What are your thoughts on the NAFTA HWY

SLOCOOKN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdxI0zClV_Y

SLOCOOKN

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDA1dyOdTwU&mode=related&search=

jakelm

Hmmmmmm.... Free Trade Agreements = Trade Federation......:eek:

Hmmmmmm.... New World Order = the first Galactic Empire.....:eek:

rskarvan

I hear Ross Perot talking about a big "sucking sound" as our economy balances with Guatamala.

neomagus00

okay... i'm not real good at this sort of thing, so will someone please explain to me why this is bad? i mean, i understand that ultimate power, in the hands of an organisation that exists only to promote its own agenda, is bad, but is that what they're talking about setting up?

cause from that first link, all it seems like is a way for corporations across country lines to agree on stuff, and i have no problem with corporations making money. as soon as the guy from the second clip said 'doublespeak', i stopped listening, because that usually means that a lot of FUD is about to follow.

mrbigbluelight

neomagus00 wrote: »

as soon as the guy from the second clip said 'doublespeak', i stopped listening, because that usually means that a lot of FUD is about to follow.

I'd suggest listening.

jdhdiggs

Unlike some numbnuts, I do have faith in the American people and I welcome the compitition. If we can't get of our lazy asses and compete on a level playing field then we deserve to get our asses kicked. Me? I'd much rather have most of our population in white coller jobs than blue so pushing out mfg jobs and expecting the average American to grow a brain and think for a living should be the expectations in a real world market. Only problem is the imperial federal government does such a poor job educating a majority of our students that I don't think we can make that transition.

My biggest concern is security though, so this looks like a big issue.

Here's a quick defense to the logical argument to my stance: Who would you want to control your future? a 23 year old single mom with 6 kids, on welfare and addicted to crack or a Harvard MBA who worked his **** off to be appointed in charge of a fortune 500 company?

TroyD

C'mon James, if we don't slant the playing field in our favor, how can we expect all the janitors in Detroit to make thier vacation home mortgage payments?

BDT

jdhdiggs

TroyD wrote: »

C'mon James, if we don't slant the playing field in our favor, how can we expect all the janitors in Detroit to make thier vacation home mortgage payments?

BDT

Of course then the janitor won't be an illegal alien as he could make just as much as if he stayed home where it doesn't snow! Immigration issue solved!

MrNightly

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46894&highlight=superhighway

This topic has been discussed before...

SLOCOOKN

I wanted to get some response before I weighed in on this.

Some things that I have learned:

In the highway would be privately funded. It would most likely be funded by Spain. The highway(toll road) would extend from the southern most ports in Mexico ( This would allow some of the largest "superfreight" carriers of China to off load goods). Mexico is pushing to have documented territory at all of their off load ports including Kansas City, and so far there is no one stopping this! This all sounds great.

Slave labor in China makes more goods than ever. Mexico uses slave labor to off load goods and ship them on "their" road. Mexico uses slave labor to off load and America uses Illegal immigrants to drive the loads and unload them.
Mexico is also pushing for different DOT standards for Mexican rigs!

How on earth is a company that employs blue collar citizens of the United States supposed to compete with direct line slave labor imports!

jdhdiggs

First: Gas prices. The higher the prices, the more jobs come back stateside. Would you rather ship it across the ocean and then truck it several thousand miles or just truck it a couple hundred miles?

Second: Productivity-If you listen to the union yahoos, a US worker is worth 5 or 6 slave laborer's. I don't know about that, but I do know the US is the most productive country in the world on a "per labor hour" basis.

Third: Most importantly, do we really WANT the blue coller jobs? Granted, some will need to stay here for strategic and security puposes, but beyond that? Heck, keep moving more into the IP and service arena's. Besides, there will ALWAYS be local blue coller jobs because there's a lot of work where the person must be onsite to do the work.

Last: Slave labor? It will start going away as the volume goes up. Those people have no choice now but when the number of jobs needed to meet the demand doubles, you don't think wages and standard of living will increase across the board? When this happens, won't it make the US more competitive?

BTW, I would admit that it would lower the wages of unskilled and some skilled labor in the US, but it will also decrease prices by a corresponding amount.

SLOCOOKN

jdhdiggs wrote: »

First: Gas prices. The higher the prices, the more jobs come back stateside. Would you rather ship it across the ocean and then truck it several thousand miles or just truck it a couple hundred miles?

Second: Productivity-If you listen to the union yahoos, a US worker is worth 5 or 6 slave laborer's. I don't know about that, but I do know the US is the most productive country in the world on a "per labor hour" basis.

Third: Most importantly, do we really WANT the blue coller jobs? Granted, some will need to stay here for strategic and security purposes, but beyond that? Heck, keep moving more into the IP and service arena's. Besides, there will ALWAYS be local blue coller jobs because there's a lot of work where the person must be on site to do the work.

Last: Slave labor? It will start going away as the volume goes up. Those people have no choice now but when the number of jobs needed to meet the demand doubles, you don't think wages and standard of living will increase across the board?

China has 1,321,851,888 people,

Link: http://www.willthomas.net/Convergence/Weekly/China.htm

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-3-24/20545.html

China is a Capitalist, Socilalist, Quasi-Communist country. If you read through the link you will only get a small taste of what is really going on in China. I do not believe things will change there in the next 50 years. That is to long of a time not to secure our country.

Outsourcing is happening to every sector of America. We are unable to compete with the slave labor markets of the WORLD. Not just China!

Tech jobs to India. We recently had a member on this board who just found out his job was now going to be outsourced.

I live in Missouri. We have a lot of rural populations. Factory work used to be plentiful. It was a good way to earn decent money while going to school. Or providing for your family. Most of the manufacturing jobs are now gone. So some rural communities are having problems finding ways to send kids to school.

Not all people who work in manufacturing are morons, lazy or uneducated.
I was raised on a farm. My father is a machinist at a manufacturing plant called Waterloo. They make tool boxes for Craftsman and several others. My father and MOST of the workers in the plant have some College courses. The company pays them to take classes. My father LOVES his job. He also has a small excavating company as well as a 300 acre farm that we help run.

He recently had to go to Mexico to help build the plant that will eventually close the one in Missouri! The people were earning a wage of just over 3.85 per day!

I don't see Mexico changing anytime soon.

jdhdiggs

Yes, your right, we should just support isolationist policies that keep our lowest skilled, lowest achieving parts of society living high and happy and drive the rest of the world into even more poverty. :rolleyes: Personally I love paying 40% more for everything!

Some college courses? So what? Most of the new generations of people throughout the world have college degrees. That's what we are competing against. When did I ever say Americans were lazy? Didn't I say they were the most productive workers in the world? How does that equal lazy?

What I am saying is that unless we want to destroy our country and become isolationists, we need to adapt. To sit there trying to tell me that we need jobs where guys make tool boxes is absurd! Great, he loves his work, but guess what, he doesn't own that job and it will be outsourced if they can't get cost competitive.

Americans need to start waking up from their dreams where all you need to do is be born here to get a 3,000 Sq ft. house and a 2 car garage. It's time for us to stop punishing achievement and rewarding failure. The US has a labor SHORTAGE for skilled jobs and people are complaining that unskilled jobs are leaving? Really? Um, how about getting pissed that we are importing people from China and India into the US to take our $80K/yr jobs? Me, I'd rather outsource putting a bolt on a car and have another US born engineer/banker/smallbusinessman than protect that job and lose the other positions to foreigners.

Remember, I'm not saying that we should just rollover and die, but rather sack up and PROVE that we are better than the rest of the world instead of instituting isolationist/protectionist policies and claim that we're #1. If we can't prove that, then we deserve to fall.

Oh, how much were people making in the US during the great depression? How much did that change in the 25 years following? How about 80 years later?

SLOCOOKN

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Yes, your right, we should just support isolationist policies that keep our lowest skilled, lowest achieving parts of society living high and happy and drive the rest of the world into even more poverty. :rolleyes: Personally I love paying 40% more for everything!

Some college courses? So what? Most of the new generations throughout the world have college degrees. When did I ever say Americans were lazy? Didn't I say they were the most productive workers in the world? How does that equal lazy?

What I am saying is that unless we want to destroy our country and become isolationists, we need to adapt. To sit there trying to tell me that we need jobs where guys make tool boxes is absurd! Great, he loves his work, but guess what, he doesn't own that job and it will be outsourced if they can't get cost competitive.

Americans need to start waking up from their dreams where all you need to do is be born here to get a 3,000 Sq ft. house and a 2 car garage. It's time for us to stop punishing achievement and rewarding failure. The US has a labor SHORTAGE for skilled jobs and people are complaining that unskilled jobs are leaving? Really? Um, how about getting pissed that we are importing people from China and India into the US to take our $80K/yr jobs? Me, I'd rather outsource putting a bolt on a car and have another US born engineer/banker/small businessman than protect that job and lose the other positions to foreigners.

Everything is being outsourced. You just said it your self! So who is safe!
How is this highway going to help any of us. That is my question.

Why are you going to need a U.S. banker. Most of the companies are International Companies doing business in the U.S., Why would you need small business they can't compete with large companies bidding low on jobs because they have illegal workers. And engineers, who needs them. Roads and Bridges will be built by International Companies with their own engineers!

Look at all the talk about outsourcing of jobs. Look at the quality of the work.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53864

Just because you have a degree dose not mean you are qualified!

jdhdiggs

Who is safe? Those willing to do a job for the wage paid. Those who are the most productive. Those who are the smartest. Those with the most talent. Farmers, construction workers, plumbers, cooks, electricians. Those are the people that are safe. Unless you are grossly overpaid for what you do, you're safe. IT jobs? They got outsourced and are now coming back.

Here's a question: Explain how you would stop globalization and yet keep America's economy the strongest in the world. You're awfully good at ignoring all the benifits and counters to your negative opinions. Let's see if you can come up with any answer that doesn't have us looking like a bassakwards country in 30 years.

Here's another question: What kind of motivation is there to innovate if everyone is safe? I mean you described rural factories where, from the tone of your post, anyone could expect a good life having done nothing but win the lucky sperm club to be born in the right place. It is that thinking that has killed that part of America and the more you try to protect it, the more backwards and obsolete the country will become. We need to move on from the economy of 50 years ago.

Jstas

TroyD wrote: »

C'mon James, if we don't slant the playing field in our favor, how can we expect all the janitors in Detroit to make thier vacation home mortgage payments?

BDT

With the Unions! DUH!







*runs away as the bees start screaming out the nest*

SLOCOOKN

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Who is safe? Those willing to do a job for the wage paid. Those who are the most productive. Those who are the smartest. Those with the most talent. Farmers, construction workers, plumbers, cooks, electricians. Those are the people that are safe. Unless you are grossly overpaid for what you do, you're safe. IT jobs? They got outsourced and are now coming back.

Here's a question: Explain how you would stop globaliation and yet keep America's economy the strongest in the world. You're awfully good at ignoring all the benifits and counters to your negative opinions. Let's see if you can come up with any answer that doesn't have us looking like a bassakwards country in 30 years.

You can't stop globalization! It is driven by technology and profit. The problem exists there are no controls to manage it. We have systems set in place to try and regulate economic factors such as inflation, growth, import and exports. I have given several examples of jobs that we are loosing here and here is another. Von Hoffmann is a printing and binding company with over 400 jobs in a community of 40,000. They were recently bought out by R.R. Donely . The Printing facility is being shut down and moved to Central America. Why Because of labor cost savings.

We can't have the strongest economy if we are competing for labor rates with 3rd world countries.

There are winners in this process. A company exploiting cheap labor rates to increase profits benefits CEO's and shareholders. I am not saying they can't or shouldn't they have a job to do. I understand that.

PhantomOG

If *ALL* the jobs are going overseas, I'd like to know why so many people at my high tech company (and tons of others) are here on work visas.... sounds like people overseas are far more motivated then people here.

Necessity is the mother of invention. When people in the US wake up to the fact that you absolutely need a complete useful college degree (not basketweaving) to compete in the world ecomony, we'll be better off.

You know why we can't compete for blue collar factory jobs with China and Mexico? Because people in China and Mexico don't expect a factory job which could be done by your average halfwit to pay enough to support a family of five, buy a two-story house, two cars, and a big screen TV. That mentality only exists in the US.

jdhdiggs

POG: Exactly. Shoot, over a third of my company is on work Visa's and TI's engineering group is probably 50% from what I saw there. I love that we complain about losing a mindless job at $10-$15/hr but can't fill ones that pay >$30/hr.

"Life, Liberty, and a $40K/year job" hmmm, funny, I don't remember the part about a job being in there...

SLO: You can stop it. Look at China's controls from after WW2 to 1990. All we'd have to do is adopt the foreign policy that they used.

Note to self: don't be a drone laborer...

Also SLO: If we didn't outsource the labor to China or Mexico, those workers would still lose their jobs to robots. They priced themselves out of the market. Time for them to adapt or ....

SLOCOOKN

PhantomOG wrote: »

If *ALL* the jobs are going overseas, I'd like to know why so many people at my high tech company (and tons of others) are here on work visas.... sounds like people overseas are far more motivated then people here.

Necessity is the mother of invention. When people in the US wake up to the fact that you absolutely need a complete useful college degree (not basketweaving) to compete in the world ecomony, we'll be better off.

You know why we can't compete for blue collar factory jobs with China and Mexico? Because people in China and Mexico don't expect a factory job which could be done by your average halfwit to pay enough to support a family of five, buy a two-story house, two cars, and a big screen TV. That mentality only exists in the US.

ecomony?

SLOCOOKN

Note to self: don't be a drone laborer...[/QUOTE]

I have a degree in Business Management and I run my own finance company!

Thanks:)

PhantomOG

SLOCOOKN wrote: »

ecomony?

Ahh... no retort, only spelling. True sign that the argument has been lost. :rolleyes:

jdhdiggs

SLOCOOKN wrote: »

I have a degree in Business Management and I run my own finance company!

Thanks:)

Non-sequiter? Seriously, is this supposed to mean anything?

SLOCOOKN

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Non-sequiter? Seriously, is this supposed to mean anything?

You quote...Don't be a mindless drone.

jdhdiggs

Wasn't describing you, just the people who have those jobs, expect them to always be there and play the victum when it doesn't turn up roses for them. Good for you, control your own destiny then you shouldn't care about this topic. Hell, it should help you!

SLOCOOKN

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Wasn't describing you, just the people who have those jobs, expect them to always be there and play the victum when it doesn't turn up roses for them. Good for you, control your own destiny then you shouldn't care about this topic. Hell, it should help you!

Why are we giving them a chance to compete!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,281722,00.html

jdhdiggs

Because we have no choice beyond isolationism or starting WW3.

Trade embargo's won't work, Tariff's won't work... China's too big, India's too big. The EU's too big. Any country with a population of say 50 Million and a GDP of 350 Billion or so is too big to blockade as a single country. Our only choices would be to bomb them or not except goods from anyone.

A united fron from the UN and an international embargo would work, but in reality there is no ability to enforce it People would cheat and it would do nothing as virtually all products are now commodities.

SLOCOOKN

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Because we have no choice beyond isolationism or starting WW3.

Trade embargo's won't work, Tariff's won't work... China's too big, India's too big. The EU's too big. Any country with a population of say 50 Million and a GDP of 350 Billion or so is too big to blockade as a single country. Our only choices would be to bomb them or not except goods from anyone.

A united fron from the UN and an international embargo would work, but in reality there is no ability to enforce it People would cheat and it would do nothing as virtually all products are now commodities.

Eluding to your comment from earlier that Americans are more productive, and willing to do the work why are we not taxing companies that are moving operations to these countries? I do not want to continue to support or build a highway making it EASIER for big business to do business with them.

We have a moral responsibility. If we can do it, WE SHOULD BE DOING it.

What is the problem with America having a manufacturing base?

jdhdiggs

The problem is we can not be competitive in that environment outside of our country. You would need to have the EU, Canada, Australiam Brazil, and Russia all proposing the same idea to keep India and China from doing these types of things and it's not going to happen.

Example:
If China makes a car for $3,000 and sells it around the world for $10,000 and it costs the US $10,000 to just make the car, who does the US sell it to? Well, if we keep the Chinese car out, we sell to the US. Beyond that, everyone would buy the Chinese one.

That's what would make us unable to compete. Not only that, but the value of the US dollar would fall like a rock. We become more and more isolated from the rest of the world and would take a back seat to China and India, possibly the EU. Not much of a solution.

We have to compete, not only domestically, but internationally as well to remain the dominent economy. The former is easy, that latter nearly impossible given the current structure of the US economy. That's why I'm saying we need to move to the "next" economy. There are only 5 roles in the international markets: The banker, The Innovator, The Technician, The producer, Everyone Else. At present the US is the primary as the innovator, technician, and producer. That is an unsustainable so which do we pick? To me, the technician is going to Asia:either Japan or India. The producer is going to China, done deal. What are we left with? The innovator and banker... Well, the US owes so much money it can't be the bank so we have to be the innovator. The longer we fight to keep the producer status, the harder is will be for us to keep our lead in the innovator side.

Can we be all three? Yes, but it would take a massive overhaul of the current US culture and I don't see that happening. So we need to get educated, get skilled, and move our efforts away from protecting mindless jobs and use that effort into educating the next generation for their role upcoming world economy.

mrbigbluelight

I'll start out slow:

Would you suggest jdhdiggs that we abandon the 40 hour work week ?