HD-DVD strikes back

MikeC78

PhantomOG wrote: »

Because of this, the adoption rate by both consumers and movie studios is slower, causing prices to remain higher, which in turn causes slower sales.

You think this is something the consumers would jump right into?

Actually, this format war has caused prices of players to go down and the quality of software arise.

Remember when the players first came out? A BD stand alone was $1000-1500 a player and the Toshiba was sub 1K. For example, now you can purchase a Toshiba for little over $200, and the Panny for under $600.

MikeC78

PhantomOG wrote: »

Yep, I'm a big time loser because I'm not rushing out there and spending $1000+ on two different players just so I can watch a handful of titles, most of which I don't really care for anyways. Yep, I'm *really* stupid because I'll be able to buy the same players for considerably less money with more titles to choose from in a year. :rolleyes:

I actually find this pretty humorous.

This is an audio forum where people will spend thousands of dollars for really miniscule changes in sound. Now is someone was to go out and and get the best picture and sound available for under 1K, now this is stupid?

I guess to each their own...

PhantomOG

MikeC78 wrote: »

You think this is something the consumers would jump right into?

Yep, alot more than with 2 competing formats. Regardless of your personal "loser" attitude about it, there are consumers out there that don't want to be left holding the bag if and when one format loses out. You can't just dismiss the consumers who are waiting. Plus, studios would be relasing more titles, and you wouldn't see all this silliness with studios/directors bickering over standards. Each studio would just be rushing to release as many new/old titles as possible.

MikeC78 wrote: »

Actually, this format war has caused prices of players to go down and the quality of software arise.

And you think this wouldn't have been a more dramatic drop in prices if ALL manufacturers were jumping in and making/selling players and competing for a unified market? Manufacturers are being "losers" as well, because they don't want to waste money building up factory lines for a possibly obsolete player.

I understand you are happy with your HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player. That's great. But it really makes no sense to say that a unified format wouldn't have been better for the industry as a whole, including the consumers.

BIZILL

MikeC78 wrote: »

I love the wireless ability of the PS3, works like a charm.

i was up till fuggin' 3 am last night trying to get that **** hooked up to my wireless. everything else works like a charm on my set-up. gave up and used my xbox adapter to download new firmware update to ps3 to get me to 1.90. will try again tonight...

jdhdiggs

PhantomOG wrote: »

And you think this wouldn't have been a more dramatic drop in prices if ALL manufacturers were jumping in and making/selling players and competing for a unified market? Manufacturers are being "losers" as well, because they don't want to waste money building up factory lines for a possibly obsolete player.

Actually, competing formats would drive the quality and price quicker. With one format, no one can "lose", you might just not win. With two formats you need to ensure you "win" or go the way of mini-disk and betamax.

PhantomOG

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Actually, competing formats would drive the quality and price quicker. With one format, no one can "lose", you might just not win. With two formats you need to ensure you "win" or go the way of mini-disk and betamax.

With one format, more than just Sony and Toshiba would be serious competitors in the market for players. There are lots of other manufacturers out there that haven't or just now have decided on a format to support. With more competition in the player market prices would go lower more quickly.

cheddar

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Actually, competing formats would drive the quality and price quicker. With one format, no one can "lose", you might just not win. With two formats you need to ensure you "win" or go the way of mini-disk and betamax.

While I agree with you concerning prices for toshiba and sony products, I think Phantom may have a point if more manufacturers entered into competition with a unified format. More manufacturers and more models would help drive prices down too. Maybe we would even have a music only lossless format by now...:D.

Edit: Dang, phantom beat me to the point...

jdhdiggs

I really don't agree. There is no real motivation to push the cost down. They would be able to keep they're high margins for years instead of bringing costs down quickly. Look at the HDTV market. It has taken 7+ years to get to the prices today and the next gen DVD has already seen nearly the same percentage drop in costs with a similar increase in quality.

Anyway, no one could ever prove either position so who gives a crap. Now, one just needs to "win" since the benchmarks have been set.

PhantomOG

jdhdiggs wrote: »

I really don't agree. There is no real motivation to push the cost down. They would be able to keep they're high margins for years instead of bringing costs down quickly. Look at the HDTV market. It has taken 7+ years to get to the prices today and the next gen DVD has already seen nearly the same percentage drop in costs with a similar increase in quality.

HDTV is a competely different can of worms because of the millions of dollars each network has to invest in new equipment, bandwidth issues with cable/sat providers, and government regulation of broadcasting standards. You have a chicken-egg situation where networks won't invest because no one has HDTV's and no one buying HDTV's because no networks broadcast in HD.

More competition means lower prices. Right now there is amost no competition for players. Sony and Toshiba. That's it. With a unified format there would be more manufacturers competing for a larger market which would lower prices.

cheddar

jdhdiggs wrote: »

I really don't agree. There is no real motivation to push the cost down. They would be able to keep they're high margins for years instead of bringing costs down quickly. Look at the HDTV market. It has taken 7+ years to get to the prices today and the next gen DVD has already seen nearly the same percentage drop in costs with a similar increase in quality.

Anyway, no one could ever prove either position so who gives a crap. Now, one just needs to "win" since the benchmarks have been set.

Actually, the main driver for HDTVs was probably all those huge next generation flat panel fabs they had to initially build to produce the largest sizes. It took only a year or two after that for prices to drop. But you're right, the prices are low now, so consumers would almost certainly benefit if companies didn't try and prolong the war from here on out.

BIZILL

BIZILL wrote: »

i was up till fuggin' 3 am last night trying to get that **** hooked up to my wireless. everything else works like a charm on my set-up. gave up and used my xbox adapter to download new firmware update to ps3 to get me to 1.90. will try again tonight...

well, last night after watching my first blu-ray, i went to hook up my ps3 to my wireless and it connected perfectly. 1.90 firmware update did the trick. i much prefer this as my media hub over my 360. but the 360 remains the king as far as games and hd dvd. i also much prefer the 360 controllers over the ps3.

jdhdiggs

POG: By your logic, the players should still be in the >$1K range and they aren't. Yes, other companies are waiting for one to win but the ones with skin in the game are playing for keeps. You mean to tell me that Toshiba is really selling their products at an artificially high price? When you can find their player for the same price as the Oppo? You think if the had one format that prices for a decent player would be in the $100 range? Not a chance.

It's the same thing as HDTV's: Instead of network broadcasters, it's the studios that have to fight through it all.

Chedder: That is definately not the case with the DLP and D-ILA based TV's

PhantomOG

jdhdiggs wrote: »

POG: By your logic, the players should still be in the >$1K range and they aren't. Yes, other companies are waiting for one to win but the ones with skin in the game are playing for keeps. You mean to tell me that Toshiba is really selling their products at an artificially high price? When you can find their player for the same price as the Oppo? You think if the had one format that prices for a decent player would be in the $100 range? Not a chance.

By your own logic more competition means lower prices. If you accept that having two competing formats means less manufacturers making competing players, its not hard to assume that having a unified format would mean more players in the marketplace with prices dropping lower and sooner. I made no comment about players in the $1k range.

I really do fail to see how one could argue that one unified format would mean higher prices and slower adoption rate than what we have now with two formats. That just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Competition of products of the same format lowers prices. Competition of formats does not work that way. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many industry standards for everything. Proprietary sucks and means higher prices.

cheddar

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Chedder: That is definately not the case with the DLP and D-ILA based TV's

A major reason DLP rear projection tvs have always been cheaper, no? The plain and simple fact is that capital projects like the large format LCD factories came online in 2005 IIRC. And since that year, we've seen a continual fall in prices to the much lower levels we see today. All without a format war with incompatible technologies. Competition has always worked to lower prices in a market economy. Sure, Sony and Toshiba products are priced below market and are a great deal. But Toshiba remains the only manufacturer of inexpensive hd-dvd dedicated hardware. And other blu-ray players remain higher than sony. AND the lower prices for this technology still haven't made more than a few hundred thousand dedicated players of either format in overall sales. If not for the hd-dvd add-on and the ps3, we might be looking at format stillbirth for both sides. That's just not healthy for any industry trying to achieve an economy of scale.

BIZILL

PhantomOG wrote: »

Competition of formats does not work that way. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many industry standards for everything.

dunno...i've been watching it happen right before my very own eyeballs.;)

PhantomOG

BIZILL wrote: »

dunno...i've been watching it happen right before my very own eyeballs.;)

You may be impressed with the current state of affairs for high definition DVD but I'm not. You put anything on the shelf for long enough and the price will go down. If more than just Sony and Toshiba were seriously making high definition dvd players, prices would be lower than they are currently. The only reason more manufacturers haven't jumped in, is because of the uncertainty of formats. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

With that said, what we have is what we have. I'm not saying people shouldn't buy what's out there. I'm just saying things would be better for everyone involved (consumers and the manufacturers) if a single format was agreed upon years ago. I thought that was pretty much understood and accepted but it seems like people think more formats the better. What if there were four competing formats? About 1/4 of the studios choosing each one. Would everyone still be happy buying 4 $500 players?

krabby5

BIZILL wrote: »

well, last night after watching my first blu-ray, i went to hook up my ps3 to my wireless and it connected perfectly. 1.90 firmware update did the trick. i much prefer this as my media hub over my 360. but the 360 remains the king as far as games and hd dvd. i also much prefer the 360 controllers over the ps3.

what does the PS3 do that the 360 can't as far as a media hub?

I don't have a PS3, so I don't know...

AndyGwis

Just FYI, I don't know if it's because of the Paramount news or just some stars aligning. . .

but I have purchased like 6 HD-DVDs from Amazon this week and just signed up with NetFlix (which has a sick selection of HD-DVD movies with many more coming in the near future). I should also be getting my second 5 free HD-DVD movies soon via the Toshiba rebate. I'll soon have around 25 HD-DVD movies with unlimited more to rent via Netflix.

If this is what a format war is like, LONG LIVE THE WAR!!! I'm a happy camper with my HD-DVD players and their "limited" titles.

AndyGwis

One question for HD-DVD / BR owners. . . where the hell do they sell racks that fit these new boxes?

Mine look like hell in my rack, and they are starting to pile up. would love to have both a SD and a HD-DVD rack on either side of my audio stand for my bedroom setup. I can put all the rest on the shelving in my living room.

cheddar

krabby5 wrote: »

what does the PS3 do that the 360 can't as far as a media hub?

I don't have a PS3, so I don't know...

Good question. What does the 360 do? I've never tried to configure mine as a media server.

But the 360 is definitely more inconsistent. Some have hard drives, some don't. No included wireless. Some have hdmi, some don't. Some configurations don't work with 1080p as well, etc.

I prefer to keep all my media on the hard drive. So the ability to upgrade the ps3 easily to a 200GB SATA laptop drive was a real plus.

But I think both are compliant with streaming media from a PC.

Look for 1080p tuner and dvr capabilities from the ps3 in 2008, though.

BIZILL

krabby5 wrote: »

what does the PS3 do that the 360 can't as far as a media hub?

I don't have a PS3, so I don't know...

well, i've never set my 360 to pcm, not even sure you can. but i set the ps3 to output pcm over optical and now my receiver accepts it as pcm vs the 360's dolby digital only signal and can now apply ALL of my receiver's soundfields, (including h/k's 'logic7') and music now sounds 'better' to me playing through all 7.1 speakers instead of just stereo with the occasional application of the center channel. also, with the music player in the ps3 you can ff, reverse, song advance and other nice touches that ANY media player should offer. the 360 lacks all of those, as of now.

360's ability to view pics on my pc sort of sucks. no zoom. with the ps3, i can view pics and zoom in on them and then pan around the zoomed image. very fluid-like.

the only thing the ps3 needs is a GOOD remote control that is BACKLIT like the 360.

edit: oh, yeah, and the ps3 has a web browser that is better than having nothing at all.

BIZILL

cheddar wrote: »

Look for 1080p tuner and dvr capabilities from the ps3 in 2008, though.

from what i've read thus far, not anytime soon. it's slated for release overseas, but not the U.S.
http://www.eetimes.eu/france/201802155?cid=RSSfeed_eetimesEU_france

wow, we really got this thread and jacked it all to hell. oh well. carry on...

BIZILL

and keeping within my own status quo i have to say, I STILL HATE SONY.:D

cheddar

And the ps3 also plays sacds...pretty well from the reviews I've read over at AVS.

sbpolk

I bought my PS3 60gb NIB for about $400. I then bought a used, current firmware HD-A1 for less than $140 shipped. I am in High Definition bliss right now. I have never had a single freeze up or glitch with my Tosh, and the PS3 is phenominal. I got the NYKO BluWave remote for the PS3, which allows me to control my PS3 with my Harmony remote. My only PS3 gripe is the heat, which in my dedicated second floor theater, is a real challenge.

My pre/pro is not HDMI 1.1/1.3 compliant, so I can't get lossless sound from my PS3 right now. The Tosh is hooked up via analogues, and it sounds fantastic. Because of that right now, when I have both formats available in a movie, I am renting HDDVD for the better sound. By this winter, I hope to have a 1.3 HDMI pre, so it will make my decisions harder again.

I have my music on the PS3, and use it occasionally for surfing the net too. I only have a few games, but my 5 year old LOVES motorstorm on the 120" screen!

I don't have a problem saying that I love having both formats in my theater. Yes, I wish there was one format for simplicity's sake, but cost of entry isn't keeping me from enjoying these emerging formats.

I kinda tilt Blu, and I guess I have from just about the beginning. At first, I thought HDDVD would win in a landslide right after the release, then it looked like momentum was going to Blu, and now with Paramounts move..... I don't think this will be resolved within the next couple of years, and I just don't want to sit on the sidelines, missing out on HD and lossless (or near lossless) sound.

hockeyboy

Is there really a reason both formats cannot survive a long time? The new standard will be for manufacturers to make players that are multi functional. Upscaling old format, Blu Ray, and HD. Everyone just needs guns that fire both kind of bullets, and nobody cares what kind of round goes in the chamber.

cheddar

hockeyboy wrote: »

Is there really a reason both formats cannot survive a long time? The new standard will be for manufacturers to make players that are multi functional. Upscaling old format, Blu Ray, and HD. Everyone just needs guns that fire both kind of bullets, and nobody cares what kind of round goes in the chamber.

Slower adoption of both formats leading to the risk of an sacd dvd-a type standoff where most people don't adopt either. Then downloads start taking off and we'll have the iTuning of the whole movie distribution industry. iTunes is a great business, but it didn't exactly do much to promote the quality of audio you can get on the high-def disks. It would be a shame if the same thing happened to hd-video.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB118763006171303081-lMyQjAxMDE3ODI3MDYyMzAwWj.html

Adams Media Research, a Carmel, Calif., consultancy, projects 409,000 households will have HD DVD players by year end, compared with 298,000 Blu-ray households. Those figures don't include game players that also play high-definition movies.

Not exactly the strongest projected showing for hardware sales after two full Christmas seasons considering there are millions of hdtvs out there. The low player prices seem to be benefitting mainly the early adopters while the general public seems to be sitting the war out so far.

WilliamM2

Slower adoption of both formats leading to the risk of an sacd dvd-a type standoff where most people don't adopt either. Then downloads start taking off and we'll have the iTuning of the whole movie distribution industry.

This is right on. Most consumers (including me) don't buy movies, they rent them. There are very few movies that I think are worth watching twice.

And renting does seem to be going the download route.

Most the people I know, think that paying more than $49 (or less) at Walmart for a DVD player is too much money. I think both formats will either remain a niche market, or fail, unless we see cheap players, and cheap rentals.

hockeyboy

After thinking about Cheddars response I might suggest that we are only a few years away from actually having an i-server in our media room. The server might wirelessly download HD movies for rent from itunes (or Netflix through a sharing agreement). For an additional fee, you could buy the movie permanently, and keep it on your server or burn it from your HD DVD burner.

cheddar

hockeyboy wrote: »

After thinking about Cheddars response I might suggest that we are only a few years away from actually having an i-server in our media room. The server might wirelessly download HD movies for rent from itunes (or Netflix through a sharing agreement). For an additional fee, you could buy the movie permanently, and keep it on your server or burn it from your HD DVD burner.

The prototypes for this already exist. Microsoft and Sony both have already started this or plan to shortly through the xbox 360 and ps3 online stores. So what may seem like a clear war between blu-ray and hd-dvd might actually have a stealthy little subgroup of companies that see downloads as the future and would love to see both formats eventually sidelined for an itunes like profitability in movie downloads. Certainly, if say dvd-a was the only next gen music format at launch and it ended up replacing the cd, we might be looking at a much different marketplace today, especially in its support for audiophiles. All imho, of course...