Getting true SACD sound

treitz3

I have recently had a friend of mine relay this little tidbit of information to me and I would like to hear what SACD is REALLY about in my rig. I currently have a Denon DVD2910 which I am pleased with....but I want more. I want what the format of SACD can truly deliver. This is what he said.....

"Most inexpensive SACD/CD players and universal players down mix the SACD (DSD) signal to PCM, which will not allow you to really hear what SACD is all about. There isn't a universal on the market that will sound better than a good dedicated 2 channel SACD/CD player.....take that to the bank."

1 - How much dough are we talkin' for a new or used dedicated SACD player that does SACD justice.

2 - How does one know when cruising the 'gone as to which players down mix and which provide true SACD.

3 - I found this one and it's $2800.00...
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1195324392
To get the best that SACD has to offer, am I looking in the right spot, or should I turn around and go down another road?

I want the real SACD sound, not compromised SACD. If I can get a giant killer for less, LMK. If I need 4K, let me know. I just want to be prepared. Go ahead, I'm sitting down.......

treitz3

Forgot to mention that I would prefer one with a class "A" output. Any input would be greatly appreciated and thanks in advance for any and all input.

Systems

To get the absolute best from SACD a dedicted player like the MF's the Krell and better Sony units are the way to go but costly.

Although not in the same league sonically as the dedicated units mentioned above I know that some of the older Pioneer universal players(DV563,DV45) do not convert DSD to PCM unless the Bass Management (subwoofer)is engaged. Later generations (DV578 and newer)do convert to PCM regardless of whether BM engaged or not.This was done as a cost cutting measure as it allowed them to use less expensive DAC's.

danger boy

I would not spend that kind of money on a format that is going no where fast. If i was you. i'd look for a player that is much less expensive. but that's just me.. a cheap dude. There just aren't enough good titles for me to drop that kind of scratch on a SACD playa, ever. I'd rather drop that kind of coin on a good turntable or a DAC or a tube CDP.

treitz3

I can see where you are coming from Mr. Danger, but to me SACD produces the best sound out there that my ears have run across. Yes, selections are limited but when you are chasing the utmost in audio fidelity and what it has to offer, SACD is the way to go.

If that means I need to buy a boatload of SACD's and that will be it for the rest of my life, then so be it. I'll keep buying them when everybody else loses the format. I mean, to me....why would I blow so much dough on a system that has sub par sources? I have always subscribed to the philosophy of "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****".

I've lost the cassette tape, Laserdisc, Beta, VCR, RTR formats and I will not look back. I've heard the MP3, Ipod and other "convenience" formats and I turn and walk away. With SACD however, I look forward to nothing but the future, even if there isn't any for the mainstream.

DarqueKnight

All of the better SACD players (the ones that do not down convert DSD to PCM and that use quality circuit components) that I know of also have excellent Redbook CD playback circuitry. For a jazz lover such as myself, the SACD pickings are very slim. I knew this going into my purchase and I chose an SACD player that had a reputation for excellent Redbook playback as well as SACD playback. The Cary CD 306 SACD player that I chose has optimized circuits for both CD, HDCD, and SACD playback. It also has an upsampling feature for Redbook CD that can improve the sound of some CD's.

If you are interested in the MF SACD player on A'gon, shoot a PM to F1nut. He has some personal experience with MF gear.

It will be easy to compile a list of well regarded SACD players after doing some research. You should also look into modified players. Some players can be brought up to reference quality with strategic modifications. Modified Sony SCD-777ES players can be had for less than $1500.

Since you are interested in a satisfying and "real" SACD experience, I must caution you that research is required on the software part of the SACD equation as well. Due to poor recording and digital transfer procedures, some SACD's are no better, and in some cases worse than, their Redbook counterparts. You should research the sound quality of every prospective SACD purchase so that you do not pay a premium price for nothing.

Good luck and good hunting.

Face

Just picked up a Integra SACD player for $200 off Audiogon the other week. I couldn't imagine spending big bucks on a player due to the very limited selection.

F1nut

One of the tricks is finding a SACD player that does SACD and redbook well. As some have noted, SACD software that is of interest to you may be somewhat limited, so getting a player that does both well is key.

That said, the Tri-Vista in the Audiogon ad is one of those players that does both very well, but they have delevoped reliabilty issues and I can no longer recommend it. The newer kW would be a great choice. The stock Sony's do SACD pretty well, but lack on redbook. I don't consider the OPPO an option. The Modwright modded Sony's do both well as do the Exemplar modded Denon's. The top players from Marantz are worth a look. The Cary SACD player is real nice and will do both very well. Esoteric has recently upgraded their better players after comments that they were too sterile sounding and as I understand, they have been sucessful at presenting a warmer sound, so definitely worth a look. The new EMM Labs unit is probably as good as it gets on both formats. It upsamples redbook to twice the sample rate for SACD, impressive to say the least.

You'll get to listen to top notch SACD/CD at Polkfest. Consider waiting to buy something until after the fun.

F1nut

Interestly, someone on Audiogon was asking the same question tonight.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1191173428

Music Joe

I think? The Marantz SA8001 which incorporates the Cirrus Logic CS4397
(Super DAC) might do DSD and PCM conversion.

treitz3

Thank you for the replies.

Well, I have the Denon DVD2910, if I get that Exemplar modded, would it still be down mixed and would they convert it to a class A output? I don't mind getting another player or buying one and having it modded at all, I just want to be sure I'm getting all that SACD has to offer without it being down mixed.

Looking forward to hearing SACD without the down mix crap goin' on at Polkfest this weekend. BTW, that isn't me asking that question on the 'gone last night, but I appreciate the link. As for buying one soon, no. I am going to research a little bit more and listen to some different gear before I make this purchase. I just bought the Denon last fall because I wanted to try SACD in my rig. I love it and now I want more. It's kind of like being addicted to crack. "Gotta have more". "More, more, more!".

Systems

treitz3 wrote: »

Thank you for the replies.

Well, I have the Denon DVD2910, if I get that Exemplar modded, would it still be down mixed

Im not familiar with Exempler but if the 2910 downconnverts to PCM then it still will after the mods.

and would they convert it to a class A output?

Only if they modify the biasing of the op amps in the output stage.

Do you have a link to Exemplar that describes their mods?

brijenjas

I may be mistaken here, but I thought if you selected "Source Direct" on the Denon that you would be using DSD without any down conversion.

treitz3

brijenjas wrote:

I may be mistaken here, but I thought if you selected "Source Direct" on the Denon that you would be using DSD without any down conversion.

I'll be damned. I didn't notice that button until you mentioned this. I will report back as to whether or not I hear a change. Thank you.

I printed the manual after I purchased the unit, but I never took the time to read it. 44 [or more] pages of blah, blah, blah.......

Original question(s) still applies.

Systems

treitz3 wrote: »

Original question(s) still applies.

As I mentioned in post #12 if the Denon in stock form downconverts DSD to PCM it will do so after any mods are done. Otherwise a redesign of the digital section and writing new DSP firmware would be necessary.

treitz3

So does anybody know with the "Source Direct" button engaged that it is true SACD? I'm off to find the manual......

treitz3

Still haven't found the manual, but when I played around with the source direct button, the sound got MUCH better when I kept pressing the button until all the lights went off except the green ring around the power button.

Still interested if this is down mixed or not, regardless of the improvement. Damn, this sounds good though. Much more accurate. Thanks!

Polkersince85

From a Denon site: See the RED line at bottom.

DVD-2910 Progressive Scan/Scaling DVD Player (Black Finish)

Key Features
Sony CXD-2753 Second Generation DSD Decoder
Built-in Dolby Digital, dts, DVD-Audio and SACD decoders with 5.1 analog outputs
Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz DSD-1791 Audio DACs that decode PCM and DSD signals discretely with no cross-conversion of DSD

Plays Audio/Video CDs; DVD-Audio/Video; Super Audio CD; DVD +/-R/RW(conditional); Audio CD-R; Audio CD-RW; Decoders for MP3 (128kbps or greater recommended) and WMA-8 (64 ~ 160kbps) CD-R/RW & DVD +/-R/RW discs
uts
Pure Direct Modes to defeat unneeded portions of player for the ultimate in audio performance

mulveling

Going from memory on both, which admittedly is a stretch, SACD on the Sony SCD-777ES ($900-$1000 on the 'gon) will whip a Benchmark DAC1. Yep, it's true DSD done right by the company that invented it. It's true that redbook isn't a strength of the stock Sony decks, but I don't think it's worse than the DAC1 either. Overall, for digital, I liked the Sony players and wasn't terribly impressed by the DAC1. The DAC1 isn't the end-all of truth or neutrality, and it definitely lacked the enjoyability factor IMO.

The SCD777ES is an impressively solid piece at > 60 lbs; the only problems are:
* if the transport goes out you're looking at a $300-$400 repair
* load time for disks is veerrrryy slooowww
* shipping damage is more likely, even with factory packaging; with anything less it's a certainty

treitz3

OK, finally got time to call Denon Tech support and concerning the DVD-2910 on today's call, [will call back 2 more times just to make damn sure, hehe] the gentleman said that I will not get true SACD on two channel analog outs. [which is where I have it hooked up to]

The player does offer true SACD and not a down mix, however, you have to go through the 6-channel [as he called it....5.1 actually] analog. Then, by using the remote which I don't have, set to 2 channel SACD, then select the source direct button until all lights and the screen goes off [with the exception of the green light around the power button]....THEN you have true SACD.

When I asked him how much a remote control was, he put me on hold for a minute or two, got back on the horn and told me that he had one in inventory and that he would send me one at no charge, that I should have it within the next couple of days. Very impressive. I bought the unit as a discontinued floor model for 200 bucks plus tax and now they give me a free remote AND I find out I'm getting true SACD. I'm happy.

Being skeptical, I will call again. As soon as I hear the same response from 3 different folks that know there sheite, then I'll accept the fact that I have true SACD and then I can take my time selecting/researching a dedicated SACD player.

Thanks to brijenjas, I at least in the meantime, have better sound using the "source direct" button, which according to the technition offers DSD, but not true SACD, it basically kills all unnecessary circuits for a pure signal which does, after all improve the sound.

shack

You have a solid base to start with. How about simply upgrading what you have?

http://www.sacdmods.com/DVD2910.htm

treitz3

Just had a thought and now I'm a little confused. I thought DSD was true SACD.

Is it not?

Systems

treitz3 wrote: »

Just had a thought and now I'm a little confused. I thought DSD was true SACD.

Is it not?

Yes it is.

treitz3

Arrrggghh. Then why would he say that on 2 channel SACD [using 6 channel analog outputs/2 channel through the remote mode function] the signal isn't true SACD, but under the same conditions with the source direct button engaged, I WOULD be getting true SACD?

This is where I usually start pulling my hair out.....but I don't have any to pull damnit. This is why I would like to call them more than once. This is not a joke to me. I'm dead serious about wanting true SACD. Arrrggghhh!

I'm off to get a beer now.........

Polkitup2

My Denon 3910 has a "pure direct select " mode which disables the lights and video. The "source direct" setup selection disables bass management for "pure" DSD on multichannel recordings. It is my understanding that "soruce direct" does not apply to two channel SACD. I have wondered from day one if those two channel analogue outputs provide SACD output in addition to the multi-channel outputs.

Systems

Polkitup2 wrote: »

I have wondered from day one if those two channel analogue outputs provide SACD output in addition to the multi-channel outputs.

I can't speak for the Denon but I know some Pioneers use the same op amp to drive the 2 chan outputs as well as the left and right front portion of the 5.1.So it is possible that some Denon's do this as well.

schwarcw

Tom, Several of us on the Forum own the Sony Modwright NA999ES or the NA9100ES. Everyone I know that owns one is impressed by both the SACD and the redbook playback. New, modified units can cost over $3K but used ones can be had for about half that price. If you go with a higher price unit, (Marantz SA-7S1, Cary, Krell, EMM labs, MF KW or some others, make sure you can get a 30 day money back guarantee. The other thing that I would do, would be to get a good pair of headphones to hear the subtle differences. If you can't hear it with a good headphone (with headphone amp) you won't hear it on your big rig. Then you need to decide if these differences are worth the $5K or more you'll pay. The Sony SCD-1 is also a good unit. Used, it can cost $2,500 to $3K.

Good luck!

janmike

So is it a fact that the players that convert DSD to PCM are inferior? I notice that the Esoteric X-03 does in fact do a conversion so would this device not be as "musical" as one that does not.

Systems

Any time an extra convertion step takes place there is a potential for degradation.How much the effect of converting DSD to PCM has on sound quality is debatable.
Edit.It is also depends on the quality of the DAC's etc used in the particular units.

treitz3

For me [in my rig] there is quite a difference. The difference is / may not be between the down mix to PCM and SACD, it may just be the fact that Source Direct button killing the unneeded circuitry. Still not quite sure if I am hearing true SACD at this point [according to the Denon tech. #1, I am not], but I have received the remote and will be doing some experimenting when I get back into town, following the Denon tech's. directions.

Hopefully I will be able to get on the horn with Denon Tech support this Mon. or Teus. and they can reconfirm what the first tech told me without changing their stance. With the improvement that the source direct button gives, I am looking forward to true SACD sound from this unit.

Polkitup2

I finally tested the 2 channel outputs versus the multi-channel outputs on my Denon 3910 to see if in fact the 2 channel outputs pass SACD. I used a Diana Krall SACD that has very noticeable difference in sound quality between the SACD and the CD mix. My test indicated that the two channel outputs are SACD.

And yes, you definately need to have source direct enabled for true SACD. If not the Denon will convert the DSD to PCM to do the bass management.