Amplifiers, why we need them?

new_audio

Hello all,
Since we pay $500 to thousands for A/V Receiver, some people still pay more to own amplifiers such as Outlaw, Marzand etc. Can someone let me know? I suppose a good receiver and couple good Polk speakers are all we need for music and movie.
Thanks

Gaara

The same reason you paid money for the receiver and speakers to begin with instead of using the TV speakers, better sound quality.

Welcome to the forum, if you would like more detail just ask and one of us will be happy to oblige.

McLoki

An A/V Reciever has a number of compromises built into it for the convienence of having an amplifier, pre-amplifier and tuner built into a single chassis. Many of the compromises end up in the amplifier stage. Many people purchase an external amplifier to minimize the effect of those compromises on their overall system, others do not notice the compromise or just accept it - and run with the AVR alone.

External amplifiers can help with what may be the weak link in your AVR. It is up to you if that is a weak link in your system or even one you care about.

Michael

engtaz

For you to get an AVR with about 200 watts into 8 ohms with ability drive 4 ohm or 2 ohm speakers you would be at around or above a grand. Most speakers are under powered. The 200 watts is not to play it loud but to have audio clarity at any giving volume. Most AVR's don't have the backup current reserves necessary to provide for speaker demands.

Face

In my experience, any A/V receiver I've used in the last few years, the tuner usually is very poor. My McIntosh tuner from the early 70's is 100 times better.

treitz3

To each his own. Some people pay as much for a speaker cable as some do on an entire system.

It depends on where you are in your audio journey and how far you want to go.

new_audio

I have a Sony STR-DG1000 with 120w per channel; however, i have to crank the volume almost to maximum to listen or play a movie (digital coax hook-up). After read some posts from Polk forum, I invest $700 + for an Amp (Outlaw 7075). My disappointment goes higher, and I think it's my fault because 7075 is 75w x 7. I think I have to return this Amp and get a better one. If you know or someone know about Outlaw amps please let me know. I'm thinking about getting the 7125 "125w x 7" or 7500 "200w x 5" your suggestions are greatly appreciated.

cfrizz

Think about this, you bought an amp that has even less power than your 120 wpc. The 125 is only 5 watt more than what you have now. If you want more power, it makes much more sense to buy much more power than what you already have.

So bite the bullet & get the 7500. Your speakers will be happy & so will you! You will keep that amp through all your other upgrades, including speakers!

engtaz

or invest in this and you will have no regret. Sony can run the rear 2 speakers in 7.1.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54864

I wish I has it.

snow

cfrizz wrote: »

Think about this, you bought an amp that has even less power than your 120 wpc. The 125 is only 5 watt more than what you have now. If you want more power, it makes much more sense to buy much more power than what you already have.

So bite the bullet & get the 7500. Your speakers will be happy & so will you! You will keep that amp through all your other upgrades, including speakers!

I have to agree with cathy on this. 200 wpc is kind of where the magic begins and is enough power to drive most speakers easily. not only will it have the ability to drive your speakers to your expectations, but it will sound much better at lower levels as well at higher levels.

There are peaks that occur even at low listening levels and this is where the 200 wpc are needed. Your soundstage will increase, bass will become deeper, all because your amp is not being pushed to its limits. Your amp is the centerpiece of which everything else revolves around. Whether you go digital. vinyl. movies. tuner, a good amp is the heart of it all.

REGARDS SNOW

John K.

New, welcome. From what you describe in your second post, the power rating of the amplifier in your Sony receiver likely has nothing to do with the situation. I use three receivers, each having a slightly lower maximum power rating than yours and any volume setting over about the 3/4ths point would be horrendously loud with typical program material. You don't specifically say what "almost maximum" on your volume setting actually is, but if the volume that you're getting at that point is nevertheless adequate then there's no major cause for concern, so enjoy. If it isn't adequate, the problem isn't an inadequate power rating, it's either inadequate voltage output from your player or other source or inadequate gain in the pre-amplifier section of your receiver which isn't allowing the maximum power of the amplifier to be reached. Both of these are rare possibilities unless the circuits in question have been damaged, since outputs and gain on audio components are typically well-matched.

In any case, the 120 watt amplifier that you now have would be sufficient to give you a maximum sound level over 100dB with most speakers, which would be unbearably loud except for a brief peak. Spending money on more power would be useless, and keep in mind that the loudness increase with more power actually being used is logarithmic, rather than linear. What this means is that an increase in power used from 100 to 200 watts allows for only a 3dB higher maximum sound level on a brief peak(e.g. 108dB instead of 105db). As to the increase from 120 watts to 200 watts that you mentioned, since the formula for dB increase in loudness is 10xlog(P2/P1), you'd have 10xlog(200/120), 10xlog(1.667), and since the log of 1.667 is about 0.222, the increase in maximum level would be a barely noticeable 2.22dB at levels well over 100dB. You wouldn't be hearing any benefit from this; more likely you'd be hearing your wife or parents yelling at you to turn it down.

F1nut

That Sony isn't close to 120wpc in reality, probably closer to 50wpc, all channels driven. The difference between 50wpc and 75wpc isn't going to be noticeable. Although, a dedicated amp should have improved the clarity and perhaps a tad better in the bass response, but for overall loudness, not much, if at all, different than the Sony. So, if what you are after is shear volume, you'll have to get a more powerful amp. Also, keep in mind that for every 3dB increase in volume, it takes double the power.

dorokusai

I think I just stepped into the Twilight Zone.

F1nut

K hits up another newbie. What is it with you and newbies? Is it like hitting a virgin.....he/she doesn't know any better that you suck!?!

One problem with your logic (there's always a problem with your logic) is that his AVR isn't puting out 120wpc.

BTW, 100dB is just warming up around here. If you find it unbearably loud, it's because you don't have enough power and are into clipping.

F1nut

dorokusai wrote: »

I think I just stepped into the Twilight Zone.

Brother, we've been there for some time now.

scottvamp

I am going to test this theory for myself shortly. I am going to run my new Onkyo 130x7 with my Onk M282 running my dual center channels. And sideline my Monster amps. With a push pull amp configuration and relieving center channel amp duties on the receiver it should run pretty well, being that i have RTi's. I would defiantly keep the Monster Amps going if i had LSi's though.

michael_w

The wattage debate is getting so old... You don't need 200wpc to make your speakers sing. IMO, the main reason you should be thinking of upgrading your amp is if you're not happy with the system and want to try a different sound. Every amplifier (and any component for that matter) changes the sound and people purchase separate amplifiers just for that cause. They want to find that perfect blend and mix to get the syenergy their system really needs. Certain components work well together and others clash; it's all part of the process in finding what you like best.

JohnK made a bit of sense at the end of his post about how the extra wattage won't add a great deal of overall spl, but it will help to provide headroom for those really dynamic bits. Maybe it's just me or my small room helping out, but I really don't listen loudly very often. It's pretty rare that I'll push things past 90 / 100 db. I've found 90 to be a good number for my system to rock out at. Do you have a big room to fill? Also, what speakers do you own?

snow

F1nut wrote: »

One problem with your logic (there's always a problem with your logic) is that his AVR isn't puting out 120wpc.

BTW, 100dB is just warming up around here. If you find it unbearably loud, it's because you don't have enough power and are into clipping.

I have to agree with the statement that the sony AVR is not putting out 120 wpc x 7 into all channels driven at the same time.

A lot of times the rating is based on 120 wpc into any (single one) of the 7 channels (peak power) rated at (1khz or something similar.)

The only sony AVRs that may come close to the actual 120 x7 rating rms would be the ES series and im not sure they do either. A good amp or AVR will be rated at whatever its wattages is from 20hz to 20khz all channels driven.

And certainly depending on the room you are in and your listening habits 100db may not be enough. Get into a large room with vaulted ceilings and what used to seem to be plenty of power in a smaller space is not near enough.


REGARDS SNOW

danger boy

Face wrote: »

In my experience, any A/V receiver I've used in the last few years, the tuner usually is very poor. My McIntosh tuner from the early 70's is 100 times better.

agreed.... most AVR tuners are horrible at best.. poor audio quality, poor reception, poor channel seperation, etc.. a stand alone tuner will serve you much better if you enjoy listening to radio/music.

danger boy

dorokusai wrote: »

I think I just stepped into the Twilight Zone.

isn't that a song by Golden Earring?

snow

michael_w wrote: »

The wattage debate is getting so old... You don't need 200wpc to make your speakers sing.

JohnK made a bit of sense at the end of his post about how the extra wattage won't add a great deal of overall spl, but it will help to provide headroom for those really dynamic bits. Maybe it's just me or my small room helping out, but I really don't listen loudly very often. It's pretty rare that I'll push things past 90 / 100 db. I've found 90 to be a good number for my system to rock out at. Do you have a big room to fill? Also, what speakers do you own?

In my oppinion the 200 wpc number is not about making your speakers play louder. Its about making them sound (better) even at very low levels and increased clarity, deeper bass, width and depth of soundstage etc. I know from my own personal experience that once I bought a amp that was 200 wpc the magic happened that I had read about.

Not only was the music less fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time but it sounded so much better. and it didnt happen till then no matter what speakers I tried or combination of amps preamps etc.

Certainly you can make your system sound good with less than 200 wpc but I truly believe your speakers are not realizing there true potential unless you are using a amp with that much power as a rule.

Certainly there are exceptions to this certain class A amps, tube amps, and horn loaded speaker combinations can sound very nice at far less than the 200 wpc number.



REGARDS SNOW

heiney9

Reading John K's posts are always entertaining, but I do feel sorry for the newbs to this forum as he seems to steal their audio "virginity" and they don't even know they are getting it in the wrong orafice (metaphorically speaking).

new_audio, John K is replying strictly from a mathematical POV which has nothing to do with the quality or enjoyment of the music coming from his or anyone else's system. Read my sig.......this is completely the opposite of John K's POV.

H9

cfrizz

Precisely Snow.

This was the biggest pleasant surprise of adding the Parasound 205wpc amp. I didn't know what to expect, but it wasn't that! Before that I had only had a 50wpc Rotel amp & I couldn't tell the difference between that & my 110wpc Denon (Which is what I said I wanted when I bought the Denon.) I had NO idea that my speakers weren't running to thier full potential on the Rotel or the Denon.

I found out differently once I hooked up the Parasound. I was able to go from a minimum volume of -30 & strain to hear it, down to -40 and hear all details as clear as a bell!

That is why I will always recommend 200wpc minimum for tower speakers regardless of whether they are 6,8 or 4ohms!:)

snow wrote: »

In my oppinion the 200 wpc number is not about making your speakers play louder. Its about making them sound (better) even at very low levels and increased clarity, deeper bass, width and depth of soundstage etc. I know from my own personal experience that once I bought a amp that was 200 wpc the magic happened that I had read about.

Not only was the music less fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time but it sounded so much better. and it didnt happen till then no matter what speakers I tried or combination of amps preamps etc.

Certainly you can make your system sound good with less than 200 wpc but I truly believe your speakers are not realizing there true potential unless you are using a amp with that much power as a rule.

Certainly there are exceptions to this certain class A amps, tube amps, and horn loaded speaker combinations can sound very nice at far less than the 200 wpc number.



REGARDS SNOW

Sherardp

Regardless of amp choice, buy an SPL meter and make sure that your setup is calibrated. It will do wonder to your ears.

Systems

Sherardp wrote: »

Regardless of amp choice, buy an SPL meter and make sure that your setup is calibrated. It will do wonder to your ears.

Advice on a good one to buy for HT?

PolkThug

My recommendation to 'new_audio' is to adjust the channel levels in the Sony's setup menu. For starters, try setting the front channels to +5, and notice the difference that it makes on how far you have to turn the volume knob.

PolkThug

heiney9 wrote: »

Read my sig.......this is completely the opposite of John K's POV.

You can add objectiveness to your subjective appreciation without subtracting your subjectiveness. Unless of course, you are a negative person.

AndyGwis

New_Audio -

What speakers are you running, what is your room size, what are you looking for in a system (movies/HT), and what is your budget?

Without knowing most or all of these things, it seems silly that everyone is suggesting spending $1000 + on a 200wpc amplifier. There may be better options to make your system sound the way you want for much cheaper.

new_audio

Thank you pretty much you guys.
I'm just like all of you here. "Polk's fans" I'd owned Polk speakers from R50 to SW-50 and now RT8 for front, Fxi3 for surround, SW-100w "forget series #" and will add csi5 for center soon.
I love music as well as movie. After long day at work, not to mention stress and not so friendly co-workers, all I want is to listen to favorite music and action movie. That's why I don't mind spend extra money for this "afforable entertainment". My uncle said "money spend on this hobby is much cheaper than money spend on drug, gamble" ....
I spoke to Outlaw support tech and he agreed to take my 7075 back and swap 7500; of course I have to pay the different. He also said that the Sony is the real culprit that hold up my volume. Even though I get 7500, I still don't get much different on volume, he said. He suggested that I should get Pre-amp 990. Now, my dear friends: should I dump the Sony and get the better A/V Receivers or the Pre-amp 990? Or I should wait until the 7500 arrives and give the Sony the second chance?

cfrizz

HEH, heh, heh, If you have the money, go for the 990 as well. Otherwise, wait & see if he is correct about the Sony.

Lots of us including me, have a receiver for a preamp. I am constantly debating with myself if I should get a prepro or keep my Denon.

Good luck & keep us posted!

AndyGwis

Of course Outlaw (or any company for that matter) would suggest you purchase the bigger amp and their Pre-Pro. No shock there, just smart business.

But, you may as well try out the bigger amp with the Sony first, then go from there.