AVR for LSis

JimBRICK

WilliamM2 wrote: »

So you think the Monitor series would sound better than the Lsi's if using a reciever? I don't think so.

Using seperates is better with any speaker in my experience, that's why I have run seperates for over 25 years. But when giving advice on the forum you have to realise that not everyone will want to spend that much, just to get that last little bit of improvement.

I'm a perfect example of that happening.

I was running 2x rti10, 2x fxi5 and a csi5 with a yamaha rxv1300.


Now I have my borrowed monitor 50, cs1 and monitor 30's being powered by my NAD t743

I can honestly tell you that the monitors with my nad sound alot better than the rti's did with the yamaha. There isnt even a comparison. I think I would have been happier with my RTI's if I had a different reciever but after 2 different yammies I was turned off on them

now I have my lsi's on the way but have learned alot in the past few months and will be powering them properly

Demiurge

bbeacham wrote: »

The individuals who are constantly stating that you cannot use LSi speakers with an AVR, but, rather, need to use seperate components, are simply trying to justify their own equipment choice. Apparently, they are scared that somebody might spend $1000-$2000 on an AVR, use it with LSi speakers, and actually enjoy the experience.

So go ahead and buy the LSi speakers. You can't go wrong. The LSi speakers will help you get the maximum sound out of your system. If at some point in the future you decide to upgrade your electronics you will still be happy with your speakers.

Ah, man, nobody said any of that. :mad:

You're just not listening (reading), which might explain why you can't grasp the difference in sound on a pair of speakers powered by an amp & AVR as opposed to just the AVR.

The more I read from you, the more I'm begining to think you're trying to convince yourself that your speakers sound fine driven off of only an AVR. Which, if true, fine, but I suspect you wouldn't be taking this all so personally if it was.

MSALLA

My point is that I don't think the sound of the Lsi without an amp justifies the price they sell for. Bottom line. However, with an amp, I think they are a bargin. All of this means nothing because what sounds good to my ears may sound like junk to someone else. This is a hobby of opinion and personal choice.

cmy330go

JimBRICK wrote: »

I'm a perfect example of that happening.

I was running 2x rti10, 2x fxi5 and a csi5 with a yamaha rxv1300.


Now I have my borrowed monitor 50, cs1 and monitor 30's being powered by my NAD t743

I can honestly tell you that the monitors with my nad sound alot better than the rti's did with the yamaha. There isnt even a comparison. I think I would have been happier with my RTI's if I had a different reciever but after 2 different yammies I was turned off on them

now I have my lsi's on the way but have learned alot in the past few months and will be powering them properly

Right idea, but not even close to a fair compairson.

Rti's tend towards the bright side, and so do Yamaha receivers. Together they can be down right harsh. Had you run the RTi's with a Denon, HK, B&K etc. you would likely be singing a different song.

JimBRICK

thats what I said if I would have had my NAD I probably would have been happy woth the rti's and not upgraded.............................OH who am I fooling I would have upgraded anyways

Ferres

If you want to try the pre-pro/ amp route and have space issues? The Rotel rsp1068 matched with rmb1077 would work fine. Stacked, they'd take up the space of an average avr.

Marcinko7

I can attest to the fact that the LSI's come alive with external amplification. The Denon's certainly can't push the LSI's for long without one. Just remember when your pumping 300-400 watts of power to all channels to check on the max wattage your surrounds can handle. The Lsi F/X's smell particularly foul as they melt off the wall. :eek:

Demiurge

Marcinko7 wrote: »

I can attest to the fact that the LSI's come alive with external amplification. The Denon's certainly can't push the LSI's for long without one. Just remember when your pumping 300-400 watts of power to all channels to check on the max wattage your surrounds can handle. The Lsi F/X's smell particularly foul as they melt off the wall. :eek:

Owww, that happened to you? :eek:

jdhdiggs

Your not pushing 300-400W into your surrounds. You'd be lucky to be pushing 20....

engtaz

Marcinko7 wrote: »

I can attest to the fact that the LSI's come alive with external amplification. The Denon's certainly can't push the LSI's for long without one. Just remember when your pumping 300-400 watts of power to all channels to check on the max wattage your surrounds can handle. The Lsi F/X's smell particularly foul as they melt off the wall. :eek:

What amps are you running???

cfrizz

How loud did you have it?? I've got 405wpc going to my FXI3's & they haven't melted, sound terrific & I still have my hearing intact!

McLoki

bbeacham wrote: »

From the LSi15 manual, which I assume was written by Polk and reviewed by their engineers.

RECOMMENDED AMPLIFICATION/
20-250 watts/channel

EFFICIENCY (1M,1W):
88dB

http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/manuals/home/LSi7_9_15Manual.pdf

I happened to read this on AVS Forum in a thread about "why do people recommend amps for LSi speakers" and was written by "Eric" in Polk Audio tech support.

Well they don't need dedicated amps but they do perform their best when powered by a quality outboard amp particularly for dynamic range. As stated, they are low impedance- lower efficiency speakers, thus if you want to crank the system, you'll need more power to do so. Since they are our current best line of speaker the 4 ohm impedance rating weeds out lower end electronics.

Use a receiver with high current capability, monitor its temperature and don't expect it to be as loud as a rock concert and it'll be fine.

__________________
Polk Audio Tech Support

Personally I think they do not need the higher wattage that an outboard amp offers as much as the extra current and dampening factor that is available with an outboard amp. Of course that is just my opinion.

Michael

criverajr

Rotel my friend Rotel, been there done that, sounds great, push 2 pairs of 9's, one pair of 15'a and lsic, did a great job, done the preamp amp thing Rotel, B&K, Nad, Arcam, Acurus, Classe, try it and see, you may be plesantly surprized. One last one Sunfire Ultimate reciever.

cfrizz

Michael, your own Cinepro 3k6 belies this statement.:eek:

Output Power....... .350 WPC/8 OHMS (typ. 450W)

500 WPC/4 OHMS (typ. 670W)

McLoki wrote: »

Personally I think they do not need the higher wattage that an outboard amp offers as much as the extra current and dampening factor that is available with an outboard amp. Of course that is just my opinion.Michael

McLoki

cfrizz wrote: »

Michael, your own Cinepro 3k6 belies this statement.:eek:

Output Power....... .350 WPC/8 OHMS (typ. 450W)

500 WPC/4 OHMS (typ. 670W)

Not really - you forgot two quotes:

Peak Current... 120 amps per channel (720 amps total) .1sec pulse, .5 ohms

Damping Factor ...Over 1000 (!) (10Hz-1kHz)

If watts was all it had going for it, maybe - but it is pretty darn good with current and damping factor as well.

I think if it has high wattage, you often also end up with good current and damping factor. (hence the often quoted 200wpc recommendation) You are not really shopping for the wattage, just if the manufacturer makes an amp with that many watts, many times the current and damping factor is pretty high as well.

Once again - this was just my opinion.

Michael

cfrizz

Well you see for me, the wattage is the only thing I understand out of those specs. The rest is a bunch of gibberish!:eek:

Wattage = power. Lots of wattage = lots of power. And my ears have told me that lots of power = very happy speakers & a very happy me!:D

McLoki

Damping Factor

A high damping factor indicates that an amplifier will have greater control over the movement of the speaker cone, particularly in the bass region near the resonant frequency of the driver's mechanical resonance.

This should give an amp the ability to stop the woofer when the music stops. If the amp does not have as good a damping factor - you get descriptions of "sloppy bass" and "overhang" where a drum beat sounds more like a warble or like it has an echo rather than a sudden attack of sound and then it is over.


Current can be a little harder to explain as more things come into play.

A neat analogy to help understand these terms is a system of plumbing pipes. The voltage is equivalent to the water pressure, the current is equivalent to the flow rate, and the resistance is like the pipe size.

Let's say you increase the diameter of the hose and all of the fittings to the tank. You probably guessed that this makes more water come out of the hose. This is like decreasing the resistance in an electrical system, which increases the current flow.

What this means to you is your speaker is expecting a certain flow rate of power to work correctly. The impedance of your speaker changes with each frequency that is played. It is like having a variable size pipe leading to your speaker and your amp has to change water pressure with each sound that is played to keep the flow rate the same all the time.

A lot of things come into play to make this happen, but a good amplifier can change as needed at any ohm (pipe diameter) rating that comes along. If the pipe gets to large (ohm rating of the speaker drops to much), or the demanded flow rate gets to large (turn the volume up to high) the amp (pump) runs full bore trying to keep the rate of water flow the same, but it cant keep up. The amp overheats and goes into thermal protect mode.

If you are playing your amp to loud (flow rate demanded gets to high) - it can happen even with a smaller pipe (higher ohm speaker). If the pipe gets large enough (ohm rating is low enough) , it can happen even at low volumes.

Better explanation or no? Anyway that is kind of what happens. I am sure any engineers we have on the board will correct any mistakes I made with the flow example.

These are just a few examples of why a separate amplifier can sound better than one built into an AVR even if the wattage is the same and they are played at the same (normal) volume. If one amp can control the speakers and adjust to the music (volume and sound changes) better than another, why would you assume them to sound the same just because the wattage is the same?

Michael

tonyb

bbeacham wrote: »

The individuals who are constantly stating that you cannot use LSi speakers with an AVR, but, rather, need to use seperate components, are simply trying to justify their own equipment choice. Apparently, they are scared that somebody might spend $1000-$2000 on an AVR, use it with LSi speakers, and actually enjoy the experience.

So go ahead and buy the LSi speakers. You can't go wrong. The LSi speakers will help you get the maximum sound out of your system. If at some point in the future you decide to upgrade your electronics you will still be happy with your speakers.

Really starting to wonder about you buddy boy....yes,you can use a AVR with the LSI line.That is true.But as others have said,why buy them if your only going to use 70% of what they are capable of? Would you buy a car with 400 horses and never go over 50 mph ? Think not.Would you buy a HD TV and not watch any HD chanels ? Think not.Scared that some would enjoy an AVR with LSI's ? No...just stupid for spending the cash on speakers you will never get to really hear.

BTW Mike....nice explanation in previous post.

McLoki

Comment deleted due to lack of caring what someone else decides to run their LSi's with.

It comes down to this: If you would like to run them the way they should be run - research then spend your money. If not - just spend your money and bask in your ignorance.

Michael

venomclan

I cannot beleive this argument is still going after all these years. If people believe that their AVR is "good enough" for their LSi's, so be it. Those who want to go the seperate amp route, go for it.

I think that it would be in Polk's best interest to make the next LSI series 8 ohm.
v

cfrizz

Michael, THANK YOU!!!!

This is the first time someone has actually put this in language I could understand!!! YAHOO!

I have saved your post, for when I need to remember this stuff!

Thank you!:)

cfrizz

V, there is NOTHING wrong with the LSI series, including the 4ohm rating! This is simply a matter of lack of knowledge. If Polk would tell the people who sell the LSI's to set them up & run them on the correct equipment a lot of this would be settled.

But even if they didn't, we here are doing a good job of educating those who don't know.

Those who choose to remain ignorant even after hearing the truth deserve whatever they get as far as damage to their speakers, equipment, or simply never discovering what their speakers are capable of sounding like!

venomclan wrote: »

I cannot beleive this argument is still going after all these years. If people believe that their AVR is "good enough" for their LSi's, so be it. Those who want to go the seperate amp route, go for it.

I think that it would be in Polk's best interest to make the next LSI series 8 ohm.
v

tonyb

I like a woman that can lay it on the line...Amen Cathy:)

venomclan

cfrizz wrote: »

V, there is NOTHING wrong with the LSI series, including the 4ohm rating! This is simply a matter of lack of knowledge. If Polk would tell the people who sell the LSI's to set them up & run them on the correct equipment a lot of this would be settled.

But even if they didn't, we here are doing a good job of educating those who don't know.

Those who choose to remain ignorant even after hearing the truth deserve whatever they get as far as damage to their speakers, equipment, or simply never discovering what their speakers are capable of sounding like!

I never said there was anything wrong with the LSI's, but lets be realistic. You cannot expect everyone who purchases the LSI's to go on this site or even know it exists. If those who purchase LSI's were getting the correct info from where they purchased them, then they would not show up here asking the same question every week.

Around here, the only source for LSI's ar Sound Advice (Tweeter), with only Denon receivers. Those who shop there for the most part do not know audio, 4 ohms, watts etc...Neither do their sales staff.

If they spend big bucks on an LSi system with matching AVR, they would be pissed if the AVR goes into protect mode in the middle of a movie. If they had 8 ohm speakers before, and now the LSi's will not work with their existing AVR, they will blame the speakers. Not good for Polk. The LSI's may be too good for their own good. They really need to be sold at a store that can appreciate them and know how to run them. Instead, Polk chose the mass market for these, and thus mass market sales and service.
This is Polk's failure, not the consumer.
v

cfrizz

With so much information available to consumers these days it's easy enough to do research.

Any major purchase I make, I now hit the web & do extensive research on it. I would be foolish not to.

If I was going to pay that much for a pair of speakers, I want to know everything I can about them & the company that makes them.

Again, education is the key & there is plenty of it out there to get. If you're not too lazy to be bothered doing the work.

venomclan

cfrizz wrote: »

With so much information available to consumers these days it's easy enough to do research.

Any major purchase I make, I now hit the web & do extensive research on it. I would be foolish not to.

If I was going to pay that much for a pair of speakers, I want to know everything I can about them & the company that makes them.

Again, education is the key & there is plenty of it out there to get. If you're not too lazy to be bothered doing the work.

Lazy? Americans? No way! If that was the case, they would just do a search for LSI w/AVR in the first place. Instead of us in this discussion every damn week for the last 4 years.
We should come to a concensus. If you have LSi's and want their designed high performance, get an amp. Period. It is like buying a sports car and being to cheap to buy premium octane gas.
v

cfrizz

Bingo! You & I concense perfectly V!:D

venomclan wrote: »

Lazy? Americans? No way! If that was the case, they would just do a search for LSI w/AVR in the first place. Instead of us in this discussion every damn week for the last 4 years.
We should come to a concensus. If you have LSi's and want their designed high performance, get an amp. Period. It is like buying a sports car and being to cheap to buy premium octane gas.
v

venomclan

cfrizz wrote: »

Bingo! You & I concense perfectly V!:D

About time Cathy.

dorokusai

You know what's really cool? Is when you realize that a loudspeaker will actually operate with ANY given wpc. Not everything has to be reference or concert level to sound good.

In regards to LSi, certainly, quality amplification is a benefit to ANY loudspeaker. That being said, feel free to stop by and let my lowly HT AVR drive the crap out of your LSi15 or LSi25. If need be, I'll get a pair in-house so you can flip-flop in person. Hell, bring and amp and we can have fun and argue about why none of this actually solves anything. I'll still send you and your mangina home with an excellent experience and a full stomach.

cmy330go

I have a question. Who here has actual experience driving LSi's with an AVR? Of those with experience, who had trouble, and felt that the speakers sounded inferior to RTi's, Monitor series, etc? Who had problems with their AVRs kicking off?

Those who have had trouble please state what AVR, and LSi's you were using.

Thanks