What are your thoughts on the NAFTA HWY
Comments
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mrbigbluelight wrote: »I'll start out slow:
I'd expect nothing less from you. (Come on, it was an underhand softball pitch)
I would say that if you only work a 40 hour work week then you probably don't control your own destiny and deserve whatever happens. My slacker weeks are usually 45, and average is closer to 50 with some weeks pushing 80. My wife regularly does 60 hr weeks. I would say that 40 is the bare minimum you should be willing to do.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
I'd expect nothing less from you. (Come on, it was an underhand softball pitch)
I would say that if you only work a 40 hour work week then you probably don't control your own destiny and deserve whatever happens. My slacker weeks are usually 45, and average is closer to 50 with some weeks pushing 80. My wife regularly does 60 hr weeks. I would say that 40 is the bare minimum you should be willing to do.
Oh, I see you're a slacker.
I work 80 hours a week minimum; have for the last 4 years.
The question was: do you think that collectively should the 40 hour work week be abandoned. ?Sal Palooza -
37.5 hour work week is where its at. Work smarter not harder.
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mrbigbluelight wrote: »Oh, I see you're a slacker.
I work 80 hours a week minimum; have for the last 4 years.
The question was: do you think that collectively should the 40 hour work week be abandoned. ?
No name callin' please. I got pi$$ed at phantom yesterday for that so lets not make it personal.
:eek: From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, From the top another down hill slope of mine.:mad: But I know the equilibrium's there!:cool: .."Faith No More"
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No name callin' please. I got pi$$ed at phantom yesterday for that so lets not make it personal.
say what?
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If *ALL* the jobs are going overseas, I'd like to know why so many people at my high tech company (and tons of others) are here on work visas.... sounds like people overseas are far more motivated then people here.
Necessity is the mother of invention. When people in the US wake up to the fact that you absolutely need a complete useful college degree (not basketweaving) to compete in the world ecomony, we'll be better off.
You know why we can't compete for blue collar factory jobs with China and Mexico? Because people in China and Mexico don't expect a factory job which could be done by your average halfwit to pay enough to support a family of five, buy a two-story house, two cars, and a big screen TV. That mentality only exists in the US.
I took this somewhat personal. that is why i did not reply to your comment yesterday. For better or worse. I am over it today though!:eek: From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, From the top another down hill slope of mine.:mad: But I know the equilibrium's there!:cool: .."Faith No More"
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Congrats on working 80 hr weeks. (16hr days, really? Evey week for 4 years? Not counting drive time at lunches? I'll call BS on that) Why though? If you're not pulling down $150K+ a year working that much you REALLY need to follow PT's advice. If you work smart, not hard, it's not hard to pull down $60-$70K/year working 35-40 hour weeks.
40 hr work week? Salaried or hourly? To me, you need to get the job done regardless. If it takes you 20 hours, work 20, if it takes you 50, work 50. Do away with the 40 hour work week from whom? The only people still sticking to that are typically hourly people anyways so it makes no difference.
SLO: My point in all this is that I do have faith that the US can replace the entitlement philosophy and become proactive again in the worlds community. The only question is how long and how hard will we fall before that happens. To me, the answers are "short and soft", push the American people to competition the world market.
You bring up that China and others have unfair advantages, so what? The Germans had better armor, guns, training, aircraft, ships, and pretty much every other advantage over the US in WW2 (beyond raw materials) and yet we fought and found a way to win, why can't that same spirit be found today in this economic war? Why is it all this bitching about being entitled to a job, being owed job security, being owed retirement, etc... Pretty soon you'll hear people whining that the government isn't wiping their **** well enough while our country becomes a third class citizen on the world stage.
Think it can't happen?There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
take it personal or not, but there was no name-calling in my post.
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Congrats on working 80 hr weeks. (16hr days, really? Evey week for 4 years? Not counting drive time at lunches? I'll call BS on that) Why though? If you're not pulling down $150K+ a year working that much you REALLY need to follow PT's advice. If you work smart, not hard, it's not hard to pull down $60-$70K/year working 35-40 hour weeks.
40 hr work week? Salaried or hourly? To me, you need to get the job done regardless. If it takes you 20 hours, work 20, if it takes you 50, work 50. Do away with the 40 hour work week from whom? The only people still sticking to that are typically hourly people anyways so it makes no difference.
SLO: My point in all this is that I do have faith that the US can replace the entitlement philosophy and become proactive again in the worlds community. The only question is how long and how hard will we fall before that happens. To me, the answers are "short and soft", push the American people to competition the world market.
You bring up that China and others have unfair advantages, so what? The Germans had better armor, guns, training, aircraft, ships, and pretty much every other advantage over the US in WW2 (beyond raw materials) and yet we fought and found a way to win, why can't that same spirit be found today in this economic war? Why is it all this bitching about being entitled to a job, being owed job security, being owed retirement, etc... Pretty soon you'll hear people whining that the government isn't wiping their **** well enough while our country becomes a third class citizen on the world stage.
Think it can't happen?
Slave labor is not unfair. Slave labor is reprehensible! The fact that American companies are moving jobs out of the U.S. exploiting these labor camps is terrible and immoral. We fought WW I and WW II against people who committed these kind of atrocities!:eek: From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, From the top another down hill slope of mine.:mad: But I know the equilibrium's there!:cool: .."Faith No More"
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Back to the original topic.
http://www.chadbourne.com/files/Publication/c496910b-15a3-479f-b2d1-7b2e0ac83bda/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/3306d955-e8ef-4618-bce2-8b70fd514217/TollRoadUpdateMarch2007.p:eek: From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, From the top another down hill slope of mine.:mad: But I know the equilibrium's there!:cool: .."Faith No More"
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Necessity is the mother of invention. When people in the US wake up to the fact that you absolutely need a complete useful college degree (not basketweaving) to compete in the world ecomony, we'll be better off.
You know why we can't compete for blue collar factory jobs with China and Mexico? Because people in China and Mexico don't expect a factory job which could be done by your average halfwit to pay enough to support a family of five, buy a two-story house, two cars, and a big screen TV. That mentality only exists in the US.
This was what I had a problem with. It is offended to me that you would call someone a half wit and assume that their college education was not pertinent to their job. My father is a very skilled, talented and educated person. He works with a lot of great people who all worrk very hard. I would never put someone down for working instead of selling drugs or breaking into your house.
Have you ever watched Dirty Jobs on the Discovery Channel. Their are a lot of people who do jobs that you or I would not want to do and they do not cut you down for the job you do. I felt a lack of respect out of your comments.
That is all.:o:eek: From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, From the top another down hill slope of mine.:mad: But I know the equilibrium's there!:cool: .."Faith No More"
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Broken link? 404 error
Final point: I am a free market guy. I think the market should settle all disputes. If they build the highway and individual consumers refuse to buy products that come that way, it will prove unprofitable to the companies and it will collapse. Same with China- Instead of forcing people, educate them. If no one buys a chinese product they will be forced to change.
What I have a problem with is you, or the government telling me that I have to buy a widget for $30 from a particular supplier instead of a $3 widget because it was produced using immoral/unfair practices. That should be my decision to make, not yours or the governments. You are infringing on other peoples rights, in this country, by the stance you're taking.
If people really don't care and all they want is a lower price, they deserve what they get. If the consumer wants to overpay to gain an item or service made in a particular country, they to deserve what they get. Just don't try and force one of these groups to become the other. That, to me, is as bad as the reality in China.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Broken link? 404 error
http://www.chadbourne.com/files/Publication/c496910b-15a3-479f-b2d1-7b2e0ac83bda/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/3306d955-e8ef-4618-bce2-8b70fd514217/TollRoadUpdateMarch2007.pdf:eek: From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, From the top another down hill slope of mine.:mad: But I know the equilibrium's there!:cool: .."Faith No More"
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BBE 482i
B&K AVP 1030
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[/B]
This was what I had a problem with. It is offended to me that you would call someone a half wit and assume that their college education was not pertinent to their job. My father is a very skilled, talented and educated person. He works with a lot of great people who all worrk very hard. I would never put someone down for working instead of selling drugs or breaking into your house.
Have you ever watched Dirty Jobs on the Discovery Channel. Their are a lot of people who do jobs that you or I would not want to do and they do not cut you down for the job you do. I felt a lack of respect out of your comments.
That is all.:o
I didn't call anyone a half wit. I was describing jobs that a half wit could do. And I didn't even describe it in detail so how you could take personal offense to that is all on you, not me. Like it or not, there are jobs, and there will always be jobs that require a minimal amount of intelligence and only require manual labor. I didn't say people that do those jobs are half wits... merely that those jobs *could* be done by half wits. I didn't disrepect those people either.
Labor is just like anything else and is subject to supply and demand. If 99% of the world population could just as easily do your job, you can bet that your pay compared to everyone else will be proportionately low. You can run circles around yourself trying to find a way to prevent these low wage jobs from going overseas, or you can do the simple and direct thing -- educate yourself with *useful* knowledge or skill that those 99% *don't* have and you will find your situation resolved.
Again, if you somehow find all of this offensive, its not my problem. -
jdhdiggs wrote:Congrats on working 80 hr weeks. (16hr days, really? Evey week for 4 years? Not counting drive time at lunches? I'll call BS on that)
Well, I win on that point.
Every week.
Non-stop.
52 weeks out of the year.
I have to be honest, though, and confess I was off 1 full week from both jobs when I broke two ribs. No Workmens Comp claim, btw. I refuse to participate in the Workmens Comp charade.
If I include drive times (leave house at 5:30 am, back from job 2 at 12:30 am)
that's 19 hours.
Only have another 3 years to go. A walk in the park.Why though?
Bushido.
Long story short:
Ex-wife, nuts. Literally, not figuretively.
Divorce settlement: No alimony, no child support, I assume the Mount Everest of debt (hers) with one stipulation. I get full custody of my minor son, she gets out of Dodge.
He gets a shot at life (along with my other kids.....and Bubba).
Bushido. Duty, Honor, Obligation.If you're not pulling down $150K+ a year working that much you REALLY need to follow PT's advice.
Without turning this point into a religious discussion (taboo), everyone is given talents, and God expects you to use them.
I do.
And I'm happy because of that.
Money is not the be all and end all of life. Do you believe that John Rockefeller, when he closed his eyes for the last time, was happy ?
I don't, yet he had more money than the lot of us combined.
Could I make more, working less hours ?
Yes, but at what cost ? I take it as a source of pride (rightfully or wrongly) that NO ONE in my work history can point to their back and say, "Those footprints are from MBBL's climb to the top".If you work smart, not hard, it's not hard to pull down $60-$70K/year working 35-40 hour weeks.
First point: Examples, please.
Second point: I do work smart. Your implication otherwise is .... what it is.
If by "smart" you mean "How do I profit off of the labors of others ?", the answer would be, "I don't".
I'm as dumb as a bag of creek rocks by that definition, and I'm glad I am.
My talent levels (ie, where do I lie on the "work smart" scale ?)
-Electronics technician
-Journeyman electrician (not licensed)
-Journeyman Pipe Fitter (not licensed)
-Journeyman Millwright (not licensed)
-Programming (C++, Visual Basic, CCL)
-Reactor Operator (Certified)
-Steam Plant Operation (Certified)
-Journeyman HVAC (Certified)
-et al
And the long journey in developing those skills involved work and training.
I mention that because none of those talents were developed at the cost of others. No "footprints on others' backs".
Third Point:
1st job: $60,000 a year.
2nd job: $40,000 a year.40 hr work week? Salaried or hourly? To me, you need to get the job done regardless.
Salaried. And I do.If it takes you 20 hours, work 20, if it takes you 50, work 50.
In your opinion, is there any number of hours in a week at which point overtime should be paid ?Do away with the 40 hour work week from whom? The only people still sticking to that are typically hourly people anyways so it makes no difference.
And, of course, hourly people make no difference.
And those who are a little less intelligent than "us".
And ... handicapped people. What's their function anyway ?
And gypsies.
And homosexuals.
And ... well, darn it, how about them Jews ?
They make no difference in the lives of "us", so , really, ..... what do "we" really need them around for.SLO: My point in all this is that I do have faith that the US can replace the entitlement philosophy and become proactive again in the worlds community. The only question is how long and how hard will we fall before that happens. To me, the answers are "short and soft", push the American people to competition the world market.
And is "American people" restricted to the blue-collar or working class ?
Or does that also include white-collar, ie, management ?
I don't believe I've ever read any suggestions for improving the white-collar sector in your posts.
Do you believe there are areas for improvement in that sector ? If so, what areas, and how much do these (if any) deficiences contribute to the problem with the American work force ?Sal Palooza -
NFW, No Fxxxxxx Way. Check out this weeks Business Week for a great article called "The Real Cost of Offshoring". We don't need un-inspected trucks from ANY other country on US roads; Period!Home Theater
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Uh, no, if you want to say full time is 40 hrs a week, instead of asking 10 guys to work 60 hrs each, you hire 5 temps and have everyone work 40.
$150K is what unskilled (only HS diploma) people were making at TI after 5 years of service working 80 hrs a week. That's why I put that stipulation on it. It has nothing to do with talent, everything to do with hard work. Step on other peoples backs and undercut them? I have never done that. Sorry.
It's funny that you bring up the money thing as being shallow as your the one who, with your first job, should be making more than enough to live on. So you have "huge debts". No that has nothing to do with honor, more of you hiring a bad lawyer.
BTW, my examples for it's easy to make $60K working 40/wk... Umm, look at yourself... Your working 40 hrs a week, no technical degrees, no College degrees and your first job is making you $60K and only 40 hrs a week. See, simple, all you need is hard work.
As for white coller jobs competing? They already are. Why do you think engineering firms hire so many foreign nationals, why they work all over the world. We compete with other firms in the Middle East, China, Japan, Europe etc... Often times out bids are 4-5X was a competitors is because of the wage differences. However, we can show value for that difference and still win the jobs. It's about time the rest of the work force took the same approach.
One last question to you: Should we only work 40 hours a week if it means the destruction of our country?There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
NFW, No Fxxxxxx Way. Check out this weeks Business Week for a great article called "The Real Cost of Offshoring". We don't need un-inspected trucks from ANY other country on US roads; Period!
Well said. Every day you hear people's jobs being shipped over seas. When will it stop. I guess when you have to go out of the country to get a job.engtaz
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jdhdiggs wrote:BTW, my examples for it's easy to make $60K working 40/wk... Umm, look at yourself... Your working 40 hrs a week, no technical degrees, no College degrees and your first job is making you $60K and only 40 hrs a week. See, simple, all you need is hard work.
Who said I didn't have any technical degrees ?
-Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning (that's what HVAC is)
-Navy Nuclear Power School (2 years of school, which is why you have
to enlist for 6 years instead of 4). Reactor Operator.
-Stationary Engineer School.
No college degree ?
Associate's Degree in Electrical Engineering (courtesy of the GI Bill).
3.8 GPA. Was working 7-day rotating shifts while doing that, so I
was satisfied with that.jdhdiggs wrote:See, simple, all you need is hard work.
No, it's more than hard work.hdhdiggs wrote:It's funny that you bring up the money thing as being shallow as your the one who, with your first job, should be making more than enough to live on. So you have "huge debts". No that has nothing to do with honor, more of you hiring a bad lawyer.
Actually, I didn't technically have the huge debts, the ex- did.
Not unlike fishing, I had to let the fish run with the bait for a long time in order to reach the ends that was needed which was obtaining sole custody of my minor son.
By the time I took my case to a lawyer, the case was air tight. She had the choice to make: fight for custody and take responsibility for her debts, or give up custody and I'll assume them.
So she sold her son for silver, as I knew she would.
I could have filed for bankruptcy, and eliminated a lot of that debt. From a "business" standpoint, that might have made financial sense. I didn't believe it was morally right.
I could have sued Ford Motor Company. They let her take the loan papers home for the new car that she bought so that I could sign them. She forged my name, and took it back to them for them to notarize in their office.
Suing them might have made sense from a "business" standpoint, but I didn't believe it was morally right.
And I could have hung her out to dry totally (long arguments with the lawyer over that issue), but I insisted that she receive half of my pension/retirement money that was earned during our marriage. But I didn't, because I didn't believe it would be morally right to do so.
Bushidojdhdiggs wrote:As for white coller jobs competing? They already are. Why do you think engineering firms hire so many foreign nationals, why they work all over the world. We compete with other firms in the Middle East, China, Japan, Europe etc... .
I don't believe I asked about white collar jobs competing. I believe I asked,
"Do you believe there are areas for improvement in the white collar sector ? If so, what areas, and how much do these (if any) deficiences contribute to the problem with the American work force ?
Engineering firms hire so many foreign nationals because they're cheaper.
In addition, nationalism plays a role. Foreign governments are starting to demand a role in the products/services that they acquire from the US.
This is one reason why Boeing, for instance, outsources major components of their new 787 (Dreamliner) to China.jdhdiggs wrote:Often times out bids are 4-5X was a competitors is because of the wage differences. However, we can show value for that difference and still win the jobs. It's about time the rest of the work force took the same approach
A major component of the "value" received in those cases is the stability of the United States of America.
And, as you say, you can show VALUE ADDED for those additional moneys.
VALUE ADDED is something I suggested before as a component in justifying higher wages. (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51036&page=3&highlight=value+added).
But, as I've also mentioned before, that takes the efforts of "LEADERS" in industry. Mere "managers" won't suffice.jdhdiggs wrote:One last question to you: Should we only work 40 hours a week if it means the destruction of our country?
No, and luckily the 40 hour work week doesn't mean the destruction of our country.
At least it won't, if 2 things:
1. Labor does become more active in issues involving productivity.
2. Management displays more aspects of "Leadership". Looking to slave-labor
countries for labor paradigms is not leadership, IMO.Sal Palooza -
Getting back on subject.........
We do not need a bunch of uninsured, pooly maintained Mexican trucks driven
by smucks that don't speak English and got their driver's license out of a cracker jack box. We have too many of these guys tooling around Dallas as it is. If there is an accident, they bail and run.
The whole idea is, let's kill off the American trucking industry with these clowns? NO, NO, NO!
I can see it now. Bilingual signs everywhere. If I wanted to live in Mexico,
I'd move there.
Jdhdiggs, we get it. You believe in free market and we are all overpaid.
Must we be subjected to your lectures every other post? Get a friggen web site of your own
and dedicate it your cause. American car thread ,labor lecture. Nafta highway, labor lecture, ETC.
I am not in the habit of personal attacks. Just lighten up a bit if you would."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
"Jdhdiggs, we get it. You believe in free market and we are all overpaid.
Must we be subjected to your lectures every other post? Get a friggen web site of your own and dedicate it your cause. American car thread ,labor lecture. Nafta highway, labor lecture, ETC."
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Also... yes, jdhdiggs believes that any good that Unions have provided for workers should be dropped in favor of limitless competition. Forget about child labor laws. Forget about the EPA. Forget about OSHA. Forget about fairness in banking. Forget about health care. Forget about Minimum Wage.
Forget about FMLA. Forget about the 40 hour work week. Forget about EEOC policies. Forget about EVERYTHING that benefits the worker. What jdhdiggs really wants to repeal is the "abolishment of slavery". Afterall, everyone should own a few "lesser people" to work the fields. Right? -
Mr big blue,
When it comes to divorce and child custody.... having morals and taking the high (and costly) ground don't serve your best interest in the long run. My opinion... but, I would have said.... "screw the X... I'm going to do WHATEVER it takes to protect my interest and if she has to rot in a jail cell for forging my name side-by-side with the corrupt Notaries... that's justice".
I predict that in a few years you'll look back and be disappointed that you didn't let your lawyer protect ALL your best interests.
Though, I wish you the best and am glad you are happy. But, by the time the bill has been paid, I am sure you will look back and think that you should have forgotten about emotions/fairness/morals and done everything that you could do to protect you and yours. -
Wow...there are so many wacky statements on this thread,I can't even keep up.But let's start with Mr.big blue.He has chosen a path he deems acceptable to him,that he can live with and not compromise his beliefs.Yet you guys are throwing curve balls at him.In life,you do what you have to do and still be able to sleep at night.Well,most of us anyway.And somewhere along the way we try and enjoy life.How many of you are really happy at what you do for a living?Or are you just happy with the money part of it? If you have a job that you like and make some good coin,now thats special and you should count your blessings.Great thing about this country is you have choices.Some make good ones,some not so good,some even have them made for them by others.You reap what you sow my friends.Mr bigblue is ok in my book,aside from his cat fetishes,that is.No need to step on the man for his personal beliefs and the life he has chosen.HT SYSTEM-
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Mr. Bigblue is a alright in my book too. But, a good cat is a dead cat!
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mrbigbluelight wrote: »
Long story short:
Ex-wife, nuts. Literally, not figuretively.
Divorce settlement: No alimony, no child support, I assume the Mount Everest of debt (hers) with one stipulation. I get full custody of my minor son, she gets out of Dodge.
He gets a shot at life (along with my other kids.....and Bubba).
Bushido. Duty, Honor, Obligation.
QUOTE]
I have to say, you've taken the hard path. My brother in law finally got rid
of his Albatros this year. Worth every penny to make HER go away.
She got the state of New York to believe her wild stories. He almost went
to jail over it.
It's sad you now have to work twice as much to pay for it. You sound like
a man with integrity. Most would of taken the easy way out.
Good luck."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
Mr. Big Blue,
I think, by law, the child is entitled to Child Support. The father/mother cannot negotiate that away from the child. -
James has hit the nail on the head, REPEATEDLY.
If you think that we, as Americans are ENTITLED to ANYTHING. Stop reading. Go read the DOI. We aren't ENTITLED to anything material.
This country wasn't founded on the concept of a guarantee of material and financial security. If you think that is an unalienable right, well, I disagree and I think, if you do your homework, so did the framers of our society.
As I and others have pointed out. We have unemployment in the neighborhood of 4-5 percent. Considering the fluid nature of our economy, that's close to statistically full employment. Now, we are also importing folks from overseas to fill high skilled jobs. Yet, what we are whining about is the low skill/low wage jobs going overseas or being filled by illegal immigrants.
So, considering the fact that we are at, essentially, full employment (which, it's tough to argue that we are not)....which jobs would it make sense to hold on to? Low pay/Low skill or High skill/High wage? Logically, it makes sense to export the former and hold on to the latter. My question is why are we not pannicking about the lack of skilled labor in this country and why are we more worried about janitors and other menial laborers than the fact we are not producing a more highly skilled labor force? Obvious answer is that dependance is good for politicians and unions.
EDIT: I think that obvious answer in our failure to promote a competitive labor market is, ultimately, the education system. Now, lets think this through for just a moment. I think it's safe to say that the education system is and has been a system run by people who would be described as 'liberal'. Funding? Please, we can debate this but I know when I look at where my property tax dollars go, it's mostly to the education system and that has done nothing but increase. I'm NOT buying that we don't have enough money in the education system. The American education system, for me, is THE reason I don't subscribe to liberal philosophies. Undeniably, our education system is NOT producing the workforce that we require and the costs continue to spiral out of control.
Now, some have argued that it's not 'fair' to workers to export thier jobs and force them to compete in a global job market. While I have empathy for those folks, the reality is that the foundation of our society is our willingness to improvise, adapt and overcome. If we fail to compete, we will fail as a society.
Now, there has been talk of isolationism. All we have to do is artificially increase the price of overseas goods to make domestically produced products more competitive. In theory, sounds good. In practice this is a disaster of epic proportions. I'm not pissing in the wind, either. Google the Smoot-Hawley Act. Isolationism was practice employed by the US in the 1930's. It just happened to coincide with the Great Depression.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we randomly screw people just because we can. I don't agree with that. However, in the end, the market HAS to dictate our actions. HAS to. We can't afford to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that everything will be ok. The American auto industry is exhibit 'A' of that mentality. Sure, workers have it sweet. Well paid, good working conditions, iron-clad benefits. Meanwhile, the industry as a whole has been going down the toilet for decades. You can only suck a teat for so long.
Additionally, there are folks out there who believe that the 'worker' should be the first priority. Worker compensation should basically take a back seat to company profitablility. The farther you pursue that line of thinking...guranteed 40hr weeks. No OT etc etc.....those are symptoms of Socialism and taken to a grand scale, Communism. Folks, you find me an example of socialism and/or communism that works. It DOESN'T. The French are probably the most successful but thier economy sucks too. The teachings of Marx and Engles, while on the surface appear plausible, they DO NOT WORK.
Why? Simple. Human nature. If you remove incentive, you kill motivation. Without motivation, you kill innovation and any sort of desire to excel. If you don't follow that or agree with it, again, study the demise of the Soviet Union.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
mrbigbluelight wrote: »I'll start out slow:
Would you suggest jdhdiggs that we abandon the 40 hour work week ?
Yes. I would suggest that it is an artificial number in most cases. Again, it's supply and demand. If an employers' demands are unreasonable, the worker has the right to seek employment elsewhere.
Why do we believe that the majority of the population are nothing more than ignorant sloths with no control over thier own destiny? We are not feudal surfs. We have the right and the ability to choose what we will and what we will not do.
My employer, Uncle Sam, requires me to work when and where needed. Right now thats 12 hours a day/5 days a week. In the desert, we worked 16 per day (or more) 6 days a week and an 8 hr shift usually on the 7th. Now, I have the option of not reenlisting. I CAN vote with my feet. So can a guy punching a clock in Toledo. Don't like it? Quit. Find another job. Because, don't you know that if someone has the motivation to improve his lot in life, he'll do it. Put another way, Let's say the employer meets all the workers demands. 40hrs a week, 30 bucks an hour, full benefits. Now, let's say another employer comes in and offers same gig, only 40 bucks an hour. How many feel that the worker shouldn't have the freedom to go to that employer?
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
James has hit the nail on the head, REPEATEDLY.
If you think that we, as Americans are ENTITLED to ANYTHING. Stop reading. Go read the DOI. We aren't ENTITLED to anything material.
This country wasn't founded on the concept of a guarantee of material and financial security. If you think that is an unalienable right, well, I disagree and I think, if you do your homework, so did the framers of our society.
As I and others have pointed out. We have unemployment in the neighborhood of 4-5 percent. Considering the fluid nature of our economy, that's close to statistically full employment. Now, we are also importing folks from overseas to fill high skilled jobs. Yet, what we are whining about is the low skill/low wage jobs going overseas or being filled by illegal immigrants.
So, considering the fact that we are at, essentially, full employment (which, it's tough to argue that we are not)....which jobs would it make sense to hold on to? Low pay/Low skill or High skill/High wage? Logically, it makes sense to export the former and hold on to the latter. My question is why are we not pannicking about the lack of skilled labor in this country and why are we more worried about janitors and other menial laborers than the fact we are not producing a more highly skilled labor force? Obvious answer is that dependance is good for politicians and unions.
Now, some have argued that it's not 'fair' to workers to export thier jobs and force them to compete in a global job market. While I have empathy for those folks, the reality is that the foundation of our society is our willingness to improvise, adapt and overcome. If we fail to compete, we will fail as a society.
Now, there has been talk of isolationism. All we have to do is artificially increase the price of overseas goods to make domestically produced products more competitive. In theory, sounds good. In practice this is a disaster of epic proportions. I'm not pissing in the wind, either. Google the Smoot-Hawley Act. Isolationism was practice employed by the US in the 1930's. It just happened to coincide with the Great Depression.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we randomly screw people just because we can. I don't agree with that. However, in the end, the market HAS to dictate our actions. HAS to. We can't afford to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that everything will be ok. The American auto industry is exhibit 'A' of that mentality. Sure, workers have it sweet. Well paid, good working conditions, iron-clad benefits. Meanwhile, the industry as a whole has been going down the toilet for decades. You can only suck a teat for so long.
Additionally, there are folks out there who believe that the 'worker' should be the first priority. Worker compensation should basically take a back seat to company profitablility. The farther you pursue that line of thinking...guranteed 40hr weeks. No OT etc etc.....those are symptoms of Socialism and taken to a grand scale, Communism. Folks, you find me an example of socialism and/or communism that works. It DOESN'T. The French are probably the most successful but thier economy sucks too. The teachings of Marx and Engles, while on the surface appear plausible, they DO NOT WORK.
Why? Simple. Human nature. If you remove incentive, you kill motivation. Without motivation, you kill innovation and any sort of desire to excel. If you don't follow that or agree with it, again, study the demise of the Soviet Union.
BDT
If an employer agrees to hire and pay me a set wage that we agree on, that is not entitlement. I am not sure why you all continue to use the word entitlement.
I agree unemployment is very low. So the argument that lazy entitlement seeking Americans just doesn't make a good argument. If most all Americans are working and there are "better" jobs available and not enough qualified people to fill them. We need access to better education!
http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm
Most of the new jobs that will be created are jobs that are now low income earning jobs.
The dismemberment of our society is the break down of the family unit.
When it already takes 2 income earners to provide for them and most family's are putting in more that 40 hours a week anyway adding more stress and separation is not going to help!
I live in the Midwest. As you can see in the chart most of the declining jobs for my area are good paying jobs. These will be replaced with Service type jobs which are usually lower paying jobs. So access to better education becomes more difficult.
Our education, health care and social services are in shambles!
There are several problems that are going to be coming to a head and currently there are no real resolutions to any of them. It is nice to say, "work harder". As you can see most people are working harder. We have several things that are broken.:eek: From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, From the top another down hill slope of mine.:mad: But I know the equilibrium's there!:cool: .."Faith No More"
Sony cx985v (for now)
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VMPS Original Tall Boy (Mega Woofers soon) -
Our free market system is absolutely as broken a system as socialism.
I would take the socialist system in Paris over the free market system in Flint, MI every single day.
Who cares that we have near full employment? It does one no good to work if you can't earn a wage high enough to make ends meet. Better to be unemployed and have NOTHING than to be working your **** off for an employer and have NOTHING because of an oppressive economic system combined with a below poverty wage rate.
Personally, I believe there is more fairness and equity in the French system than there is in a free market system (where the labor rate is so low it is virtually free to the business owner).
I could care less whether America can compete on a global basis. What I care about is if the kid down the block can get a job that will supply his basic needs (housing, food, transportation, medicine, etc) for he, his wife and child(ren). Often times, our free market system fails to deliver the basics. This is why a little socialism (Labor unions) go a long way to balancing the economic scales.
Free Market = Sucks
Socialism = Sucks
Free Market + Socialism = Success.
