Silver Cable Economics
DarqueKnight
Posts: 6,765
Introduction
Audio interconnects and speaker cables using silver conductors have been highly regarded by audiophiles for decades, but have never really "caught on" to the extent that they provided serious competition to copper based cables . Although silver is a superior electrical conductor over copper, it is only 4.4% to 7% more conductive depending on the purity of the silver.
Recently, there seems to be increasing interest in silver based cables among audiophiles and among high end cable manufacturers. It is common knowledge that silver is a much more expensive metal than copper. However, the disparity in cost between silver and copper based cables cannot be accounted for simply by the cost differences between the two metals. Some other economic driver must be at work. This article examines two well regarded speaker cables to determine if the "silver premium" is justified.
PS Audio xStream Resolution Speaker Cable
From the PS Audio website:
"There are two model groups of xStream loudspeaker cables, Reference and Transcendent. The Reference series is available in both single wire and bi-wire and the Transcendent is available only in single wire with one length (due to the high cost of solid silver). The difference between the two lines is Reference is constructed using single crystal PCOCC copper while the Transcendent is built with solid silver."
For a 3 meter pair of xStream speaker cables, the copper based Reference is priced at $799.95 and the silver based Transcendent is priced at $3,999.95. The cables are identical except for the conductor metal and the outer jacket of the Transcendent is interwoven with red threads and the outer jacket of the Reference is interwoven with blue threads. Therefore, the only thing that can account for the 5X difference in price between the Transcendent and the Reference is the cost of the silver.
How Much Silver And At What Cost?
Each conductor of the xStream speaker cables measures 4.592 square millimeters. PS Audio refers to the wire size as approximately 11 gauge. However, the xStream conductors are actually 11% larger than 11 gauge but 15% smaller than 10 gauge.
To find out how much silver is contained in the cables, we need to calculate the volume and weight of a single 3 meter conductor and multiply that number by 4. The weight can then be multiplied by the cost of silver per ounce.
The volume of a cylindrical conductor 3 meters long with a cross sectional area of 4.592 square millimeters is V= (cross sectional area) x (length) = 4.592 mm^2 x 3000 mm =13,776 mm^3 = 13.776 cm^3.
Silver weighs 10.49 grams per cubic centimeter, therefore the weight per conductor is:
(13.776 cm^3) x (10.49 g/cm^3) = 144.51 grams. Multiplying this result by 4 conductors per pair of cables gives 578.04 grams of silver for a 3 meter cable pair. Converting grams to ounces gives (578.04 grams) x (1 ounce/28.35 grams) = 20.39 ounces of silver per 3 meter cable pair.
As with all precious metals, the price of silver is highly volatile and fluctuates continually due to various market and environmental conditions. The highest price I have been able to find for silver since the year 2000 was 13.68 per ounce in April of 2007. Using this high figure and multiplying it by the 20.39 ounces of silver in the Transcendent speaker cables gives ($13.68/ounce) x (20.39 ounces) = $278.92.
Therefore, a $3,999.95 pair of xStream Transcendent speaker cables contains, at most, approximately $280 worth of silver. Of course, the raw silver has to be processed into silver wire. If we generously assume that the wire drawing process doubles the price of the silver content, we are now at $560 worth of silver wire per 3 meter cable pair. Even if we were to make the absurd assumption that the wire drawing process tripled the cost of the silver content, we would then have the cost of the silver at $840.
Actually, the cost that audio cable manufacturers pay for silver is much less than the market price due to volume buying, either as an individual company or through a cooperative agreement with several companies.
I am having some difficulty justifying the $3200 premium charged for the Transcendent silver cables, even though the additional cost for the silver wire is only a few hundred dollars more than the PCOCC* copper.
Disclaimer: Please do not misconstrue this as singling out PS Audio. My personal experience with them is that they make quality products and offer exceptional customer service. The practice of unjustifiable and often unreasonable prices for silver cable products is widely followed in the industry. The same discrepancies could be shown for other silver cable manufacturers.
*PCOCC=Pure Copper by Ohno Continuous Casting Process-A method for annealing and drawing copper so that there are no grain boundaries in the crystal structure of the wire.
Audio interconnects and speaker cables using silver conductors have been highly regarded by audiophiles for decades, but have never really "caught on" to the extent that they provided serious competition to copper based cables . Although silver is a superior electrical conductor over copper, it is only 4.4% to 7% more conductive depending on the purity of the silver.
Recently, there seems to be increasing interest in silver based cables among audiophiles and among high end cable manufacturers. It is common knowledge that silver is a much more expensive metal than copper. However, the disparity in cost between silver and copper based cables cannot be accounted for simply by the cost differences between the two metals. Some other economic driver must be at work. This article examines two well regarded speaker cables to determine if the "silver premium" is justified.
PS Audio xStream Resolution Speaker Cable
From the PS Audio website:
"There are two model groups of xStream loudspeaker cables, Reference and Transcendent. The Reference series is available in both single wire and bi-wire and the Transcendent is available only in single wire with one length (due to the high cost of solid silver). The difference between the two lines is Reference is constructed using single crystal PCOCC copper while the Transcendent is built with solid silver."
For a 3 meter pair of xStream speaker cables, the copper based Reference is priced at $799.95 and the silver based Transcendent is priced at $3,999.95. The cables are identical except for the conductor metal and the outer jacket of the Transcendent is interwoven with red threads and the outer jacket of the Reference is interwoven with blue threads. Therefore, the only thing that can account for the 5X difference in price between the Transcendent and the Reference is the cost of the silver.
How Much Silver And At What Cost?
Each conductor of the xStream speaker cables measures 4.592 square millimeters. PS Audio refers to the wire size as approximately 11 gauge. However, the xStream conductors are actually 11% larger than 11 gauge but 15% smaller than 10 gauge.
To find out how much silver is contained in the cables, we need to calculate the volume and weight of a single 3 meter conductor and multiply that number by 4. The weight can then be multiplied by the cost of silver per ounce.
The volume of a cylindrical conductor 3 meters long with a cross sectional area of 4.592 square millimeters is V= (cross sectional area) x (length) = 4.592 mm^2 x 3000 mm =13,776 mm^3 = 13.776 cm^3.
Silver weighs 10.49 grams per cubic centimeter, therefore the weight per conductor is:
(13.776 cm^3) x (10.49 g/cm^3) = 144.51 grams. Multiplying this result by 4 conductors per pair of cables gives 578.04 grams of silver for a 3 meter cable pair. Converting grams to ounces gives (578.04 grams) x (1 ounce/28.35 grams) = 20.39 ounces of silver per 3 meter cable pair.
As with all precious metals, the price of silver is highly volatile and fluctuates continually due to various market and environmental conditions. The highest price I have been able to find for silver since the year 2000 was 13.68 per ounce in April of 2007. Using this high figure and multiplying it by the 20.39 ounces of silver in the Transcendent speaker cables gives ($13.68/ounce) x (20.39 ounces) = $278.92.
Therefore, a $3,999.95 pair of xStream Transcendent speaker cables contains, at most, approximately $280 worth of silver. Of course, the raw silver has to be processed into silver wire. If we generously assume that the wire drawing process doubles the price of the silver content, we are now at $560 worth of silver wire per 3 meter cable pair. Even if we were to make the absurd assumption that the wire drawing process tripled the cost of the silver content, we would then have the cost of the silver at $840.
Actually, the cost that audio cable manufacturers pay for silver is much less than the market price due to volume buying, either as an individual company or through a cooperative agreement with several companies.
I am having some difficulty justifying the $3200 premium charged for the Transcendent silver cables, even though the additional cost for the silver wire is only a few hundred dollars more than the PCOCC* copper.
Disclaimer: Please do not misconstrue this as singling out PS Audio. My personal experience with them is that they make quality products and offer exceptional customer service. The practice of unjustifiable and often unreasonable prices for silver cable products is widely followed in the industry. The same discrepancies could be shown for other silver cable manufacturers.
*PCOCC=Pure Copper by Ohno Continuous Casting Process-A method for annealing and drawing copper so that there are no grain boundaries in the crystal structure of the wire.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
Post edited by DarqueKnight on
Comments
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Excellent post!
For my shorter runs I use silver I/C. Too bad I can't afford them for my speaker cables or longer runs(14')."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
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Not knowing a damn thing about this stuff I'll throw in my $.02. From what I can gather silver clad IC's & speaker cables are "supposed" to be a tad on the bright side. Pure copper is "supposed" to be more on the warmer side. Some guys won't touch silver stuff with a 10' pole because of the way they say it sounds. There's one company that I know of (http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/home/home%20-%20about%20lat.html)that molts the two metals together to "supposidly" give you the musical prowness of both without either one being too prevalent. Again, what the hell do I know. The only thing I do know is that my Virtual Dynamics David Series stuff is in my system for the long haul."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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I think some people assign brightness to silver and warmth to copper simply because of the colors of the two metals. The metal used in the conductors is just one part of a cable's sound equation. Type and quality of terminations, insulation type and quality, and type and quality of shielding all contribute to a cable's "sound".Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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I just recently placed two sets of home made silver wire PBJ's terminated with WBT 0101 (that's three conductors per run) locking RCA plugs. One set is between my preamp and my high freq. amp and the other set is between my preamp and my low freq. amp.
This silver wire is anything but bright. First off the bass response is unbelievable. Secondly, the clarity and detail of the highs has increased to the point of me wondering how on earth such thin runs of wire can make such a marked improvement in the tone of the instruments and the imaging in the sound stage. Again it is anything but bright.
I was using a set of Garth ICs terminated with the WBT 0101s on the highs. These ICs, when I purchased this set of ICs in 1987 had a MSRP price of $1000 per meter. These ICs are no slouch at conduction and sound really good.
The ICs on the low freqs. were Belden 1505F w/Canary connectors. These are not very expensive ICs but they are good stable ICs.
I know the conductors in the Garth IC are somewhere in the 8 to 10 gauge equivalent neighborhood. I'm not sure of the Beldens.
So this again gets me to thinking how can these thin silver runs of wire sound so different and IMHO excellent. It has to be the design . . . in the PBJ case the braid and the fact that they are unshielded. The third conductor is terminated at the preamp side and left hanging on the amp side.
0.02 in! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I am having some difficulty justifying the $3200 premium charged for the Transcendent silver cables, even though the additional cost for the silver wire is only a few hundred dollars more than the PCOCC* copper.
The high-end audio industry, and other small industries, are such that using the best parts or materials in a product don't always make economic sense, and the premium that would have to be charged would deter buyers from purchasing. For example, Black Gate capacitors are/were considered some of the best available, but they were not used in many high-end CD players because using something a notch lower and less expensive made more sense for both the manufacturer and the end user. If the manufacturer uses marginally lower end parts, and could sell the end product for $5K, but the cost of the product would go to $10K with marginally better but more expensive parts, the lower end parts will normally be chosen. The better parts would cost nowhere near $5K separately, probably $500 to $1K at most. Parts and materials are a small part of the cost of a high-end audio product. Design, tooling, manufacturing, marketing, and dealer markup comprise a huge chunk of the MSRP on an audio product. Every extra dollar that is spent on parts and materials has a very large, disproportionate effect on the final asking price for the product. Economies of scale very rarely come into play in high-end audio, although the factor does play a role in general consumer audio/video products where DAC chips can be bought by the thousand for pennies a piece. So, it's not surprising to me that the relatively small increase in materials cost for PS Audio's silver content cables creates an MSRP that seems at first inexcusably high. It's prices like those, however, that confine sales of the product to a very limited number of consumers and also limits production. Limited production equals higher prices. Frankly, I'm surprised PS Audio even markets the cables given the extra few hundred dollars the materials may cost. -
The premium for silver based items in the world of audiophilia is crazy!!!!
On another note.......not a direct comparison, but in the band instrument world a silver plated instrument has routinely less than 20% markup (not 500%) over an identical lacquered brass instrument. They are universally considered to also have a brighter sound than their lacquered counterparts, but this is due to the silver plating having a harder resonant quality than sprayed on lacquer clearcoating. A gold or red brass instrument may have more copper in the metal mix, but the lacquer coating is really what makes them more mellow than a silver one not the fact that silver "looks" brighter.
I use silver DIY ICs in my rig, but won't pay the premium for retail pricing of such.....HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable
2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable -
Economies of scale very rarely come into play in high-end audio, although the factor does play a role in general consumer audio/video products where DAC chips can be bought by the thousand for pennies a piece.
True. Economies of scale rarely come into play in the high end of any product category. In these cases, snob appeal plays a bigger role in retail pricing than parts and production costs. Furthermore, speaker cables, interconnects, and phono cartridges traditionally have outrageous retail markups in order to make up for the often thinner profit margins on amps and source components. The general equation of Retail Price = 5 x Parts Costs is not often followed in high end audio for reasons of "cachet" or snob appeal. If the Transcendent cables have a parts cost of $500 (which is probably fairly close to the actual cost), then the 5:1 ratio gives a MSRP of $2,500. However, if PS Audio wants the Transcendents to be seen as a "signature" product on a par with cables in the $4,000 range, then, of course an additional premium will be added.
Outrageous MSRP's also have a beneficial effect on the gray market (sales through non-authorized dealers). Although many manufacturers have a policy of discouraging grey market sales, the reality is that a sale is a sale is a sale and they know full well that they are not going to be able to move sufficient quantities of a particular product if the MSRP is strictly enforced. A large percentage of gray market goods are supplied from authorized dealers. Again, a sale is a sale is a sale. For a product with an MSRP of $4,000, a cost of goods of $500 and a grey market street price of $2,000, the consumer is given the impression that he is getting an exceptionally good deal. Although the customer is paying half off "list", he or she is still paying 4X cost of goods. In this scenario, everyone is happy, from manufacturer, to retailer, to consumer.
Manufacturers that have been successful in generating high demand or "cachet" for their product(s) can afford to be somewhat heavy handed in discouraging gray market sales of their goods. However, such manufacturers are few. In crowded audio market segments such as cables and phono cartridges, such heavy handedness can be suicidal.Frankly, I'm surprised PS Audio even markets the cables given the extra few hundred dollars the materials may cost.
I'm not. Why wouldn't they cash in on a popular trend in audio cables?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I have to admit that I also have read countless times that silver is brighter sounding than copper is. I bought a pair of silver interconnects the other day from a polkie here and am looking forward to trying them and posting my impressions regarding the brightness or lack of such. I plan on first trying them between my combi player direct to my amp, this should give me the best chance of hearing them as uncolored as is possible. I will post here again when they arrive and I have listened to them.
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all
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I have to admit that I also have read countless times that silver is brighter sounding than copper is. I bought a pair of silver interconnects the other day from a polkie here and am looking forward to trying them and posting my impressions regarding the brightness or lack of such. I plan on first trying them between my combi player direct to my amp, this should give me the best chance of hearing them as uncolored as is possible. I will post here again when they arrive and I have listened to them.
REGARDS SNOW
I have $10 that says they don't sound bright!:D -
Lol I hope your right.:)hearingimpared wrote: »I have $10 that says they don't sound bright!:D
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I am having some difficulty justifying the $3200 premium charged for the Transcendent silver cables, even though the additional cost for the silver wire is only a few hundred dollars more than the PCOCC* copper.
It really doesn't matter what the cost of manufacture vs sales cost is. What you are paying for is the sound produced as compared to other cable options. The better something sounds the more you can be charged for it. If it is too far out of line the price will surely come down.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
It really doesn't matter what the cost of manufacture vs sales cost is. What you are paying for is the sound produced as compared to other cable options.
That would be cool if there was always a linear correlation between price and performance, e.g. the resolution is twice a good, therefore the price is twice as high. Often, the price is twice or four times as high and the performance improvement is 10% to 15%. However, if someone is willing to pay a stiff premium for incremental performance...go for it.If it is too far out of line the price will surely come down.
True. If not from the manufacturer, then certainly on the gray market.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I have never heard a side by side comparison of any high grade wire as either an interconnect or speaker cable compared to your average products. I buy gold ended patch cords and use oxygen free good grade 10 GA copper speaker wire. I just can't imagine spending the amount of money that some of these wires cost -$22.00 per foot at one site whose link was posted here-nor can I believe there is that big of a difference in the sound in one vs. the other. I subscribed to a high end audio magazine for a few years and it sure seems that there's more snake oil being sold to that market than there was in any traveling circus show in the early 1900s. A little theory and a colorful brochure with graphs and charts seem to justify insane prices for many of these products. I have to believe that there is a strong psychological effect in the sheer cost alone making the buyers believe they are getting something for their money -if it costs alot it must be good- even if its only true value is the opportunity to act like a snob about something the great masses of the unwashed and uniformed are not privvy to. At work I have used a signal generator and my storage oscilloscope to compare signals sent through various sizes and grades of wire and except for wire size, and at some point weak signals through extreme conductor lengths I have never noticed any real differences, degradation, in the signals passed through one material vs. another. Granted, the signals are of a single amplitude and a given frequency and maybe things are different with lots of harmonic content, but still, if some materials are as inferior as some claims I have read say they are I think I would have seen something.... I know some materials are better conductors that others, but unless everything I know is wrong materials like gold and platinum were originally used in circuitry where small voltages and tiny currents were the rule. In these cases high conductivity was extremely important. As with the above cited price for 9 GA silver wire, the way my stereo is set up I would have over $3000.00 in speaker wire alone! Personally, I would buy upgraded components before I would drop that kind of cash on speaker wires. (I'm the same way in the garage. If I have $3000.00 to spend on garagre stuff I'll buy $3000.00 worth of tools before I'll spend $3000.00 on a tool box to hold them in) Now, if I had the kind of disposable income that those who can buy $30,000.00 speakers and $20,000.00 each CD DAC and transport separates have I probably would drop that kind of cash in pursuit of theoretical system perfection. If anybody could point me to unbiased technical information that supports that these ultra expensive wires and interconnects produce audible sonic improvements that are more than subtle manifestations of wishful thinking please share.The Beloved System:
Parasound Halo P3 Preamp
Parasound Halo T3 AM/FM Tuner
Grant Audio Tube Buffer
ADC Sound Shaper II IC Graphic Equalizer
Polk XRT12 XM Satellite Radio Receiver
2 Carver TFM 35x Power Amps
Harmon Kardon T45 Turntable w\ Benz MC 20E Phono Cartridge
Vincent Phono Preamp (not enough gain in the Parasound Phono In)
Cambridge Audio 640C V2 CD Player
Nakamichi BX300 Cassette Deck
Polk RTi 12 Main Speakers
2 Polk PSW 1000 Subwoofers -
If anybody could point me to unbiased technical information that supports that these ultra expensive wires and interconnects produce audible sonic improvements that are more than subtle manifestations of wishful thinking please share.
You won't get "unbiased technical information" at least not here. If you would buy a high end cable with a thirty day money back guarantee and try it for yourself in your system, you may find that all the measuring equipment and theory doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to the tonal improvements that can be had by changing/upgrading ICs and or speaker wires. Try it you may find yourself picking your jaw up off the floor!:) -
If anybody could point me to unbiased technical information that supports that these ultra expensive wires and interconnects produce audible sonic improvements that are more than subtle manifestations of wishful thinking please share.
For high performance audio gear, the practical reality is that the proof is in the hearing. Much of the audible differences and improvements in performance among audio gear is due to electrical signal interactions at the molecular and atomic level. For example, the part of an audio signal which conveys spatial information, and the apparent "weight" of sounds within a soundstage, is relatively small and easily obscured in noise. It, like any physical phenomenon, can be measured, but the devices required for such measurements are far beyond the means of most laboratories.
It would be great if someone would compile a taxonomy on the interactions of complex electrical signals as they pass through different types of material (e.g. mylar dielectric, polypropylene dielectric, various purities of silver wire, various purities of copper wire, etc.).
Actually, unless one has some hearing problem(s), they should not require a "meter" to tell them if one piece of gear's aural performance is less than, equal to, or greater than a comparative piece.
Two amplifiers built from the same schematic, but one using common, cheap parts and a generic stamped steel case and the other using premium parts and a heavy, damped, machined metal case will sound radically different, even though they may measure the same with common electronic measurement tools (Volt-Ohm-meters and oscilloscopes).
Of course, "placebo effect" and "snob appeal" can play a part in perceived differences in audio gear performance...for a particular type of individual (the so-called "carriage trade"). However, if a person is a true audiophile and music lover and not an insecure status seeker, then they relish the idea of getting the best performance for the lowest possible price. For the music lover, the goal is the most realistic reproduction of the musical experience that their funds will allow. For the status seeker, the goal is mere bragging rights. Audio, like every other field of endeavor, has its lunatic fringe; and like every other field of endeavor, there exists a group of unscrupulous vendors waiting to separate fools from their money.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I dont think it matters if someone showed you with graphs, scopes etc that there was a difference you yourself said that you would rather spend the xtra $ on components rather than interconnects speaker wire etc because you dont have the extra money to spend on these items.I have never heard a side by side comparison of any high grade wire as either an interconnect or speaker cable compared to your average products. I buy gold ended patch cords and use oxygen free good grade 10 GA copper speaker wire. I just can't imagine spending the amount of money that some of these wires cost -$22.00 per foot at one site whose link was posted here-nor can I believe there is that big of a difference in the sound in one vs. the other. I subscribed to a high end audio magazine for a few years and it sure seems that there's more snake oil being sold to that market than there was in any traveling circus show in the early 1900s. A little theory and a colorful brochure with graphs and charts seem to justify insane prices for many of these products. I have to believe that there is a strong psychological effect in the sheer cost alone making the buyers believe they are getting something for their money -if it costs alot it must be good- even if its only true value is the opportunity to act like a snob about something the great masses of the unwashed and uniformed are not privvy to. At work I have used a signal generator and my storage oscilloscope to compare signals sent through various sizes and grades of wire and except for wire size, and at some point weak signals through extreme conductor lengths I have never noticed any real differences, degradation, in the signals passed through one material vs. another. Granted, the signals are of a single amplitude and a given frequency and maybe things are different with lots of harmonic content, but still, if some materials are as inferior as some claims I have read say they are I think I would have seen something.... I know some materials are better conductors that others, but unless everything I know is wrong materials like gold and platinum were originally used in circuitry where small voltages and tiny currents were the rule. In these cases high conductivity was extremely important. As with the above cited price for 9 GA silver wire, the way my stereo is set up I would have over $3000.00 in speaker wire alone! Personally, I would buy upgraded components before I would drop that kind of cash on speaker wires. (I'm the same way in the garage. If I have $3000.00 to spend on garagre stuff I'll buy $3000.00 worth of tools before I'll spend $3000.00 on a tool box to hold them in) Now, if I had the kind of disposable income that those who can buy $30,000.00 speakers and $20,000.00 each CD DAC and transport separates have I probably would drop that kind of cash in pursuit of theoretical system perfection. If anybody could point me to unbiased technical information that supports that these ultra expensive wires and interconnects produce audible sonic improvements that are more than subtle manifestations of wishful thinking please share.
Its the same way with amps pre amps etc all we have to go on is other peoples oppinions as to how good they sound or dont sound until we hear them for ourselfs.
I will probablly never buy a top of the line pair of Krell mono blocks myself not because I dont think they sound better than what I currently have its because I cant afford them.
I think the best way to try this for yourself is bring some of your speaker wire and interconnects to a higher end shop that does sell these types of speaker wire and interconnects. ask for a demonstration using what you brought and what they are using and hear for yourself if there is a difference.
You wont be out of pocket hundreds or thousands of dollars and you will get to see if its really true.
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all -
I saw Audio Advisor was having an inter connect sale. I may spring for a moderately priced pair. A few comments that were posted to my comments are worth responding to. To the comment that what happens in the material of high end cables is on the atomic/molecular level and needs special super duper measuring equipment to demonstrate the difference: Exactly. And I don't think the average human ear can tell the difference. All electronic phenomenon come down to current flow. Current is quantifiable. It's all electrons and unless someone has redefined physics, electrons are electrons. A silver atom's electron isn't any different than a copper atom's electron. An atom that has more available electrons in its valence shells has more electrons to give up, but it will only give up what conditions call for. A silver conductor will pass the same amount of current through 1 ohm at 1 volt as will a copper wire as will an aluminum wire. There may be differences in, say, total conductivity of one material vs. another or a temperature co-efficient that is more dramatic in one than another. Another comment had to do with insulation and its effect on audio signals. I remember getting a beautiful, glossy lavishly illustrated brochure for $3500.00 1 meter long interconnects that went on at length about that topic. It claimed that the audio signal does not pass through the conductor at all! Rather, it travels through the insulation itself. Borrowing heavily from high frequency skin effect the manufacturer redefined electronic signal transmission through metal conductors as we know it. Hardly any mention was given at all about the metallic components of the cables, material or otherwise. It was all about the insulation. Even the colors were specially chosen because you had to have a color whose frequency in the light spectrum was far enough removed from the audio spectrum and the associated harmonics to have no cancelling effect on the signal components. (That's why it's harder to hear if you wear a green hat!:D ) The insulation has to be purer and more perfectly formed than a certain long ago failed government's eugenics program was to make their population. It was a magnificent piece of propaganda and proof that a little truth can go a long way. And I bet they sold a lot of wires! Anyway, like I said- I'll buy a pair of interconnects and dig out the old switch box and do some A-B comparison and report back on it. In fact, I might have to dig up a microphone and see if the old 500 MHz storage scope can find some differences in audio output from the speakers.... I'll probably have to repaint the living room first though.;)The Beloved System:
Parasound Halo P3 Preamp
Parasound Halo T3 AM/FM Tuner
Grant Audio Tube Buffer
ADC Sound Shaper II IC Graphic Equalizer
Polk XRT12 XM Satellite Radio Receiver
2 Carver TFM 35x Power Amps
Harmon Kardon T45 Turntable w\ Benz MC 20E Phono Cartridge
Vincent Phono Preamp (not enough gain in the Parasound Phono In)
Cambridge Audio 640C V2 CD Player
Nakamichi BX300 Cassette Deck
Polk RTi 12 Main Speakers
2 Polk PSW 1000 Subwoofers -
I have using diy silver ic for a year now and the bass is great, the top end detailed. I cant use copper any more. Sounds better than ever. LCD Soundsystem sounds great!Main system: Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 w/ Pioneer 42" plazma-> Polk LSiM 703 w/Tivo, Marantz tuner, BRPTT: Nothingham Spacedeck-> Pioneer PL L1000 linear arm-> Soundsmith DL 103R-> SUT->Bottlehead ErosDigital: I3 PC w/ Jriver playing flac -> Sonore Ultrarendu -> Twisted Pair Audio ESS 9028 w/ Mercury IVY Vinyl rips: ESI Juli@24/192-> i3 PC server
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I saw Audio Advisor was having an inter connect sale. I may spring for a moderately priced pair. A few comments that were posted to my comments are worth responding to. To the comment that what happens in the material of high end cables is on the atomic/molecular level and needs special super duper measuring equipment to demonstrate the difference: Exactly. And I don't think the average human ear can tell the difference. All electronic phenomenon come down to current flow. Current is quantifiable. It's all electrons and unless someone has redefined physics, electrons are electrons. A silver atom's electron isn't any different than a copper atom's electron. An atom that has more available electrons in its valence shells has more electrons to give up, but it will only give up what conditions call for. A silver conductor will pass the same amount of current through 1 ohm at 1 volt as will a copper wire as will an aluminum wire. There may be differences in, say, total conductivity of one material vs. another or a temperature co-efficient that is more dramatic in one than another. Another comment had to do with insulation and its effect on audio signals. I remember getting a beautiful, glossy lavishly illustrated brochure for $3500.00 1 meter long interconnects that went on at length about that topic. It claimed that the audio signal does not pass through the conductor at all! Rather, it travels through the insulation itself. Borrowing heavily from high frequency skin effect the manufacturer redefined electronic signal transmission through metal conductors as we know it. Hardly any mention was given at all about the metallic components of the cables, material or otherwise. It was all about the insulation. Even the colors were specially chosen because you had to have a color whose frequency in the light spectrum was far enough removed from the audio spectrum and the associated harmonics to have no cancelling effect on the signal components. (That's why it's harder to hear if you wear a green hat!:D ) The insulation has to be purer and more perfectly formed than a certain long ago failed government's eugenics program was to make their population. It was a magnificent piece of propaganda and proof that a little truth can go a long way. And I bet they sold a lot of wires! Anyway, like I said- I'll buy a pair of interconnects and dig out the old switch box and do some A-B comparison and report back on it. In fact, I might have to dig up a microphone and see if the old 500 MHz storage scope can find some differences in audio output from the speakers.... I'll probably have to repaint the living room first though.;)
Jimmyzen,
I have a relative who is a retired mechanical engineering professor and hi fi buff. He has a great sounding high powered stereo/HT system that I would guess is worth roughly $15-20K (not including video), and he is as incredulous as you are about the impact wire design and materials could possibly have on the sound of his or anybody else's system based on theory. Big copper wires and thick insulation that pass signal should be adequate he says. He has never tested his theory empirically.
I have another relative who is a retired nuclear physicist who made his living designing guidance systems and antenna for military applications, and is an avid musician. He has a crappy stereo but great guitars, amps and recording equipment. His son is getting his PhD in electrical engineering and is also a musician. Both of them think there is probably something to the idea that different conductors arrayed in different configurations and wrapped with different insulators can cause humans to perceive differences in the sound they experience coming out of loudspeakers. They have not tested this belief empirically either.
I have no credentials that would lend weight to my opinion either way other than I am a music lover and strive to put together the best sound system that I can afford. I have tested various wires and various components in various places in my signal path, and I have found that I notice significant differences in how these materials behave and sound.
The most startling difference I noticed was in changing the jumper between the pre and amplifier sections of my modest integrated amplifier from stock metal bars to solid copper wire jumpers (Audioquest, $25), and then to silver braided wire jumpers (custom built by SpeakerLab, $40). I did this when I had an old 1991 top of the line Yamaha CD changer as my sole source, and decided that the silver wires were clearer but too harsh (or bright) with pronounced sibilence, and decided the copper jumpers sounded best. I later upgraded my source to the Cambridge Audio Azur 640c V2, and one day decided to try the silver jumpers again. Oh my god. It was like the first time I put on corrective lenses, I could "see" each leaf on the music tree for the first time, so to speak.
I have had similar but perhaps not as dramatic experiences with upgrades of other ICs, power cords and speaker wires, no other of which are silver in my system by the way because of cost. The lesson I take from the above is that:
a) opinions are like mouths, everybody has one, and highly qualified people can have quite different opinions,
b) you should really try something for yourself before you pooh pooh it (somebody above had a great suggestion of testing various wires on the stereo store's time and nickel)
c) I have found that better wires can reveal or be masked by weaknesses in your equipment chain, and you can reach a point of diminishing returns on wire investments - but also that even relatively low cost but well designed and built hi fi gear can benefit from better wires IMHO.
I am thinking of having a wire testing "party" at my skeptical relatives house to set up blind tests of different wire types in different places in the equipment chain. Challenges include setting up a switching system that is high quality and completely neutral that allows quick transitions between wire types and keeps all wire warm with signal while they are "offline" during the test.
Keep an open mind and listen to see if you can hear a difference. You might find yourself including wires in your overall hi fi budget, I know I have. kn -
If you think silver sounds bright, wait till you hear chrome cables, they are really bright.
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If you think silver sounds bright, wait till you hear chrome cables, they are really bright.
I understand uranium dosed wires really add some "sparkle" to your system. These are readily available on the black market or on the street in Nigeria, but you have to know the "right people". It is claimed that Scooter Libby uses these and swears by them. -
Ok well I got the new interconnects in today and hooked them up and my first impression is that the highs and mids are far better than with the older ones. The highs seem more airy?I have to admit that I also have read countless times that silver is brighter sounding than copper is. I bought a pair of silver interconnects the other day from a polkie here and am looking forward to trying them and posting my impressions regarding the brightness or lack of such. I plan on first trying them between my combi player direct to my amp, this should give me the best chance of hearing them as uncolored as is possible. I will post here again when they arrive and I have listened to them.
REGARDS SNOW
The mids are much more detailed. The bass seemed tighter faster more controlled. I dont really think they sound brighter than before, only more open, and some information that I wasnt hearing before is now very apparent.
For instance on track #11 of Celine Dions All The Way A Decade Of Song SACD album. the backup singers that I never noticed before on this track became very apparent. I had never heard them before. it was like a veil had been removed.
I then put the old interconnects back to make certain that this was the case and yes they dissapeared.
Truly amazing the difference!!!!
And EarlyB if you have any more of these that you wish to part with please dont bother with the flea market PM me directly lol
REGARDS SNOWWell, I just pulled off the impossible by doing a double-blind comparison all by myself, purely by virtue of the fact that I completely and stupidly forgot what I did last. I guess that getting old does have its advantages after all -
Ok well I got the new interconnects in today and hooked them up and my first impression is that the highs and mids are far better than with the older ones. The highs seem more airy?
The mids are much more detailed. The bass seemed tighter faster more controlled. I dont really think they sound brighter than before, only more open, and some information that I wasnt hearing before is now very apparent.
For instance on track #11 of Celine Dions All The Way A Decade Of Song SACD album. the backup singers that I never noticed before on this track became very apparent. I had never heard them before. it was like a veil had been removed.
I then put the old interconnects back to make certain that this was the case and yes they dissapeared.
Truly amazing the difference!!!!
And EarlyB if you have any more of these that you wish to part with please dont bother with the flea market PM me directly lol
REGARDS SNOW
This is how I would describe the best solid copper conductor interconnects I have tried compared to more run of the mill ICs, and is exactly the experience I had with the silver jumpers I installed on my amp compared to the stock bars and copper jumpers. Why two inches of silver wire had such a dramatic effect in a system loaded throughout with copper (in the CDP, ICs, integrated amp, speaker wires, speakers), I have no idea. My son noticed the difference too and I didn't tell him I made any physical changes to the system. Makes me think an all silver wired system from start to finish would be a good thing. kn
