Pink Noise and the RDO 194 Tweeter

ka7niq

Finally found my pink noise CD.
Hooked up an EQ, and ran the pink noise CD through the SRS 2's with fairly new RDO 194 tweeters for two hours today.

Boosted all bands from 1K up 12 db, and let it rip until the protection started activating.

Backed it down a bit from there, played it for two straight hours.

WHAT a difference

I think two hours of this break in did much more then playing them constantly for 3 days on music.

There really is not much UP beyond 2K, and it can take a tweeter a long time to break in.
http://www.dak.com/reviews/Tutorial_frequencies.cfm

Pink noise, especially eq boosted, really forces the tweeter to move.

I plan to let em burn in some more tomorrow.

The RDO 194 is a pretty smooth tweeter if you are familiar with pink noise.

It reproduces it well, actually the SRS 2 does pretty good on Pink noise, for what it is worth.

It is not a peaky speaker.

danger boy

Ooo Ahhhhh. nothing better than listening to pink noise for two hours.. where can I sign up? :rolleyes:

Joe08867

BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

What a wonderful sound.

Did you leave the house like you bug bombed it or was it ear plugs???

Joe08867

I am sure they sound alot nicer now.

Now you have to try them out on something you listen to all the time and see if they are stilll to bright or nice and relaxed now.

Good luck, I think you will be happy with the sound.

jcaut

ka7niq wrote: »

Boosted all bands from 1K up 12 db, and let it rip until the protection started activating.

Backed it down a bit from there, played it for two straight hours.


Pink noise, especially eq boosted, really forces the tweeter to move.

I plan to let em burn in some more tomorrow.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff??

Sounds like an excellent way to cook a little of that enamel off the voice coil. I understand speaker break-in, and I think it can make a little difference. But what you describe above is not tweeter break-in it's tweeter abuse. I'm really amazed you haven't fried them already. To each their own, I guess. Good luck with it, glad they sound better to you.


And this one puzzles me a bit too:

There really is not much UP beyond 2K

What kind of music do you listen to?

Jason

jakelm

jcaut wrote: »

Where do you guys come up with this stuff??

Sounds like an excellent way to cook a little of that enamel off the voice coil. I understand speaker break-in, and I think it can make a little difference. But what you describe above is not tweeter break-in it's tweeter abuse. I'm really amazed you haven't fried them already. To each their own, I guess. Good luck with it, glad they sound better to you.


And this one puzzles me a bit too:


What kind of music do you listen to?

Jason

Agreed....

Thats like running a sine wave into a speaker for hours, to break in a woofer. I cant justify doing that either..

But..if it works for you....

ka7niq

jcaut wrote: »

Where do you guys come up with this stuff??

Sounds like an excellent way to cook a little of that enamel off the voice coil. I understand speaker break-in, and I think it can make a little difference. But what you describe above is not tweeter break-in it's tweeter abuse. I'm really amazed you haven't fried them already. To each their own, I guess. Good luck with it, glad they sound better to you.


And this one puzzles me a bit too:


What kind of music do you listen to?

Jason

Look at the frequency chart Jason.
http://www.dak.com/reviews/Tutorial_frequencies.cfm
Most musical fundamentals are much lower in frequency then you might think.
I do not listen to much Flute or Piccolo, except Jethro Tull .

ka7niq

jakelm wrote: »

Agreed....

That's like running a sine wave into a speaker for hours, to break in a woofer. I cant justify doing that either..

But..if it works for you....

Worked real well, gonna "torture" the tweeters some more today!

ka7niq

Joe08867 wrote: »

I am sure they sound alot nicer now.

Now you have to try them out on something you listen to all the time and see if they are stilll to bright or nice and relaxed now.

Good luck, I think you will be happy with the sound.

Sounded pretty good right out of the box, even better now.

ka7niq

Joe08867 wrote: »

BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

What a wonderful sound.

Did you leave the house like you bug bombed it or was it ear plugs???

plugs

jakelm

ka7niq wrote: »

Look at the frequency chart Jason.
http://www.dak.com/reviews/Tutorial_frequencies.cfm
Most musical fundamentals are much lower in frequency then you might think.
I do not listen to much Flute or Piccolo, except Jethro Tull .

Good read..

ka7niq

jakelm wrote: »

Good read..

Yeah, it surprised me too!
Many were not aware, including me, that the woofer in a 3 way speaker is actually reproducing a lot of the musical fundamental.

In my B&W 801's, I always wondered why B&W went to such great lengths in the Matrix cabinet to suppress resonances and vibrations, since it only houses the woofer.

Now, I see why.

After viewing this and other charts, I decided Pink Noise might be better for tweeter break in,, since there really IS constant sound at all frequencies present.

The SRS 2's are in the other room, Hissing away as we speak.

Ricardo

Well, who would have thought that the cymbals only go up to 900 Hz.......

F1nut

There really is not much UP beyond 2K

Another case of not understanding what you are reading and more bad advice.

ka7niq

F1nut wrote: »

Another case of not understanding what you are reading and more bad advice.

Oh, I understand quite well.
There ARE harmonics up there, but they are much reduced in amplitude.

I was at CES once, walked by the Plasmatronics room.'
Sounded like someone was playing a clarinet in the room!

So, I walked in, and met dr Hill.

he had an IVIE portable spectrum analyzer on a tri pod.

I was surprised at the almost complete lack of any high frequency being displayed.

Pink Noise is FAR superior for tweeter and speaker break in, although warble tones would be nice.

North Creek uses Pink Noise, as do these people for some of their CD.

Read, and learn

F1NUT, if you disagree MAKE your case to the contrary


Jean-Marie Reynaud Magic CD
* Not available at the moment *


Below is a review from the French magazine Haute Fidelite ("High Fidelity") which sums up our own experiences with the JMR Magic CD.

Jean Marie Reynaud Magic CD Review - version 1.1
"Haute Fidelite" - May, 2001
by Laurent Thorin

This is the first time that a manufacturer has proposed a concrete solution to the thorny problem of break-in. Isolated initiatives have been attempted, like the three ranges of the XLO/Reference recordings, but they did not bring any notable advance in this area. The great innovation of the Magic CD of Jean-Marie Reynaud is to reduce the time of breaking in each of the elements in the high fidelity chain (one-tenth the time of musical program material).

The CD does not contain any musical content, and it must be considered as a purely technical instrument to be used only with materials of high quality. A random noise signal is recorded on this disc in a narrow bandwidth, with a sufficient level of noise to simulate extreme usage conditions of all the elements in the signal chain, notably the mechanical parts (CD transport and loudspeakers). It must thus be used with precaution in order to avoid any incident with respect to the sound level of the chain links (loudspeakers).

The narrow bandwidth of random noise recorded on this CD is produced by filtering the signal of a white noise generator fed by a series of modulators and filters. The resulting output of the signal is 1.2 MHz of narrow bandwidth random noise with bandwidths of 10Hz, 31.6Hz, 316Hz and 1,000Hz. The center frequency of each recorded sample on this CD ranges from 2 Hz to 200 kHz.

Composition
The first five tracks present narrow bands of random noise centered on 22Hz. They are intended for the breaking in of the suspensions of woofers. The next two tracks present a narrow band of random noise centered on 500Hz, which make integral demands on the bass and midrange cones. This ensures the break-in of this major element and stabilizes the mechanical junction between the spider, the cone and the voice coil.

The eighth track presents a narrow bandwidth of random noise centered on 1,500 Hz. It relates to the break-in of the crossover elements (strong demands upon the mechanical resonances of the coils and capacitors). Tracks 9 and 10 present a narrow bandwidth of random noise centered on 10kHz. These two tracks ensure an optimal break-in of the suspensions and diaphragms of the tweeters under a very weak noise.

The last track includes comprehensive pink noise, with white noise filters of -3dB by octave, it covers the entirety of the audible spectrum (of 20 Hz has 20KHz) with a constant energy. It is recommended for the break-in of interconnects and low-level signal paths. The volume of the amplifier could be set to zero to exercise transmission of the modulation between CD and the amplifier, for example.

Usage
Before playing this disc, it is imperative to position the volume of your amplifier on ' zero'. Start playing the disk with track 1: increase the volume gradually by looking at the cones of your woofers, their displacement will indicate a low level of noise. If you notice the voice coil bumping the bottom of the air-gap, reduce the volume immediately.

The randomness of the level produces a more dynamic signal. The sound which seemed confined in the box now becomes a part of listening. A series of repetitions of ranges 6 to 10 is recommended to soften the small point of aggression which can be presented by the tweeter with a brand new titanium membrane. Thereafter, the tweeter slips by with a beautiful frankness but no longer disturbs the cohesion of the unit. It is surprising to note that each hour of additional break-in produces its measure of improvement.

After the equivalent of twenty complete passages of Magic CD, the Titus XS evolved considerably and the comparison with the new model is rich in improvements. One could still continue breaking in for additional hours, but obviously Titus XS displays from now on the quasi-totality of its potential. Now, the loudspeakers are much more coherent. The bandwidth seems wider and linear. The transition enters the various registers effectively without any rupture nor hazardous distortion. The loudspeaker is more transparent and sharper, with more vitality.

But especially, it is infinitely more musical, offering a freedom of expression and an infinitely superior openness It is as if the new model seemed attached. We ran the second test with a pair of J.-M. Reynaud Twin MK2 under the same conditions. As before, we noticed a marked change as Magic CD did its work. Close listening allowed us to determine that, as for the Triangle, after ten hours of "driving", a significant evolution of the presentation was observed. At this stage, the loudspeaker starts coming to life, its potential clearly defined.

The Twin MK2 becomes definitely more natural and stable One notes especially a softer presentation, a tonal balance again more realistic. This improvement grows louder and louder until reaching the stage of the 25th repetition where the loudspeaker arrives at its fullness. One is from now on faced with a small model pearl of softness. This stage evolves a great refinement and a beautiful density. The small hardnesses of the beginning completely disappeared, and Twin MK2 presents an elegant and natural balance.

In terms of dynamics and excitement, the net gain is very great. Like the Triangle, the Reynaud Twins are metamorphosed by the effect of break-in. One must radically change into another product category to approach a superior level. After having been fully convinced by break-in experiences of these two loudspeakers, we are preparing some reviews on interconnects. We could note an incredible profit in performance on CD players and transports. The sufficiently aggressive signals of the first five tracks of the Magic CD does wonders for the mechanics of many players which they drive strongly.

Conclusion
This Magic CD has completely upset our practices. It now occupies a place of choice among our optimization arsenal. Let us be clear that before the arrival of the Magic CD, the break-in of a quality loudspeaker took between one hundred and two hundred hours (at least let us count two hundred hours for our excellent Pierre-Etienne Leon Quattro reference). Today, in about thirty hours, Magic CD makes it possible to render a quality loudspeaker almost completely operational.

In addition, it allowed a perception of the results realized with progressive break-in. Moreover, this processing is applicable whatever the technology employed on the loudspeaker. Let us note, in closing, that the Magic CD is also extremely powerful concerning CD players, cables, and electronics.

Laurent Thorin

Note: translated by Randy Bankert of O. S. Services, Inc., former exclusive North American distributor for Jean Marie Reynaud products

ka7niq

More "bad advice" F1NUT, JUST for you
The MORE you attack me, the stupider you look

Pink Noise CD
Pink noise has at least two main purposes with audio gear:

1) You can use it to check out the placement of your speakers, for example, by playing this CD to adjust the 'sweet spot' for the best place to listen to your music.

2) Manufacturers of a large number of high end speakers, monitors, and headphones now recommend that the drivers (speakers) in these products be subjected to a "break-in" period to achieve their ultimate audio-reproducing capabilities. Often times, though, this break-in period can involve inconveniently high levels of music and hours or even weeks and months of continued use before they're fully optimized. Some even require extra break-in time if you haven't used your speakers for a while.

BluEarthArts has developed a "set it and forget it" Pink Noise CD to help ease this obtrusive break-in process. We use "pink noise" instead of "white noise" because it contains significantly more low frequency energy for the woofers and larger speaker drivers in the system. The pink noise is also much easier on the ears than playing music at loud levels during break-in. The CD contains two tracks of mono pink noise, with one of these tracks inverted.

With the Pink Noise CD you can set up your speakers or headphones with the CD player in "repeat mode", and leave it all unattended during a continuous break-in while you do other things. Simple instructions on the break-in process are included. Our Pink Noise CD contains nearly 80 minutes of uninterrupted pink noise. Pink noise is also excellent for sound masking; for that purpose, however, we recommend our Moving Water CD (see below).

Pink Noise CD $9.98 + $2.95 shipping (US)

---

International Orders
Pink Noise CD $9.99 + $3.95 shipping


To pay by check, click here.

ka7niq

F1nut wrote: »

Another case of not understanding what you are reading and more bad advice.

Another Learning experience for you F1NUT, read and weep

The waveforms of acoustic sounds also have fractal elements. Any sound will be composed of its fundamental frequency (corresponding to the longest vibrational node of the instrument) and hogher harmonics (corresponding to shorter vibrational modes within the instrument). Amplitude of harmonics decreases inversely to the frequency of the harmonics, i.e. the 2nd harmonic of a sound is lower in amplitude than the fundamental, yet higher in amplitude than successive harmonics. If harmonics decreased by half in amplitude for every octave increase in frequency, a 1/f relationship occurs, which suggests a fractal; this doesn't happen with acoustic sounds however, but does describe the tendency of acoustical harmonic spectrums.

jakelm

All great info Ka, but that still doesnt change anything.

We still want (need) loudspeakers to deliver the full dynamic range of 20-20khz. Not just 900hz-2khz. Without the harmonics, things will sound terrible. The harmonic's volume is not low enough to be disregarded. Its still there and still needs to be reproduced by the loudspeaker. Soundstage and presence depends on it.

I think your point on Pink noise is opinion and I respect that.

But your point on harmonics....(IMO) is mute and really means absolutly nothing when dealing with, looking for, or understanding music or how loudspeakers reproduce it.

I think some of us mistook your post with, "there really is not much UP beyond 2k", when your own graph shows a ton above 2khz. It might not be the actual sound the instrument is playing, but the harmonics in which it produces is of great importance.

But I appriciate your info, it was a nice read.

ka7niq

jakelm wrote: »

All great infoKa, but that still doesnt change anything.

We still want (need) loudspeakers to deliver the full dynamic range of 20-20khz. Not just 900hz-2khz. Without the harmonics, things will sound terrible. The harmonic's volume is not low enough to be disregarded. Its still there and still needs to be reproduced by the loudspeaker. Soundstage and presence depends on it.

I think your point on Pink noise is opinion and I respect that.

But your point on harmonics....(IMO) is mute and really means absolutely nothing when dealing with, looking for, or understanding music or how loudspeakers reproduce it.

I think some of us mistook your post with, "there really is not much UP beyond 2k", when your own graph shows a ton above 2khz. It might not be the actual sound the instrument is playing, but the harmonics in which it produces is of great importance.

But I appreciate your info, it was a nice read.

My Comments have to do with speaker break in.
Of course there is harmonic content above 2K.
That is why we have tweeters:)

But the amplitude relative to the fundamental is diminished.

That is why Pink Noise is superior for tweeter break in, there is no amplitude reduction of musical harmonics occurring.

Pink noise is a constant source of noise containing all frequencies, not an intermittent source with amplitude diminished harmonics like a musical signal.

Thus, it is a faster way to break in a tweeter.

Just as auto manufacturers can simulate 100,000, 00 miles in two weeks on an engine testing machine, we can break in our new tweeters faster and better with Pink Noise.

ka7niq

Here is another chart, look at it, it is from PSB Speakers ?

MOST musical fundamentals fall Below 2K ?

F1nut

You've got to be one of the biggest dolts to come around here, so take your pink noise, wrap it up in your roofing paper and put it where the sun doesn't shine.

if you disagree MAKE your case to the contrary

It was so painfully obvious that it didn't seem necessary. Just play some music, which is far more enjoyable, not to mention safer than what you are doing.

jakelm

ka7niq wrote: »

Just as auto manufacturers can simulate 100,000, 00 miles in two weeks on an engine testing machine, we can break in our new tweeters faster and better with Pink Noise.

I know...but now you have a car with 100,000 miles on it. IMO, the same with drivers.

But ok. Its cool to have opinions.

ka7niq

F1nut wrote: »

You've got to be one of the biggest dolts to come around here, so take your pink noise, wrap it up in your roofing paper and put it where the sun doesn't shine.



It was so painfully obvious that it didn't seem necessary. Just play some music, which is far more enjoyable, not to mention safer than what you are doing.

You CAN'T refute it F1NUT, LOL
I can clearly see you feel quite threatened by me, and that is really unfortunate.
I try to share what I have learned with others, but there is always SOMEONE who doesn't want to accept the world is not Flat

Go tell North Creek, JMR Reynaud, and many other high end manufacturers that Pink Noise is "unsafe" just because some jackass at the Polk forum SAID so.

Here is part of a review by Daniel Kumin reviewing some Focal speakers.

SETUP Focal's Chorus 826V towers and SW800V sub include very nice cast-metal bases with adjustable spikes (caps included for the hardwood-floor set). All five speakers have good-grade multi-way metal input terminals, so hookup was easy. The SW800V includes the usual sub level and crossover controls and a full set of both line- and speaker-level inputs and outputs, but since I used my pre/pro's crossover as usual, I simply connected the SW800V's "LFE" input, bypassing its internal crossover. Focal's manuals urge break-in of their speakers, so I played the full suite over 3 nights and a morning, using a CD of mixed music and pink noise on repeat, at about 10 dB below reference level. To activate all five units, I used my preamp's all-channels stereo mode. (My dog is now used to the speaker-break-in routine, but he still doesn't like it much.)

Wait F1-BUTT, there is even MORE!
Here is an excerpt review from a Stereophile review.

Break-in
Kevro's Robert Sinclair had advised that I "burn-in" the speakers for "a good two weeks" before I did any critical listening or measuring, due to the drive-units and some crossover components changing during the initial period. Certainly, there was a very bright edge to the sound of the speakers straight from the box that intruded on the music. Accordingly, therefore, I placed the speakers face-to-face, wired them out-of-phase, and drove them with high-level pink noise for about 48 hours After the break-in period, the mid-treble peakiness was significantly less disturbing. The drive-unit fixing bolts all seemed a little loose, however, so this is probably something that Studio 6 owners should check regularly

heiney9

Hook, line and sinker

H9

ka7niq

heiney9 wrote: »

Hook, line and sinker

H9

Hello H9

Speaking of Nelson Pass, I have a local guy wanting to swap me a Nakamichi PA 7 MK 2 Stasis amp for my Luxman M 117, even up.

Don't think I am gonna though.

The Luxman M 117 is a good amp too, really nice on Horns.

heiney9

ka7niq wrote: »

Hello H9

Speaking of Nelson Pass, I have a local guy wanting to swap me a Nakamichi PA 7 MK 2 Stasis amp for my Luxman M 117, even up.

Don't think I am gonna though.

The Luxman M 117 is a good amp too, really nice on Horns.

PA 7 MK II is a very sweet amp. If it were me I'd be very very tempted. Contemplating the Aleph 30 that's on Audiogon right now, of course won't work with my SDA's unless I have the AI-1 interphase and I have no time to build one in a short period of time. I'd hate to buy the Aleph 30 and let it sit for a month or so. A real dilema for me.

ka7niq

heiney9 wrote: »

PA 7 MK II is a very sweet amp. If it were me I'd be very very tempted. Contemplating the Aleph 30 that's on Audiogon right now, of course won't work with my SDA's unless I have the AI-1 interphase and I have no time to build one in a short period of time. I'd hate to buy the Aleph 30 and let it sit for a month or so. A real dilema for me.

WILL the Nakamichi PA 7 work ?

heiney9

ka7niq wrote: »

WILL the Nakamichi PA 7 work ?

With SDA's? Yes.

F1nut

heiney9 wrote: »

Hook, line and sinker

H9

Hehe....works every time.

Next!

ka7niq

F1nut wrote: »

Hehe....works every time.

Next!

Yes, you are quite accomplished at it !

#48 01-02-2005, 01:28 PM
omer
AK Member Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,555


F1Nut and Dave918, it's clear that you both have your own opinions, which makes this place as great as it is. As much fun as flaming can be, sometimes it strikes a nerve, even if it wasn't intentional. So, sit back, take a deep breath, put on the format you like best, and ENJOY THE MUSIC

Systems

pink noise is great for testing purposes but I break in my drivers the old fashioned way,listening to music.