Sound Of Different Capacitors

ka7niq

I was on a different forum last week when an old audio buddy sent me an instant message.
He had been raving about an expensive brand of capacitor he had installed into several speakers he owns.
These capacitors "smoothed out" the sound of his Horn Speakers he said.
He paid BIG Bucks for these.
Well, he "got suspicious" and actually measured these caps.
Sure enough, they had LESS Capacitance then advertised.
One cap was supposed to be a 2.2 mfd, but was actually only 1.9 measured.
The cap it replaced was measured at 2.5 mfd.
Of course, in a tweeter circuit, the lower value of capacitance will shift the tweeter crossover UP in frequency, creating a mellower sound !
He was NOT saying there isn't a difference in the sound of different capacitor materials.
But there certainly is a difference in the sound of different cap values in a given circuit.

I think it would be a good idea to actually measure any replacement cap before installation to make sure you are getting what you THINK you are ?

I know I sure will from now on

jakelm

How do you measure a capacitor? Its not like a resistor. Can it be measured with a Rat shack multimeter?

ka7niq

Many DVM's have this capability.
Mine does, I bought it at Lowes for 29.95 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance_meter

jakelm

I guess mine doesnt have it.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103174&cp=&sr=1&origkw=multimeter&kw=multimeter&parentPage=search

ka7niq

Here is a good thread on them http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=62806

Rat Shack and Lowes/Home Depot have them.
Someone said even Harbor Freight has them for cheap ?

They work by charging the cap and measuring rate of capacitance.

Easy as reading a resistor

More elaborate measurements like ESR and inductance require more sophisticated means.

jakelm

Well, I'll stuck stick with the ol' "if it sounds good it will work".

But it would be a fun project.

ka7niq

jakelm wrote: »

Well, I'll stuck stick with the ol' "if it sounds good it will work".

But it would be a fun project.

NOTHING wrong with that either.
Sometimes a slightly different value cap can actually sound a bit better due to driver/component aging, etc.

I had some older Vandersteen 2CI's once.
The tweeter was well broken in, but they were a tad dull sounding in my room.

I intentionally put a slightly different value cap on the tweeter to bring it in a little sooner.
Result ?
A slightly brighter, more detailed sound.
Worked well in my room which was a bit overdamped.

The person I sold them to had a live room, so we changed the cap back to a stock value, but used a Solen instead of the stock cap.

He loved them, but moved up the Vandersteen food chain to Vandersteen 3's.

jakelm

I upgraded my 7's with Sollens and Mills. I really cant say it improved a whole lot, but there was an improvement. Especially in the mid region.

mhardy6647

Well, he "got suspicious" and actually measured these caps.
Sure enough, they had LESS Capacitance then advertised.
One cap was supposed to be a 2.2 mfd, but was actually only 1.9 measured.
The cap it replaced was measured at 2.5 mfd.

and... what was the mfgr's specified tolerance of the new cap? of the old? If the new one was spec'd at +/- 10%, it's just about within tolerance. If the mfgr of the new, expensive boutique cap doesn't specifiy a tolerance, well, caveat emptor.

And who calibrated your capacitance meter? Is it NIST-traceable?

The folks who design the crossovers know that no two components will be the same, and allow for variation in their designs.

Of course, in a tweeter circuit, the lower value of capacitance will shift the tweeter crossover UP in frequency, creating a mellower sound !

right... right... umm-hmm... of course...

ka7niq

mhardy6647 wrote: »

and... what was the mfgr's specified tolerance of the new cap? of the old? If the new one was spec'd at +/- 10%, it's just about within tolerance. If the mfgr of the new, expensive boutique cap doesn't specifiy a tolerance, well, caveat emptor.

And who calibrated your capacitance meter? Is it NIST-traceable?

The folks who design the crossovers know that no two components will be the same, and allow for variation in their designs.


right... right... umm-hmm... of course...

Here is a link to a crossover calculator http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
You can enter a crossover point of say 2000 hz, and see the value cap reqiured.
Now, enter 3000 hz, and the value of the cap gets smaller.

jakelm

.2 uF there is only a 50hz difference. So the difference between a 1.9 and a 2.2uF, is only about 55hz. I would worry too much about that.

ka7niq

jakelm wrote: »

.2 uF there is only a 50hz difference. So the difference between a 1.9 and a 2.2uF, is only about 55hz. I would worry too much about that.

Yeah, it is not much is it ?
But when combined with different ESR in the replacement cap, it could be audible ?

I once spoke with a B&W Engineer who told me not to replace the caps in my speakers, unless using the same cap.
Told me there was more going on then met the eye.
I didn't listen

jakelm

ka7niq wrote: »

Yeah, it is not much is it ?
But when combined with different ESR in the replacement cap, it could be audible ?

I once spoke with a B&W Engineer who told me not to replace the caps in my speakers, unless using the same cap.
Told me there was more going on then met the eye.
I didn't listen

I'm not doubting your Engineer, but, in most cases the better caps and resistors are not used in the xover because of cost reaons. IMO, just because they are in there, doesnt mean they are the best for that speaker.

I know for a fact that Sollen caps and Mills reisistor are better sounding and last longer than the original caps used by Polk. But Polk wasnt about to spend that kind of money on internal parts, because then the speaker would be way out of thier price point.

ka7niq

jakelm wrote: »

I'm not doubting your Engineer, but, in most cases the better caps and resistors are not used in the x over because of cost reasons. IMO, just because they are in there, doesn't mean they are the best for that speaker.

I know for a fact that Solen caps and Mills resistor are better sounding and last longer than the original caps used by Polk. But Polk wasn't about to spend that kind of money on internal parts, because then the speaker would be way out of their price point.

You gotta watch more then just capacitance.
ESR is also important.
Metalized Poly caps usually have much lower ESR then Electrolytic.
The different ESR can change the crossover performance a bit.
THAT was the point of concern of the B&W engineer.

He TOLD me there is absolutely NO difference between the sound of caps, at audio frequencies.

He said they did use Mylar, and film caps sometimes simply because they have longer life spans.

Their market is recording studios, where a studio will buy an 801 and sometimes keep it for many years.

He told me YEARS of voicing done on the speakers they make could easily go "down the drain" by changing brands/types of caps.

He told me IF I just HAD to "play" to simply order NEW caps of the exact same kind and type.

This way I would be assured of the performance I paid for.

WHY would he tell me this ?

He knew I could afford "better caps' and had the desire to change them.

He even went so far as to tell me B&W Tries to make the best speakers they can, especially their flagship.

He said they evaluated every wonder cap known to man, in an effort to make a better speaker.

He just laughed when I suggested they wanted to cut costs.

He said" We are selling 20,000 dollar speakers to extremely critical people, IF a 150 dollar cap would make our speakers better, we would simply stick it in, and raise the price"

Early B.

As usual, that engineer is full of ****. Just because he helps design speakers doesn't make him an audio expert.

heiney9

Early B. wrote: »

As usual, that engineer is full of ****. Just because he helps design speakers doesn't make him an audio expert.

Plus, he's an engineer for the company he is talking about. Doubt very much he'd say something negative about the company or the speakers's he designs. It's a company philosophy and that sure as HELL doesn't mean it's right or wrong just their philosophy. No different than talking with Matthew Polk or Carroll Shelby, etc.

H9

jakelm

I guess there one way to find out.........Who wants to step up and buy a $20,000 pair of B&W's to test?...Come on..someone step up and spend the money for our little experement.

ka7niq

well ... I have clarity caps in my 801's tweeters .....

mhardy6647

He TOLD me there is absolutely NO difference between the sound of caps, at audio frequencies.

If you've listened to many of the B&W speakers, including most of their "statement" pieces, you'll know just how large of a grain of salt to take that with.

treitz3

mhardy6647 wrote: »

If you've listened to many of the B&W speakers, including most of their "statement" pieces, you'll know just how large of a grain of salt to take that with.

Ain't that the truth.;)

DarqueKnight

heiney9 wrote: »

Plus, he's an engineer for the company he is talking about. Doubt very much he'd say something negative about the company or the speakers's he designs. It's a company philosophy and that sure as HELL doesn't mean it's right or wrong just their philosophy. No different than talking with Matthew Polk or Carroll Shelby, etc.

I think it depends on the company. The folks at Polk and Adcom were very helpful and straightforward about where they cut corners and costs. They were very forthcoming about modifications to improve performance. PS Audio goes a step further by not only recommending certain modifications, but by also honoring the manufacturer's warrany for certain aftermarket modifications provided the modifications are done by an approved individual or firm.

Early B.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I think it depends on the company. The folks at Polk and Adcom were very helpful and straightforward about where they cut corners and costs. They were very forthcoming about modifications to improve performance. PS Audio goes a step further by not only recommending certain modifications, but by also honoring the manufacturer's warrany for certain aftermarket modifications provided the modifications are done by an approved individual or firm.

Good point.

Some manufacturers are so arrogant (or fearful) that they discourage tweaks. And for good reason. Open up a Krell amp, for example, and you'll find cheap components. They don't want you to compare the quality of the product with the price.

I try not to buy audio equiment unless I know the quality of the components beforehand. The fact that many high end audio manufacturers keep this a secret is says a lot about the company. That's why I like dealing with smaller audio companies because they are usually proud to point out the details of their high quality-to-price ratio.

Become an informed consumer.

ka7niq

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I think it depends on the company. The folks at Polk and Adcom were very helpful and straightforward about where they cut corners and costs. They were very forthcoming about modifications to improve performance. PS Audio goes a step further by not only recommending certain modifications, but by also honoring the manufacturer's warrany for certain aftermarket modifications provided the modifications are done by an approved individual or firm.

PS audio is a GREAT company!

jakelm

Early B. wrote: »

Good point.

Some manufacturers are so arrogant (or fearful) that they discourage tweaks. And for good reason. Open up a Krell amp, for example, and you'll find cheap components. They don't want you to compare the quality of the product with the price.

I try not to buy audio equiment unless I know the quality of the components beforehand. The fact that many high end audio manufacturers keep this a secret is says a lot about the company. That's why I like dealing with smaller audio companies because they are usually proud to point out the details of their high quality-to-price ratio.

Become an informed consumer.

And on the same note, you can buy very cheap equipment and upgrade internal parts for little money and end up with a great unit.

avguytx

Too much damn work for me...I don't have the time or patience to go thru taking stuff apart. Changing a crossover. Putting it back together. Listening. Taking it back apart. Changing a crossover. Putting it back together. Listening. Taking it apart again. Changing a crossover. Putting it back together. Listening. On and on. I'd rather spend all that (wasted) time listening to the music. YMMV.

dorokusai

Agreed, sometimes, you just need to buy a better loudspeaker.