. So, rather than see how much you can squeeze, a better question would be...what can we do to make the company more competitive/profitable because then, EVERYONE wins.

Lastly, this schtick about corporate greed. Any of you geniuses want to hazard a guess who those beneficiares of corporate profits are? Well, if you have any sort of 401k, mutual funds, pension fund, trading account etc etc....yeah, that would be YOU, a$$hole. Lest you forget, we are talking about publicly held/traded companies...so, we all are the 'owners' in some shape or fashion. Jeeze, some of you guys REALLY make me wonder what you were doing in economics class.

Another point, while having companies and, on a larger scale, society, exist for the sake of the collective good. Well, dust of the Communist Manifesto because there you go. Communism/Socialism has been tried and it has failed, miserably, every time. Why? Because it removes motivation. Without any sort of motivation....you lose innovation etc etc. Honestly, you show me a successful socialist state and I'll eat my hat. They don't exist and if you want to use, say, China as an example....I'll tell you (and the evidence is irrefutable) that any gains seen there are because of the introduction of capitalism.

Oh, and as a last thought, don't even bother bringing up CEO/executive salaries. It's a bunch of crap. Yes, they make a lot of money but in the grand scheme of things, the salaries are a virtual DROP IN THE BUCKET. That's a fact.

End of the economic lesson for today. Class dismissed.

BDT

jdhdiggs

Steve: What do you call it when someone is forced to give up something that they earned and give it to someone that hasn't? That is the essence of what you are advocating. Some call it theft, others socialism, regardless, that's what unions are doing.

You're Scrooge McDuck view of business ownership is extraordinarily outdated. Anyone investing outside of a government pension are the "owners".

Edit: Troy- Damn nice post sir!

Systems

I said it in the other thread.

I still think its better for America and our economy to have said the Hershey corporate headquarters in the USA with 1000 guys making $100K a year on average and have ten thousand factory workers in China making $1000. Their stock still being sold and owned by mostly Americans. A company with a factory in America with people doing extremely simple tasks expecting a living wage of $35000 (non-union, probably $50000 union) is not going to make that company be able to compete in the global world market. As long as the "buck" stops here, I’m happy.

Its no different then the lumber industry in Oregon. in the 80's it got shut down and tens of thousands of people actually refocused and got educated and it was replaced with what... INTEL... billion dollar fab plants.

I would rather have Intel in my city then 10000 lumber workers.



But the simple fact is its kind of funny how people over the past 20 years have been attacking these kinds of things… but look at our economy… its still doing excellent, still having its proper ups and downs… so what’s the problem???

Each one of them Hershey workers will refocus. 50% might go to a new factory (not very focused people) but you know what 15% might go back, get an education and come back making $100000 as a Hershey accountant. The ones that utterly fial.. well... thats why we pay taxes for all kinds of gov backed social help to keep these people off the streets and fed while they try to refocus. Most studies prove that this is exactly waht these kind of social programs help with and have an very high percentage of success with.

The only people worried about this are the uneducated low level blue color guys who don’t want to live the American dream and refocus… go for an education and get themselves that high paying job. Isn’t that what capitalism is about? Free market man, at some point someone in a job like that needs to realize that there’s someone in China that can do that job for $.50 an hour.

Note: yes I took all the lower level economics classes in college including business statistics; I also had senior level sociology classes on topics such as globalization.

Systems

TroyD wrote: »

Ok, here are a few simple facts.....this great wave of unemployment that everyone has been so scared of (and the unions use as a scare tactic) due to outsourcing is/was/will be a myth. Want proof? Look at the unemployment rate. We are at/close to statistical full employment. Now, before someone goes all batshit and starts in about low paying jobs...that argument has been bandied about for at LEAST 20 years (probably longer) and it holds no more water now than it did then. Probably less.
BDT

^^ Lol! Amazing, we pretty much posted at the same time saying the same thing.

rskarvan

Fact: Surface area of the USA = 2,263,651,000 Acres
Fact: Population of the USA = 30,139,947 People

That equates to 7.5 Acres of land per person (if everyone has an equal share).

My suburban house sits on a little more than 0.25 Acres. 70% of Americans owe a mortgage on their very tiny (far less than 7.5 acres) piece of the USA pie.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!

TroyD

Well, probably because it's common sense!

Lastly, lest anyone think I'm 'against' the American worker. I'm not. What I'm against is 'anti-competition' and unions (and I don't think this is intentional) are anti-competition. They seek long-term stability and benefits. That's a noble goal and on the surface, I don't disagree. However, the world is different than it was 50 years ago. We are in a truly fluid, global economy. We can't insulate ourselves from the market pressures beyond our shores, it just won't work.

It's all well and fine to say that, well, just tariff the **** out of foreign goods so we can artificially make our products competitive. However, it won't work. We need foreign markets a hell of a lot worse than they need ours and that is only going to become more and more true as time goes on. If we stick our heads in the sand and pretend we don't have to compete on a global scale, we are doomed.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out, folks.

BDT

Systems

rskarvan wrote: »

Fact: Surface area of the USA = 2,263,651,000 Acres
Fact: Population of the USA = 30,139,947 People

That equates to 7.5 Acres of land per person (if everyone has an equal share).

My suburban house sits on a little more than 0.25 Acres. 70% of Americans owe a mortgage on their very tiny (far less than 7.5 acres) piece of the USA pie.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!

^^ hahahah

You know, I know some smart business guys (MBA Types)who will be the first to tell you that America isnt as free as people think. Americans are slaves to their debt now and if you stop paying that mortgage for a month you find out how free you really are

TroyD

rskarvan wrote: »

Fact: Surface area of the USA = 2,263,651,000 Acres
Fact: Population of the USA = 30,139,947 People

That equates to 7.5 Acres of land per person (if everyone has an equal share).

My suburban house sits on a little more than 0.25 Acres. 70% of Americans owe a mortgage on their very tiny (far less than 7.5 acres) piece of the USA pie.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!

So, ah, Ron....I'm not following you here.

What's your point? Should we just divy up the land and hope to hell that everyone can provide everything they need to live on thier 7.5 acres?

Yeah, that'll work.

BDT

TroyD

Silverti wrote: »

^^ hahahah

You know, I know some smart business guys (MBA Types)who will be the first to tell you that America isnt as free as people think. Americans are slaves to their debt now and if you stop paying that mortgage for a month you find out how free you really are

See, this brings up a good point, the US market is approaching saturation. The room for growth is not what it was 50 years ago. Hell, even 20 years ago. Now, because wealth can actually be created ( our economy is not a zero sum enterprise ie if I make a dollar someone by default loses one)....the US market will always grow but the growth of the domestic markets isn't the growth opportunity that it once was ( a fact the unions haven't grasped).....Foreign markets is where the growth opportunities are.

BDT

jdhdiggs

I think I know have a headache from banging my head against my desk. The makers of Advil would like to thank you for your support.

bobman1235

rskarvan wrote:

Fact: Surface area of the USA = 2,263,651,000 Acres
Fact: Population of the USA = 30,139,947 People

That equates to 7.5 Acres of land per person (if everyone has an equal share).

My suburban house sits on a little more than 0.25 Acres. 70% of Americans owe a mortgage on their very tiny (far less than 7.5 acres) piece of the USA pie.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!

There is no way to have a reasonable conversation with someone like you. What a load of nonsense.

I wonder where roads, parks, pubic land, businesses, airports, waterways, and non-livable terrain fall into your idyllic plan of equal parcels of America for everyone.

jwhitakr

rskarvan wrote: »

Fact: Surface area of the USA = 2,263,651,000 Acres
Fact: Population of the USA = 30,139,947 People

That equates to 7.5 Acres of land per person (if everyone has an equal share).

My suburban house sits on a little more than 0.25 Acres. 70% of Americans owe a mortgage on their very tiny (far less than 7.5 acres) piece of the USA pie.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!

Wow. Was that a serious post? Is there some humorous point hidden in there that I missed?

If not, then you are subscribing to some pretty seriously bass-ackward logic.

jwhitakr

Silverti wrote: »

^^ hahahah

You know, I know some smart business guys (MBA Types)who will be the first to tell you that America isnt as free as people think. Americans are slaves to their debt now and if you stop paying that mortgage for a month you find out how free you really are

Yeah, you'd be so free that you could sleep anywhere you wanted! Like in a gutter, on a park bench, or maybe even in your car! :rolleyes:

Systems

TroyD wrote: »

See, this brings up a good point, the US market is approaching saturation. The room for growth is not what it was 50 years ago. Hell, even 20 years ago. Now, because wealth can actually be created ( our economy is not a zero sum enterprise ie if I make a dollar someone by default loses one)....the US market will always grow but the growth of the domestic markets isn't the growth opportunity that it once was ( a fact the unions haven't grasped).....Foreign markets is where the growth opportunities are.

BDT

ya that’s absolutely true and anyone with a 401K who didn’t drop a good % of their funds in the "foreign markets" section lost out on a lot of HUGE gains.

Put it this way

UPS pretty much loses money in the USA market in all of their operations.

They make HUGE profits in their international shipping and gains in China in particular.

The 200000 UPS employees in the USA can sure as hell thank their maker that UPS moved into China.

Systems

jwhitakr wrote: »

Yeah, you'd be so free that you could sleep anywhere you wanted! Like in a gutter, on a park bench, or maybe even in your car! :rolleyes:

Yup, and more so, when you are living pay check to paycheck with 2 kids, it’s pretty hard to take a day off and go to the local courthouse and protest an administration or policy that you disagree with

Ricardo

rskarvan wrote: »

Fact: Surface area of the USA = 2,263,651,000 Acres
Fact: Population of the USA = 30,139,947 People

That equates to 7.5 Acres of land per person (if everyone has an equal share).

My suburban house sits on a little more than 0.25 Acres. 70% of Americans owe a mortgage on their very tiny (far less than 7.5 acres) piece of the USA pie.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!

Wow; this is scary. Spread this thinking and a few years down the road we'll have something like this:



Edit: Jut for the records...in this very rich country everything started when some people thought that they did not need to work for a living, and the government and oil proceeds should maintain them. The equality word started to get spread by a bunch of "politics" that today are millionaires. And guess what; poor people are still poor people.
In that same country I lived through shutting down a plant because the union wanted more (some workers drove better cars than I did). I was lucky enough to keep my job and was transferred to the G.O's. Years later, some workers still called me crying for a job. They had everything...but wanted more.

PhantomOG

rskarvan wrote: »

Fact: Surface area of the USA = 2,263,651,000 Acres
Fact: Population of the USA = 30,139,947 People

That equates to 7.5 Acres of land per person (if everyone has an equal share).

My suburban house sits on a little more than 0.25 Acres. 70% of Americans owe a mortgage on their very tiny (far less than 7.5 acres) piece of the USA pie.

WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!

If this type of thinking doesn't just *scream* an entitlement frame of mind, I don't know what does. The only reason jobs are going overseas is because of this kind of thinking.

It's hilariously ironic that the people who are running around like Chicken Little thinking outsourcing signals the end of the world, are the EXACT reason why outsourcing happens. Too funny! Please, continue to **** and moan about outsourcing. The rest of us will continue to enjoy our high-paying *skill* required jobs and pay lower prices for cheap goods and material from overseas. Don't worry, there will always be McDonald's and welfare for the rest.

rskarvan

PhantomOG wrote: »

The rest of us will continue to enjoy our high-paying *skill* required jobs and pay lower prices for cheap goods and material from overseas.

And, I will continue to enjoy listening to my Kentucky made Thiel speakers powered by my Connecticut made Krell Amp and Pre-Amp supplied by a New Jersey produced Adcom DAC that gets its digital signal from a California fabricated Monarchy. All paid for by USA produced Cars and Trucks built by General Motors and Ford Motor Company while working a highly skilled degreed engineering job.

rskarvan

Ricardo wrote: »

Wow; this is scary. Spread this thinking and a few years down the road we'll have something like this:

The rise of Venezuela's left-wing President, Hugo Chavez, is a lesson in what can happen when the U.S. disses an entire continent. After 9/11, when most Latin American nations refused to endorse the U.S. invasion of Iraq, President Bush testily turned his back on the region—but not before he was widely accused of backing a failed 2002 coup against Chavez, Bush's loudest critic south of the border. Washington denies the charge, but the perception of U.S. bullying won Chavez international sympathy. His anti-U.S. Bolivarian Revolution has been roaring ever since. At the same time, U.S. influence in Latin America is perhaps at its lowest ebb. As the Bush Administration cuts development aid to the region, Chavez, who controls the hemisphere's largest oil reserves, is giving cash-strapped neighbors discounts and favorable financing on Venezuelan oil and billions of dollars in loans. That largesse, coupled with Latin America's sharp antiglobalization mood, is helping a stunning number of leftists win or lead in Latin presidential elections today.

Chavez's growing ties to Iran have prompted U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to brand him a threat to hemispheric stability. "I sting those who rattle me," Chavez said recently in his weekly TV address, "so don't mess with me, Condoleezza!" But goading America into messing with him has so far proved to be a formula for success for Chavez, 51, who is widely expected to win re-election in December.

PhantomOG

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1187165,00.html

Nice cut and paste job. Do you actually have a relevant thought yourself, or do you just rely on the media to form your opinions for you?

rskarvan

PhantomOG wrote: »

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1187165,00.html

Nice cut and paste job. Do you actually have a relevant thought yourself, or do you just rely on the media to form your opinions for you?

Woops... forgot to include the foot-note. My bad.

markmarc

The adversarial relationship between management and business is an ongoing recipe for disaster. Unions and management need to take a step back and ask one simple question, "how can we succeed with our current labor/management design."

I would tell all union members and their leaders that the first step must be to offer a straight-forward quick plan to rid themselves of incompetent workers to management. afterall, it makes them all look bad.
Secondly, recognize that current salary structure just doesn't work, period. keeping jobs means wage concessions, the airline workers survived. It's not fun cutting back, but working and keeping a community economically healthy is good for all.

Management, in return for these two concessions, would follow the lead of Anderson Windows. every worker gets a fair wage, but the kicker comes in the form of the company profitability bonus. Many workers double their salary because everybody pushes for quality knowing that their wallet benefits. It's an amazing story that can work for every company.

just my two cents....

steveinaz

Like I said stated earlier, I am a conservative, but I believe that companies should do right by their employees--most don't--so therefore we have unions. We shouldn't have to have unions, but since some people are void of any sense of fairness--the employees have united. Hmmm...sounds like free-market to me. Or is it only "free market" when it benefits the corporation? Seems to me, if companies had done the right thing from the start, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.

Greed rules the day, and just like the free-market, employess will do some adjusting of their own in an attempt to find an equitable relationship.

It's funny, many are all for the companies doing what they want, but let the employee negotiate a bit and everyone calls "foul" ....bit of a "plantation mentality" isn't it?

Ricardo

rskarvan wrote: »

The rise of Venezuela's left-wing President, Hugo Chavez, is a lesson in what can happen when the U.S. disses an entire continent. After 9/11, when most Latin American nations refused to endorse the U.S. invasion of Iraq, President Bush testily turned his back on the region—but not before he was widely accused of backing a failed 2002 coup against Chavez, Bush's loudest critic south of the border. Washington denies the charge, but the perception of U.S. bullying won Chavez international sympathy. His anti-U.S. Bolivarian Revolution has been roaring ever since. At the same time, U.S. influence in Latin America is perhaps at its lowest ebb. As the Bush Administration cuts development aid to the region, Chavez, who controls the hemisphere's largest oil reserves, is giving cash-strapped neighbors discounts and favorable financing on Venezuelan oil and billions of dollars in loans. That largesse, coupled with Latin America's sharp antiglobalization mood, is helping a stunning number of leftists win or lead in Latin presidential elections today.

Chavez's growing ties to Iran have prompted U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to brand him a threat to hemispheric stability. "I sting those who rattle me," Chavez said recently in his weekly TV address, "so don't mess with me, Condoleezza!" But goading America into messing with him has so far proved to be a formula for success for Chavez, 51, who is widely expected to win re-election in December.

Ron, you are moving off subject here.

What I was trying to highlight is how dangerous it is to see educated people say things such as "WAKE UP PEOPLE -- WE ARE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, VERY OPPRESSED!!!".
You don't know it and will deny it, but if your "dream" came true tomorrow and every person owned 7.5 acres, most would starve to death, because they would be too lazy to do something with that land.

shack

steveinaz wrote:

Like I said stated earlier, I am a conservative, but I believe that companies should do right by their employees--most don't--so therefore we have unions. We shouldn't have to have unions, but since some people are void of any sense of fairness--the employees have united. Hmmm...sounds like free-market to me. Or is it only "free market" when it benefits the corporation? Seems to me, if companies had done the right thing from the start, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.

Greed rules the day, and just like free-market, employess will do some adjusting of their own in an attempt to find an equitable relationship.

It's funny, many are all for the companies doing what they want, but let the employee negotiate a bit and everyone calls "foul" ....bit of a "plantation mentality" isn't it?

Sorry Steve...IMO that is total BS. I belive exactly the opposite. Companies generally "do right" by their employees. The cost of benefits that most companies "offer" over and above salary is skyrocketing yet most compnies do everything they can to insulate the worker from those cost increases. Also, companies must take care of the "skilled" employees or lose them to another co. THAT is free market economics. Unskilled labor is another story...but then again who's fault is it that they are unskilled? Union membership has been steadily declining for many decades. This started long before the so-called outsourcing. Unions are the first to call foul when an election goes against them even when it is obvious that the employees don't want them. (I can hear the scare tactic conspiracy theorist yelling now:rolleyes:). I am not anti worker. They should be paid a fair wage for what they do and the value they ad to whatever they do. That value should be determined by productivity and law of supply and demand....concepts unions don't like.

I guess we will always disagree on this subject. Several see gloom and doom without unions....I see a bright future...for all. Capitalism and free markets rule (they are only the foundations of the greatest economic power the world has ever seen....and STILL is!)

jdhdiggs

steveinaz wrote: »

It's funny, many are all for the companies doing what they want, but let the employee negotiate a bit and everyone calls "foul" ....bit of a "plantation mentality" isn't it?

No one has an issue of an individual employee negotiate for their wages. Hell, that's why I'm making 6 figures at 30yo-I negotiated my job positions and wages. It works great, especially for those who want to acheive. It's when the employees organize and decide to hold the company hostage that it becomes an issue. More pay for less work isn't exactly the American dream. Let's reverse it: why is it legal for the employee's to organize and not the companies?