Dual Subs vs. Full Range??

Early B.

Let's say your budget for 2-channel speakers is $3,000. You have the option of going with a nice pair bookshelf speakers and stereo subs or some kick **** floorstanders that dig deeper than doo doo. Which option would you choose and why?

And before you ask, the answer is "no." I'm not thinking of "upgrading" or anything like that. I'm just curious because I haven't heard stereo subs yet and was wondering what the differences would be vs. mid-20's hertz floorstanders.

Thanks.

tonyb

Duel subs will cost a pretty penny,good ones anyway.I guess it would boil down to what you listen to more,movies or music.I went from an SRT system to those kick **** floorstanders and could not be happier.I may get a sub down the line for that last bit of bottom end that only a sub can give you,but I really don't miss it much.Only on movies with big bangs in 'em.
3 g's would be my budget for one sub alone.

Early B.

This question is about 2-channel only -- no movies.

tonyb

Then for 2-channel...all bets go for the floorstanders over the subs.

VR3

Before it is over...

I plan to probally get dual VMPS Largers, a Crown XTi4000, and my Paradigm crossover...

With the abilities of the Crown, I would theoretically be able to dial them both in perfectly!

And when I get into HT - add a dual 12" SVS and cross it at like 30hz and let it handle 16hz-30hz for movies!

That woule be my ideal setup.

I will say this, with a perfectly dialed in subwoofer -- you cant place it, however its hard to truly place sounds on the left when the sub is on the right in the right spot....

For right now... one larger will do.

I am a firm believer in getting mains that have no woofers of any kind. I'd take 10 midbasses and a tweet over 2 tweets and 3 woofers anyday of the year.

AndyGwis

Floorstanders. I don't know what kind of Frankensystem Sid is talking about. I'd be happy with his floorstanders alone for 2-channel, wouldn't hardly think about adding two VMPS crazy large-larger subs, much less an extra SVS. . . but, that's just me.

I am happy with my Thiel's depth for music, and they only go down to mid-40's. . . maybe

Anyway, floorstanders alone would get my vote. Better looks, likely cheaper, more convenient, instand synergy.

VR3

If I was going no sub...

The Tyler Acoustics Super Towers is the route I would go...

But I like having a subwoofer setup properly in a system, nothing can truly replace displacement for anything...

VR3

FWIW...

It would hardly be a franken system...

For music you would have right and left subwoofers... flat from 100 to 30hz.... cross them over around 30hz...

In a larger room you would position the stereo subs around their tower counterparts for the perfect blend and position the LFE (30hz and below) in the middle and let it pick up below 30hz...

You would have the best mix of movies and music and not sacrifice anything...

You might be thinking to yourself, well just get two SVS subs and forget the LFE sub...

SVS dosnt have quite the tone and speed of subs from VMPS and other manufactures... hard to explain...

tonyb

Anybody ever tell you Trey,...your wacked dude!!
And I mean that In a very lite hearted way!!:)

VR3

I am crazy as hell I guess!

I have always been a fan of accurate, tight and textured bass...

But I also want alot of slam for HT and I just have not found it.

And I am very confident in saying that anyone that says the only way to have accurate bass is to have full range towers just does not know how to integrate a subwoofer.

Dennis Gardner

An IB sub with 4-15s or 8-12s crossed @50-60hz with towers would be my choice. Nothing can compete with an IB sub for speed and finesse for music. If you can't go IB.....forget the bass-in-a-box type and just go full range.

tonyb

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

I am crazy as hell I guess!

I have always been a fan of accurate, tight and textured bass...

But I also want alot of slam for HT and I just have not found it.

And I am very confident in saying that anyone that says the only way to have accurate bass is to have full range towers just does not know how to integrate a subwoofer.

Though it's not the only way,subs are not the be all end all for bass.
There's alot more to it Sid,than just intergration.But lets not go there right now,instead,I want to ask you,2 vmps subs don't give you enough slam??
Like I said....your wacked dude.:D

VR3

Has nothing to do with slam..

But its a matter of having perfect stereo seperation of bass...

Bass is not omnidirectional, its all produced somewhere. I dont care what the experts say. You can definitely tell when bass is reproduced on the left side of my stage, that the sub is on the right.

Has nothing to do with slam, if I got two VMPS subs - I would most likely have them turned to almost no volume to integrate them, but itd sound sweet.

I guess I could of gone with SMALLER VMPS subs -- but that wouldnt be my style!

Early B.

My concern about dual subs is the need for an external crossover. That's another component in the signal path, along with the sub amps, interconnects, and power cords. Then you gotta make sure they're integrated correctly. Seems like a lot of time and money for the lowest octaves which occur infrequently in most forms of music.

Sid -- stereo subs crossed over at 30 Hz? That's ridiculous. BTW -- my friend's Taylo 7U's have all the bass you'd ever need for music, and they sound phenomenal.

engtaz

Floorstanding speakers that can go low, no sub. Sub setup that will meld smoothly with the speakers is hard to do. Seams the each song requires a tweak to the sub. At least with an LP you get a few more songs.

george daniel

Early B. wrote: »

My concern about dual subs is the need for an external crossover. That's another component in the signal path, along with the sub amps, interconnects, and power cords. Then you gotta make sure they're integrated correctly. Seems like a lot of time and money for the lowest octaves which occur infrequently in most forms of music.

Sid -- stereo subs crossed over at 30 Hz? That's ridiculous. BTW -- my friend's Taylo 7U's have all the bass you'd ever need for music, and they sound phenomenal.

+ 1
There is no way in hell that I would entertain the thought of adding a sub to my 2 ch system the 7u's have PLENTY of bass,just my .02 worth

VR3

You are notfollowing me

I have my VMPS crossed over at 80hz for music, it is perfectly flat from 100-25hz for music.

The LFE sub would be crossed over at 30hz. The VMPS would be high passed at 30hz.

With the Crown XTi amps, I can pretty much do any type of settings I want.

I agree the 7u has more than enough bass for most music, but they dont hit low enough for alot of music, all at the same time.

If you get a subwoofer perfectly flat, which mine is basically +/- 2db from 100hz to 25hz --- it really just does whatever the guy mastering the CD wanted me to hear. I have CD's where the bass sounds just right, sometimes theres a little more, a little less. Makes it interesting. But I like knowing I'm getting exactly what they wanted me to hear.

Ben Harper's CD has alot of bass in it.

Early, since you are running passive subs. You owe it to yourself to pick up a Crown XTi amp.

Crossover (high and low pass), EQ, whole nine yards.

heiney9

Crazy, monster, deep digging subs are more or less a waste in a 2 ch rig. Very little music digs much below the 35Hz level, very little. If you are into Virgil Fox and his organ or perhaps stellar versions of some classical pieces floorstanders that go down to around 35-40Hz are more than sufficient for 99% of the music out there. Of course if you have crazy tastes or a special need for the type of music you listen to them perhaps it's not as much of a waste.

H9

engtaz

How low are the canon shots in classical music? I had a brain **** and forgot the name of the music.

Early B.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

You are notfollowing me


Early, since you are running passive subs. You owe it to yourself to pick up a Crown XTi amp.

I don't run passive subs on 2-channel. My VMPS speakers dig down into the low 20's, so there's no need for a sub.

For HT, I use an RBH 200 wpc subwoofer amp. It's sufficient for my needs.

unc2701

Get your ears on some Gallo's for christsake. Fullrange, flat to 22hz, stereo subs. $3k used w/ the sub amp.

VR3

I just like subwoofers. I like to look at subwoofers and integrating them.

Something about having large drivers in a system make me happy!

If I didnt have a subwoofer in my setup, I just would not be happy... - it may sound the same with/without, but I just like looking at my subwoofer!

Keep in mind, I use my setup for movies and music.

I would have no qualms about having 3 massive subs in my setup. And you wouldnt be able to really tell you had so much subbage going on for music either.

But for movies, it will shake your teeth!

One day... I'll have my dream stereo + LFE subwoofer configuration!

SLOCOOKN

I enjoy my VMPS with my 3.1's very much! I can tell the bass is heavy on the left side where the sub is located. At different times I enjoy listening to my rig at very loud volumes. The VMPS is fast enough to keep up. The combination sounds and feels great!

I have been investing in photography equipment lately and decided to for go an upgrade in amplification for now. I feel that filtering out 80 hertz and below....sending that to the Carver allows the Adcom to work easier. I enjoy the sound that I have for now!

jm1

Having become accustomed to full range sound by listening at local dealers (Wilson Maxx and WP speakers), I found speakers within budget to be lacking certain characteristics I came to enjoy.

I found it more cost effective to implement full range sound through a monitor/active crossover/subs system. I prefer this method as I can locate the monitors where they sound best and the subs where they sound best. Integration between the two is more difficult, but if you are capable and persistent, the final presentation is seamless. The difficulty lies in selecting a sub with suitable characteristics. Most subs on the market I would not even use in a HT environment.

Ultimately, either method is capable of producing outstanding results. The difficulty for both is proper implementation to achieve the desired results.

jm1

Here are a couple of articles on the subject:

Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact

Subwoofers for Music

wingnut4772

Just get a pair of von Schweikert VR4 Jrs. They go down to 20Hz

jm1

wingnut4772 wrote: »

Just get a pair of von Schweikert VR4 Jrs. They go down to 20Khz

So they have a low end response of 20kHz and a high end response of 20kHz for a frequency range of 20kHz - 20kHz. :eek:

No thanks, I will stick with the Dynaudio C1 monitors and subs.

Early B.

jm1 wrote: »

Here are a couple of articles on the subject:

Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact

Subwoofers for Music

Excellent articles!!!

I totally agree with this quote:

"Never trust a sales person who says a given subwoofer is equally good for music and movies. Either the person is clueless or the subwoofer is so compromised that it won’t be that good for either one."

wingnut4772

jm1 wrote: »

So they have a low end response of 20kHz and a high end response of 20kHz for a frequency range of 20kHz - 20kHz. :eek:

No thanks, I will stick with the Dynaudio C1 monitors and subs.

I meant 20Hz smarty pants.:p

Early B.

After reading those articles, it seems to me like true full range speakers offer a greater advantage over dual subs due to cost and integration concerns.

Ricardo

I will take a good full range speaker any day over a monitor/sub combination. But that's just me.