interesting cable article

JimBRICK

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html


thought this was interesting

Gaara

every article I read that has speaker wire in it comes to the same conclusion, multiple thinner solid core conductors are better then a thicker solid core conductor or stranded core conductor.

I guess that is why Cat5 is so popular, as well as designs like Kimber 8TC or VH Audio's Chela.

mrbigbluelight

JimBRICK wrote: »

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

"True "Litzendraht" (Litz-wire) is braided similar to Kimber Cable and was originally invented by Nicola Tesla WAY BACK in time."

Yes ..... Tesla.......

.....this concludes today's sermon.

ben62670

I have 12ga cables with tons of very fine strands in them, and I have some with 4 solid connectors in them. The solids are better in every aspect. The same holds true for my IC's. 3 solid silver conductors. The millions of fine strands is old school thinking. It does have its place though. I use it for my subs.

You don't have to have ESP to see where this one will go:rolleyes:

VR3

I think cable post of any kind should be banned from the forum.

"You don't have to have ESP to see where this one will go"

Gaara

Ben...we seem to be eying all the same threads recently. Do you mean 12 gauge stranded core, or wire that has a ton of individually insulated wires that effectively make it 12 gauge?

Most of these studies seem to point to lots of individual wires that are each insulated with their own dielectric as being superior to standard solid core or stranded core wires.

ben62670

For bass regular 12ga monster style works fine. For full range I would NOT use said wire. I have not tried the DIY style individually insulated 24ga braid with say a 12ga equivalency. You do have my little wheels turning faster. I have a fair amount of 22ga solid silver wire with Teflon insulation that I may make some wires with. One thing I have noticed when researching is that a lot of comments have come up about capacitance with the DIY cat5 wires causing problems with amps. I really don't understand how a 12ga wire could cause a problem, but if the capacitance is off enough to mess with an amp I would question the ability to pass higher frequencies to the tweeters.


Any DIYers out there build a cat5 speaker wire?

jm1

I built a UBYTE-2 cable and it was better than standard stranded cable. I have since moved on to Harmonic Technology cable (Pro-11) which consists of individually insulated OCC copper conductors. As good as the UBYTE-2 cable was, the HT cable was better.

I am now starting to look at Nordost cables (Frey or Heimdall, possibly TRY or Valkyrja) for a possible future move. I was also told that Nordost's main business is within the medical industry; audio cables are only a small side interest.

markmarc

Interesting that the copyright is 1998. An update would be fascinating.

ben62670

jm1 wrote: »

I built a UBYTE-2 cable and it was better than standard stranded cable. I have since moved on to Harmonic Technology cable (Pro-11) which consists of individually insulated OCC copper conductors. As good as the UBYTE-2 cable was, the HT cable was better.

I am now starting to look at Nordost cables (Frey or Heimdall, possibly TRY or Valkyrja) for a possible future move. I was also told that Nordost's main business is within the medical industry; audio cables are only a small side interest.

Pssst... cables don't make a difference

treitz3

hehe

dorokusai

A recent member joined the forum with alot of bravado about the TNT Audio site. He was eventually banned for misconduct not his opinion.

The TNT site is a good resource for an opinion. It's every bit as useful as Roger Russell or Audioholics. These sites are basically anti-cable and if you haven't at least read them, you're shortsighted.

I believe in cables to a point, the point of diminishing returns. Once you get to a certain level, whatever that may be and you don't find an obvious....OBVIOUS improvement, you've found that level. When you start using words like micro-dynamics, you're living on Mars. I'm a Neanderthal Audiophile. I know the basics, what sounds good, and what's just hogwash.

I love to read about how folks experience an improvement in this or that, in EVERYTHING they purchase. It's simply not possible. If you've actually spent some time in the trenches, not the credit card trenches....not everything works and not everything is a winner.

You should decide what sounds good to you, not this forum and certainly not me. I don't care much about opinion, I figure that out for myself.

cfrizz

Great post Mark! Sounds like a common sense approach to me!!!:D

Gaara

ben62670 wrote: »

For bass regular 12ga monster style works fine. For full range I would NOT use said wire. I have not tried the DIY style individually insulated 24ga braid with say a 12ga equivalency. You do have my little wheels turning faster. I have a fair amount of 22ga solid silver wire with Teflon insulation that I may make some wires with. One thing I have noticed when researching is that a lot of comments have come up about capacitance with the DIY cat5 wires causing problems with amps. I really don't understand how a 12ga wire could cause a problem, but if the capacitance is off enough to mess with an amp I would question the ability to pass higher frequencies to the tweeters.


Any DIYers out there build a cat5 speaker wire?

Raises hand...ME! I have built a few Cat5 cables in my day and used a modified VenHaus Design up until a few days ago in my main rig. In my PC rig I use the Audioholics V1 mainly because I got lazy and the Venhaus design takes a very long time. I currently use VH Audio Chela, which is 24 pairs of 24 gauge ultra pure copper wire with their own custom dielectric with very low absorption and custom litz braid.

As for capacitance, you mixed up the specs, high inductance causes high frequency roll off. Cat 5 is a very low inductance design, which is one of it's major benefits. Capacitance is, to my understanding, a spec which doesn't affect sonics but can cause amps to oscillate. It is recommended that with any Cat5 design you do not use long runs, speakers that are not a difficult load, and a amp that is stable with high capacitance load.

ben62670

Gaara wrote: »

Raises hand...ME! I have built a few Cat5 cables in my day and used a modified VenHaus Design up until a few days ago in my main rig. In my PC rig I use the Audioholics V1 mainly because I got lazy and the Venhaus design takes a very long time. I currently use VH Audio Chela, which is 24 pairs of 24 gauge ultra pure copper wire with their own custom dielectric with very low absorption and custom litz braid.

As for capacitance, you mixed up the specs, high inductance causes high frequency roll off. Cat 5 is a very low inductance design, which is one of it's major benefits. Capacitance is, to my understanding, a spec which doesn't affect sonics but can cause amps to oscillate. It is recommended that with any Cat5 design you do not use long runs, speakers that are not a difficult load, and a amp that is stable with high capacitance load.

And... What do you think of the cables compared to...
Thanks G

madmax

I like the way litz wire sounds.
madmax

jm1

ben62670 wrote: »

Pssst... cables don't make a difference

Sorry, I will try to be more discrete in the future.

steveinaz

I'm in the same camp as Mark. Sure, I want good cables, but I'm not going crazy with it---though sometimes I think I need my head examined for buying the Kimber Hero's; not that they don't deliver, they're just more money than I would usually spend on cables.

It's all in the "core" system. If you need $500 IC cables to make your system sound good---somethins' wrong.

madmax

steveinaz wrote: »

It's all in the "core" system. If you need $500 IC cables to make your system sound good---somethins' wrong.

Could we please raise that value to $680 so I can sleep at night.

steveinaz

LOL...sorry man.

jdhdiggs

Mark: Absolutely perfect reponse, it was sort of what I was trying to get across in the other thread but you managed it without being as confrontational. Kudo's!

In the end, the only thing that matters is if you are happy with your purchase and that it furthers your journey.

madmax

I have actually heard microdynamics.
madmax

jdhdiggs

Nm..

carpenter

It might be the newby in me, but shouldn't cables first and foremost look good??? by that standard DYI cut 5 are tops.

May be instead of the tired all "Does cable matter" debate (Yawn) somebody should start a cables beauty pageant thread?

Gaara

ben62670 wrote: »

And... What do you think of the cables compared to...
Thanks G

I have tried some monster wire, XP wire, XPHP, and M something pre assembled. Before the Cat5 I used Canare 4S11 which I still think is great bang for your buck wire.

Overall the Cat5 was a improvement, but not huge. I noticed slight improvements with the highs and everything seemed more spacious...but overall the difference was not big. Everything seemed to take a slight step up but it was not anywhere near changing a component, but I think the difference was there.

Going from Cat5 to VH Audio Chela was another jump up, this time a little larger, but I also used better connectors (Kimber v Vampire Wire). Soundstage seemed to improve, there was more depth definitely and width may have been better to. Bass seems more defined with the Chela wire, it was more immediate and seemed a slight bit more impactful. Again not a huge step up but there was a little noticeable difference.

madmax

In speaker wire I had audioquest type IV which is a solid conductor, then MIT S1's which is multiconductor with a matching network then signal cable bi-wire. The MIT's really sounded much better than either of the other two.
madmax

heiney9

I'm going to throw this article out there as well. Take it FWIW. It's quite dated but the basic principles apply today as well. It gets a bit technical but I haven't read this article in years and stumbled across it again recently.

I found it to be very informative especially the paragraph on oxidation and termination.

Again this is just one more article of info that should be used in evaluating your own personal POV. The article never really takes a stance one way or the other just presents some interesting facts.

Actually all the articles are great sources of info. Scroll down to the speaker cable article

http://www.passlabs.com/articles.htm

H9

reeltrouble1

dorokusai wrote: »

I love to read about how folks experience an improvement in this or that, in EVERYTHING they purchase. It's simply not possible. If you've actually spent some time in the trenches, not the credit card trenches....not everything works and not everything is a winner.

Agreed, I am certainly not a stranger to the dissapointment of something not being what I had hoped it might be.

RT1

madmax

dorokusai wrote: »

I love to read about how folks experience an improvement in this or that, in EVERYTHING they purchase. It's simply not possible. If you've actually spent some time in the trenches, not the credit card trenches....not everything works and not everything is a winner.

I've had my share of disappointments for sure. When I got my first turntable/cart/preamp I had the price of a new economy car in it. Didn't sound very good... Too late to stop at that point.
madmax

dorokusai

In a strange way its what doesn't work that makes this so much fun sometimes.

burdette

So... how many Cat-5 cables are you supposed to run in parallel to get to what is a 'reasonable' speaker wire? (ha ha.. 'reasonable'.. in a thread about cables... ) There are 4 twisted pair, per, correct?

I read that one guy's DIY article. Too much for me. How many sets of twisted-pair from Cat-5 would you put together for each side of a speaker run to get "better" wire than traditional 14g twisted copper?

Just curious. I'm not a big believer in super expensive cabling.. but I did buy upgraded interconnects, sub cable, etc. I happen to have a couple of runs of Cat-5 that are just sitting doing nothing. But if I don't have enough to make it worth it, I won't bother.

Thanks.