More Ramblings -- The Topic is "Synergy"

Early B.

Does anyone really know what synergy is?

Here is the actual definition:

1. The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.
2. Cooperative interaction among groups, especially among the acquired subsidiaries or merged parts of a corporation, that creates an enhanced combined effect.

In audio, the concept of synergy is ill defined. (Please post it here if you stumble upon a definition for it in audio.) Is it possible to produce a combined greater effect than the sum of an audio system's individual parts? Greater than what?

The idea is that all of one's components are working harmoniously together to produce high fidelity sound. Synergy presupposes the absence of weak links in the chain. Just because component A sounds better on a system than component B doesn't imply synergy. IMO, if one has actually achieved synergy, then there's no need to search for upgrades or tweaks. In other words, the system is as good as it can get. Therefore, synergy is what we all strive to achieve with our systems. So if you claim to have system synergy, then you have reached "audio nirvana."

Bottom line -- "synergy" is another one of those worthless, illusive, and meaningless audio terms we use to make it appear as though we really know what the hell we're talking about.

Any comments or thoughts?

Yashu

Synergy.

I look at it kindof like trying to get a sum that is greater than the parts. Like when you have a bright set of speakers, but a warm amp and a dark set of ICs, seperately they might not be perfect, but together they make a more neutral, musical system.

That is synergy to me.

Some might say that it could also describe something like the NAD/PSB combo, or seperate hardware that was built with having it be used together in mind, maybe components by the same company or from the same line.

PolkThug

Synergy is ineffable.

Early B.

Yashu wrote: »

Synergy.

I look at it kindof like trying to get a sum that is greater than the parts. Like when you have a bright set of speakers, but a warm amp and a dark set of ICs, seperately they might not be perfect, but together they make a more neutral, musical system.

That is synergy to me.

IMO, high quality gear should not be defined in terms of "bright" or "warm" or "dark." If so, this means the component is coloring the sound, which is something you don't want. So it doesn't make sense to put a bunch of bright and dark components together to create a "neutral" sound; all of your components should be "neutral" sounding.

cfrizz

Synergy is whatever sounds great to you. Only you can know when you achieve it.

Music Joe

accentuate the positive attenuate the negative...backtrack a step when positive becomes negative....get the best speakers you will afford and like.

steveinaz

Synergy is well-mated components. If you have a bright CD player, you get speaker "x" that is a bit laid back, and....viola, you've got synergy. It's how well each of your individual components exploits the strengths of the others.

dkg999

I agree with steveinaz! It's not that you get more than the sum of the components per se, but that each of your components mate well together and you get close to the full potential and contribution of each component. None of the pieces of gear in my 2 ch rig are outstanding or high-end in themselves. However they seem to mate well together (luck, not planning ) and everytime I swap out a component, it does something to the sound I don't like.

Ricardo

Stop trying to find the right words; a system either sounds "good" or it doesn't. The definition of good varies from one individual to another. For me, good means enjoyable.

DarqueKnight

Early B. wrote: »

Bottom line -- "synergy" is another one of those worthless, illusive, and meaningless audio terms we use to make it appear as though we really know what the hell we're talking about.

The concept of "synergy" is meaningless without the context of a goal that you are working towards. In the context of audio, there must be an "absolute" musical reproduction goal that the listener is working to achieve. In other words, a group of components may be of high quality and work well together, but their performance cannot be accurately evaluated unless there is some absolute standard to gauge that performance.

Yashu

all of your components should be "neutral" sounding.

There is no such thing as completely neutral, especially with dedicated music systems. Every thing you put in the signal path is going to affect the signal in one way or another. Balance is something that people should reasonably shoot for... no system is perfect, but we can and SHOULD use the weaknesses and strenghts of our equipment to our advantage.

Early B.

HTrookie wrote: »

Stop trying to find the right words; a system either sounds "good" or it doesn't. The definition of good varies from one individual to another. For me, good means enjoyable.

Bose and boomboxes are "enjoyable" to most people, but that doesn't mean they sound good. For the audiophile, good sound is simply not good enough.

If a great sounding system is synergistic, then I wanna know what the hell synergy is so I can augment my system accordingly. What happens, quite often, is that we believe our systems accurately represent the words we use to describe them, but we rarely ponder the true meaning of these words.

Early B.

Yashu wrote: »

There is no such thing as completely neutral, especially with dedicated music systems. Every thing you put in the signal path is going to affect the signal in one way or another. Balance is something that people should reasonably shoot for... no system is perfect, but we can and SHOULD use the weaknesses and strenghts of our equipment to our advantage.

I agree that no component is essentially neutral, but we can subjectively label to what we perceive as "bright" vs. "dark," "lackluster," or "laid back." If a component is neither of these things, then we describe it as "neutral." It doesn't make sense, for example, to buy a "bright" amp and attempt to neutralize it with a "dark" pre or interconnect.

pearsall001

I look at it as the whole is greater than the parts. In other words with the addition of anything new to your system it will have an effect, that being either positive or negative on the sound quality. If things jell together it will be a positive effect (synergy). A good example is tweaks. Some work some don't but you pretty much know in a short time. As you keep adding tweaks which synergize (is that a word?) with your system you will notice the sound quality improving, maybe slightly at first but there is a compounding effect which becomes quite noticeable. Synergy baby synergy!!

Ricardo

Early B. wrote: »

Bose and boomboxes are "enjoyable" to most people, but that doesn't mean they sound good. For the audiophile, good sound is simply not good enough.

As I see it, the problem is that when we call ourselves "audiophiles", we stop enjoying boomboxes or Bose, because we "know" they are not "good"....to be honest, sometimes I envy those that enjoy their music coming from a system that we "audiophiles" cannot enjoy, just because we had the BAD LUCK of hearing good systems and now we are in a journey looking for perfection.....good luck to everyone in getting there

Early B.

HTrookie wrote: »

As I see it, the problem is that when we call ourselves "audiophiles", we stop enjoying boomboxes or Bose, because we "know" they are not "good"....to be honest, sometimes I envy those that enjoy their music coming from a system that we "audiophiles" cannot enjoy, just because we had the BAD LUCK of hearing good systems and now we are in a journey looking for perfection.....good luck to everyone in getting there

Yep. Before I met you guys, I was happy with my Yamaha HTIB. ****.:p

madmax

Synergy isn't an all or nothing thing. You can have some percentage of synergy. I doubt you would ever know the percentage of synergy you have until you have becomed very seasoned. Even then you will only have your own experiences.

Yashu

It doesn't make sense, for example, to buy a "bright" amp and attempt to neutralize it with a "dark" pre or interconnect

Yes I agree with you there... I think that in the ideal world we would go out one day and buy everything at the same time, but I know that I have to make due with what I have, so the vicious cycle of trying to make up for the shortfalls with the next upgrade, well... it's hard to get out of that. I have rotated so many pieces through my system... I took a step back and I simplified, pruned, and even suprised myself at what kindof stuff "made the cut", as it were.

Anyway, I stand beside what I said about synergy, because I think that in the real world, we have to make due with what we have, and a little synergy can go a long way.

rskarvan

I agree with HTRookie. Audiophiles often miss the point. I like Polk. I like Krell. I like Thiel. And, I think the Bose satellite cube systems with subwoofer sound really good - especially considering how unobtrusive the system is when installed. Audiophile... no. Really cool... definitely.

Yashu

I wouldn't go as far as saying bose sounds "good", I would call the little cubes non-fatiguing for their target audience.

Ignorance is bliss for some people.

madmax

I find AM radio satisfying at times.

adam2434

My limited experience with synergy:

I didn't put much thought or stock in the "synergy" thing until I started playing around with the source (DACs) with different speakers. I found that DACs and speakers I've had have significantly different sonic characteristics, and therefore different combinations can have yield different results - good or bad depending on the combination.

We all know that speakers have their individual sonic characteristics and will, IMO, have the largest impact on the sound of one's system. For example, my LS90s sound much more detailed and forward than my Monitor 7Cs.

Playing with 4 DACs (internal CDP, Entech, Lite DAC AM modded, Lite DAC AH modded) over the last few months, I learned the DACs can sound significantly different, especially in regards to bass depth/punch and high frequency level/resolution.

With the Entech and LS90s, the high freqs sounded exaggerated and somewhat harsh (a bad thing). However, this same DAC with the 7Cs seemed to add a little resolution (a good thing). I found the DAC AM to sound very similar to my CDP's internal DAC. The DAC I've kept in my system is actually the DAC AM, which is the lowest cost DAC (from MSRP standpoint) of the 3 external DACs I tried. However, it is the one that has some "magic" and makes me just want to listen to the music and not analyze the sound.

Granted the DACs I've tried are on the low end of price (in the $300-400 range). Also my speakers are not high-end. So the thing I've been wondering is if at some level of gear quality and price point, does synergy become less of an issue because there are fewer flaws and limitations in the gear? Taken to the extreme, at some price, can you buy near-perfect speakers and near-perfect electronics and get near-perfect sound, without being concerned with synergy?

janmike

"Etymology: New Latin synergia, from Greek synergos working together
1 : SYNERGISM; broadly : combined action or operation
2 : a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements (as resources or efforts) "

In my opinion synergy is very important in audio. There are certain combinations of equipment that work great together. I know that there are certain brands that do not work well with other brands. For the 2CH system that I am putting together is all about finding what works best with what.

Yashu

can you buy near-perfect speakers

Yes, they are mostly studio monitors. The better Genelecs will give you near perfect response in the proper rooms... but, and this is a big but.

Most people find the better studio monitors to be too sterile and analytical for music listening. This is interesting, because you would think that with a $25k pair of speakers you are going to get a pretty f'ing flat response, but if you look at Stereophile and their measurements, even the best regarded and expensive speakers can have response curves that are less than many studio monitors that are a fraction of their cost. Wilson Audio, that sells the WATT/Puppy speaker, my $25k example, Wilson will admit that they actually tune the thing differently than the speakers they make for monitoring. They inject a slight color and "musicality" into their consumer design...

I think synergy is something that is just as important for the super high end as it is for the more modest setups... as long as you are in the land of music enjoyment, as opposed to studio work where things are more predictable.

When you think about it, your gear is somewhat like a musical instrument of it's own, where tuning and synergy can have it make music as opposed to just playback music.

madmax

Yashu wrote: »

This is interesting, because you would think that with a $25k pair of speakers you are going to get a pretty f'ing flat response, but if you look at Stereophile and their measurements, even the best regarded and expensive speakers can have response curves that are less than many studio monitors that are a fraction of their cost. Wilson Audio, that sells the WATT/Puppy speaker, my $25k example, Wilson will admit that they actually tune the thing differently than the speakers they make for monitoring. They inject a slight color and "musicality" into their consumer design...

I think most speaker manufacturers admit to setting their own response curves. A totally flat response is not necessarily what sounds the best, or even good. If a company "voices" their speakers then they are not flat. Voicing is done after all the computer and calculation type work.
madmax

Yashu

Yes exactly... that is why I think synergy is a pretty important thing on this side of the audio world... whether we don't like the overuse of the word or not, the fact is it truly does matter what types of equipment we put to run with each other.

Music Joe

Putting together a system,each part having the same strengths and weaknesses. I think we all try for balancing at some level...actively or passively.

Spacedeckman

Early B. wrote: »

I agree that no component is essentially neutral, but we can subjectively label to what we perceive as "bright" vs. "dark," "lackluster," or "laid back." If a component is neither of these things, then we describe it as "neutral." It doesn't make sense, for example, to buy a "bright" amp and attempt to neutralize it with a "dark" pre or interconnect.

No, you would want to avoid the "bright" amp, but, when you are talking about higher end audio components in a higher end system, something that does everything well, but is a little "dark" or "bright" would not necessarily be an unacceptable choice. The unit, however, will end up tilting the balance of your system somewhat, as every component does. Then trying to balance out the system is the next priority.

It makes no sense to buy something that is tilted one way, then try to balance it by buying something tilted the other way. Each tilt is different and has different character. Audio isn't a crapshoot, a great system often takes years to build to your satisfaction. Then you get bored with something and want change. I was there, with a very neutral system, but it lacked the dynamics and bottom end control that I wanted. I was happy for 4 years with it, but then made the mistake of bringing a "completely different" amp in, and other temptations got in the way.

Mark

madmax

Spacedeckman wrote: »

It makes no sense to buy something that is tilted one way, then try to balance it by buying something tilted the other way. Mark

Yes but sometimes you take that bright amp (or whatever) because of overwhelming benifits in other areas and need to tune it a bit.
madmax

mldennison

I thought that I would throw this out there. I think that synergy is the very reason that all of us are as interested in audio as we are. Without synergy, there would be specific components which are very good for a specific price point so we would be able to definatively say "this is the best system you can buy for X dollars". However, since different components sound different with one another and since the synergy of these components is subjective, it is now interesting to experiment and discuss different compnents and therefore there is a reason for Club Polk. Without synergy, I think audio would be very boring.

Spacedeckman

madmax wrote: »

Yes but sometimes you take that bright amp (or whatever) because of overwhelming benifits in other areas and need to tune it a bit.
madmax

That was kind of my point. I agree with you, just didn't state it very well.

Mark