The future of upconverting stand-alone DVD players

BaggedLancer

Just trying to start a friendly discussion here...


With the recent incredible price drops on the Toshiba HD DVD players(which upconvert remarkably as well based on reviews) what do you guys think the future of stand alone non HD upconverting players are? I browse the weekly ads for best buy and circuit city and some of the upconverting players still fetch a good penny.

Now that the HD-A2 is down to $100-$130 depend on sale/location do you guys think companies like Oppo and some of the other nice upconverting players will still have a market to play in? It just seems silly to buy a non HD player, even if you don't plan on buying HD DVD's you still have the technology if you rent/borrow one.....

Ricardo

I don't know; you're probably right, but if people know about the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong loading time, they will probably stay with the STD upconverting until they are ready to move all the way to HD.

BaggedLancer

Ricardo wrote: »

I don't know; you're probably right, but if people know about the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong loading time, they will probably stay with the STD upconverting until they are ready to move all the way to HD.

The loading time is definately an issue that needs to be addressed. But remember upconverting technology comes latest generation gaming consoles as well..... I just see this market being eliminated or close to, possibly soon as the holidays this year.

bobman1235

The loading time isn't so bad, it's really the boot time that's a problem. Load time seems almost the same as a standard DVD player, once the thing finishes its 60-second power-on sequence.

Willow

There still is the issue of HD being able to play Divx and ISO/image files.

jabrax

Essentially, the hd-dvd players are cpu's....they boot up with memory just like computers

dkg999

With the price drop on the BR players, is someone declaring that format as the winner? That's what I am waiting for. Then I want an upconverting HD player that decodes the HD audio and sends it to the 7.1 inputs on my AVR. Std def audio can still go via coax or optical to the decoder in my AVR.

That's all I want. Just an itty bitty non-important consumer not wanting to have to throw my betamax deck in the trash again

Willow

I think I'll buy one when it plays everything including Divx and ISO/Image files. I don't think they have the tech in place yet to upconvert to 1080i/p those formats.

BaggedLancer

dkg999 wrote: »

With the price drop on the BR players, is someone declaring that format as the winner? That's what I am waiting for. Then I want an upconverting HD player that decodes the HD audio and sends it to the 7.1 inputs on my AVR. Std def audio can still go via coax or optical to the decoder in my AVR.

That's all I want. Just an itty bitty non-important consumer not wanting to have to throw my betamax deck in the trash again

This thread isn't about format wars. This thread is about stand alone strictly upconverting players that are stand alones versus HD players in the same $100-$130 price range. The only HD players in that range are HD DVD.....when BR players hit $100 we can throw them in the mix as well since then it will really accelerate the decling future of stand alone upconverters.

dkg999

I see all these issues as very closely tied together, from a marketing and product lifecycle perspective. But carry on and I apologize for the diversion.

BaggedLancer

dkg999 wrote: »

I see all these issues as very closely tied together, from a marketing and product lifecycle perspective. But carry on and I apologize for the diversion.

Of course the price drop from Microsoft/Toshiba is directly tied to trying to beat Blu-Ray in the format war, but I was looking at it from the other angle....look what it is doing to the other manufacturers of upconverting players that have nothing to do with the high-def market. Oppo, Phillips, and any of the others that exist. Oppo prides itself on an outstanding upconverting player in the more expensive range of $200-$240...they are indrectly being ruined by the format war.

dkg999

Agree with your comments.

Willow

I think they are around to stay a bit longer. Until the price of other formats come down and are affordable for everyone. Plus the marketing of upconverting may lead people to think they are getting HD.

engtaz

With the price of HD DVD players being low, I think upconverting players with have a harder time selling. JMO

engtaz

Early B.

WTF is an upconverting player anyway?

That's the question 98% of consumers are probably asking themselves. In fact, I don't think HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will really take off until the discs decrease a bit more in price. I'm guessing that most consumers may appreciate the lower prices HD players, but may be reluctant to pay $25 a pop to re-purchase their favorite movies.

I don't think folks like Oppo have to worry about anything. They'll probably have an HD player out on the market soon anyway for $149 that will be the best in class, if history serves them well.

rskarvan

These el-cheapo HD players don't do 1080p. So, they are not truly "HIGH DEFINITION"... but, only "Medium High Definition".

There is just as dramatic of change from 720p/1080i to 1080p as there was going from normal TV to 720p.

What we really want is a dual format HD/BR 1080P upconverting player with 7.1 outputs for $100 to $200 and equip it with 10 free movies (5 BR and 5HD). That will solve the betamax problem.

bobman1235

rskarvan wrote: »

These el-cheapo HD players don't do 1080p. So, they are not truly "HIGH DEFINITION"... but, only "Medium High Definition".

Anything 720p and up is considered high definition by pretty much everyone. High def means higher than standard def (480i/p). Not "highEST" definition, but... high definition.

There is just as dramatic of change from 720p/1080i to 1080p as there was going from normal TV to 720p.

Not even close. There's a difference, and it's nice, but to compare it to standard def-> HD is a huge stretch. That's like saying standard DVd-> progressive scan (480i -> 480p) is the same as standard def to high def. They're two different ballparks.

Sami

rskarvan wrote: »

These el-cheapo HD players don't do 1080p. So, they are not truly "HIGH DEFINITION"... but, only "Medium High Definition".

There is just as dramatic of change from 720p/1080i to 1080p as there was going from normal TV to 720p.

I think you have misunderstood the whole concept of interlaced and progressive. 1080i60 source to 1080p display is as much 1080p as 1080p source since the original material is 1080p24. Look up 3:2 pulldown for more info.

rskarvan

When I watch 1080i it looks like crap. 720p looks better.
When I watch 1080p... it looks much better than either 720p or 1080i.

Sami

rskarvan wrote: »

When I watch 1080i it looks like crap. 720p looks better.
When I watch 1080p... it looks much better than either 720p or 1080i.

Wait a second...you are watching 1080i, meaning you are watching 1080i TV display. Totally different thing than 1080i source.

rskarvan

Sami wrote: »

Wait a second...you are watching 1080i, meaning you are watching 1080i TV display. Totally different thing than 1080i source.

Perhaps you are right. The 1080i I was watching was from my DirecTV box. It looked like crap.

Sami

rskarvan wrote: »

Perhaps you are right. The 1080i I was watching was from my DirecTV box. It looked like crap.

That's compressed signal, again apples to oranges.

Do you have 1080p or 720p TV?

disneyjoe7

rskarvan wrote: »

Perhaps you are right. The 1080i I was watching was from my DirecTV box. It looked like crap.

Are you comparing 1080i up-convert from normal 480i DirecTV over a 1080i signal from OTA HD? If so those two are not even in the same ballpark.

Early B.

OK, I'm confused. Is there a dramatic difference between 1080i and 1080p? Or is this issue like the cable debate in audio -- some see it, some don't.

Sami

Even with a faulty pulldown 1080i and 1080p sources to 1080p display are almost identical. With correct pulldown they are identical.

1080i and 1080p displays of course are different but that's not the issue here.

Roy Munson

I don't think you will see the masses buying Hd DVD or BluRay until the movies come down in price! At $24.95 to $29.95 per single movie I doubt that many are going to be replacing their movie libraries at that cost. [I know I'm not] Also just think what some boxed sets are going to be going for when they come out. Is anyone prepared to pay $200.00 or $300.00 for a boxed set of say, Band Of Brothers that is available for $49.95 in the SD form? I think I'll pass for a while!

rskarvan

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Are you comparing 1080i up-convert from normal 480i DirecTV over a 1080i signal from OTA HD? If so those two are not even in the same ballpark.

I have HD on Directv. The 1080i was on an HD channel. I preferred the 720p version of the HD channel.
I don't have an Antenna hooked up... So, I am relying on Directv for my HD signal.

My Sony Blu Ray at 1080p blows away any other format - by a mile.

And, yes, I have a Samsung 1080p Plasma.

rskarvan

Early B. wrote: »

OK, I'm confused. Is there a dramatic difference between 1080i and 1080p? Or is this issue like the cable debate in audio -- some see it, some don't.

I think the difference is significant when watching Directv in HD mode. I prefer 720p over 1080i.

Sami

rskarvan wrote: »

I think the difference is significant when watching Directv in HD mode. I prefer 720p over 1080i.

Either there is difference in the broadcast or your TV does horrible job doing 3:2 pulldown.

Here's a primer for more knowledge about the subject. Note that most of the article talks about 30fps while 1080i and 1080p are 60fps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

For a quick view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#3:2_pulldown

In short, both 1080i and 1080p contain the same information, film converted into 1920x1080. Since film is 24fps its 1080p24. 24 frames are converted into 60 frames. 3:2 means 5 frames for every 2 frames, 5/2 = 2.5 and 60/24 = 2.5.

Monster Jam

Early B. wrote: »

WTF is an upconverting player anyway?

That's the question 98% of consumers are probably asking themselves. In fact, I don't think HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will really take off until the discs decrease a bit more in price. I'm guessing that most consumers may appreciate the lower prices HD players, but may be reluctant to pay $25 a pop to re-purchase their favorite movies.

I don't think folks like Oppo have to worry about anything. They'll probably have an HD player out on the market soon anyway for $149 that will be the best in class, if history serves them well.

Thats precisely what my Las Vegas Best Buy is trying to pimp.

MGPK

Sami wrote: »

Either there is difference in the broadcast or your TV does horrible job doing 3:2 pulldown.

Here's a primer for more knowledge about the subject. Note that most of the article talks about 30fps while 1080i and 1080p are 60fps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

For a quick view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#3:2_pulldown

In short, both 1080i and 1080p contain the same information, film converted into 1920x1080. Since film is 24fps its 1080p24. 24 frames are converted into 60 frames. 3:2 means 5 frames for every 2 frames, 5/2 = 2.5 and 60/24 = 2.5.

1080i is not the same as 1080p. The 3:2 pull down is a mathematical conversion to create a smoother image on video when it is transferred from film.

1080i has half the information as 1080p due to the televisions/source components scan rate. Blu-ray and HDDVD have the 24 fps feature so their is no conversion from film to video, hence making the 3:2 pulldown feature redundant.