Dedicated 2CH room or not?

Ricardo

Ok; so I've got the gear that I think will stay with me for a while. Now I want to get the best out of it. Currently I have it in a spot in my finished basement, but is far from ideal.
I can use a portion of the unfinished basement as a dedicated audio room, but the biggest I could make it would be 13x10x7. I think this is too small...but I might be wrong.

Is it possible to have a decent listening room with these dimensions? My speakers are big in size and sound.
I would just need to raise one wall, and do some soundproofing (furnace just a couple feets away from that wall). With the right room treatements, do you think I could have a good audio room here?

Normanality

Absolutely! There's something to be said about an 'intimate' 2-channel setup.
I'm in an 11 x 11' x 7' room and enjoy a phenomenal nearfield sound. Just be prepared to treat the area to control reflections.

ben62670

Normanality wrote:

Absolutely! There's something to be said about an 'intimate' 2-channel setup.
I'm in an 11 x 11' x 7' room and enjoy a phenomenal nearfield sound. Just be prepared to treat the area to control reflections.

What he said. I think you'll do fine with those nice TY's, room treatment, and a nice lazyboy in the center. Maybe even one of those foot bath massager deals.
Enjoy

schwarcw

Amen! I've heard Norm's hi-end two channel in his intimate room. Even with the large speakers the image was wonderful the sound stage seemed enormous. The walls seemed to disappear.

Your 13' X 10' room would do just fine Ricardo. Like Norm said, you will have to pay attention to the acoustics. But it's easier in a small room than in a large room.

Ricardo

thanks guys, I'm feeling a little better about this. Now, I know squat about acoustics; I started reading a little about reflection, standing waves, etc and decided I don't have the time to become an expert, and I don't have the money to pay somebody to figure it out for me. I could cover all the walls and ceiling with foam or any other available product, but will probably spend more than I should, and I've read this not necessarily gives good results. Anyone knows a site/book that provides simple directions on what to do??

Shizelbs

I would go for it. Its probably smaller than ideal, but worth doing. Are you going to talk to any custom installers about wall angles, treatments, that sort of thing? Or are you just going to make a basic room with walls and power outlet?

dorokusai

Yes. I've had Magnepan 20.1 in house, was my room too small? Yes, but it was glorious.

Systems

HTrookie wrote:

Anyone knows a site/book that provides simple directions on what to do??

HT, take a look at Ethan Winers site it is just full of good info on acoustics.Reading through the articles is a very educational expierence.
If you want some more links detailing the construction of DIY acoustic panels and bass traps I can post them for you. http://www.realtraps.com/info.htm

RuSsMaN

There is a LOT to be said about a small, intimate room. The nearfield is VERY revealing. I have rooms as large as 25x18 in my whole house system. My reference 'man cave' is 11x10 with 9ft ceilings.

Do it.

Cheers,
Russ

Ricardo

Wow; I feel pumped; I'm going to go ahead and do it; just put up the wall, a carpet, and start playing around with treatments; found this site that has decent prices (I think). I'll keep you posted and will take pictures along the way.

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/

RuSsMaN

Stay away from square, 13x10 should be fine. Placement of the speakers in the room will help a lot. You can find the resonant frequency of the system and with the cabinet dimensions, place accordingly from the side and rear walls to not cancel out the quarter and half waves (bass).

Your first tweak to the walls, is damping on the wall the rig sits on. 2nd order reflections, a simple blanket or drapes will do wonders.

Cheers,
Russ

dorokusai

Room treatments are easy.

avguytx

That was one of my concerns too. I'm going to get a pair of BIG SDA's (someday) and I know my office is small for them....13 X 11 or so. But I know in the next couple of years it will be a dedicated 2-channel room where I can make it about whatever size I want. For now, it will just have to make do.

ben62670

A fellow Polkie taught me a mirror trick. Take a mirror flat against the wall, and if you can see your drivers from your listening position then this is where you should concentrate on sound panels. I was also given a good idea to cover some open cell foam with whatever kinda cloth tickles your fancy. You can also hang some heavy drapes where the reflections would be coming from.
Ben

Systems

These guys have very resonable pricing and their products are very effective. http://www.gikacoustics.com/

RuSsMaN

avguytx wrote:

That was one of my concerns too. I'm going to get a pair of BIG SDA's (someday) and I know my office is small for them....13 X 11 or so. But I know in the next couple of years it will be a dedicated 2-channel room where I can make it about whatever size I want. For now, it will just have to make do.

I ran SRS 2's in a room like yours, and by the books, the posts, the advice - it was simply too small a room. EVERY person I had demo that rig, including a long laundry list of Polk forum members, and even a VP from Polk said it was by far one of, if not THE best SDA experience they have EVER had.

You'll be JUST fine, trust me.

Cheers,
Russ

SCompRacer

schwarcw wrote:

Amen! I've heard Norm's hi-end two channel in his intimate room. Even with the large speakers the image was wonderful the sound stage seemed enormous. The walls seemed to disappear.

I'll second that!

mulveling

I've been in the process of dedicating and acoustically treating my living room for 2ch. From the research & experimentation I've done, you'll want to keep the following points near and dear:

* Treat as many first reflection points as possible
* Use broadband absorption
* Pile in as much bass trapping as you can get away with in corners and wall/floor/ceiling boundaries
* For positioning - you want your seating as far from the back wall as possible. Pile in as much broadband absorption in the back wall as possible, unless you've got a bunch of space back there (you won't at 13'). Also, bringing out your speakers at least a few feet from the front wall and side walls can do a ton of good.

The products I've found to be the best balance of performance/price/acceptable aesthetics are those from GIK Acoustics. Their 244 panel is affordable at $60 a pop, it's an excellent workhorse for most of your room treatment needs; can be used as a bass trap by straddling the vertical corners, or first reflection treatments when mounted flat on the walls. It's a good broadband absorber that's effective all the way down to around 120 Hz, IIRC. That's important because the curtains, rugs, etc. that are often recommended for treatment are almost completely useless when pitted against the extremely effective 244 panel. A curtain or rug won't effective absorb in the midrange or low frequencies, so your imaging could still be messed up. If you need a slimmer profile panel for 1st reflection points, the 242 panel is still very effective through the midrange. For bass trapping, if you need something more aesthetic than a thick 5.5" panel straddling the corners, GIK makes a tri-trap that looks better and is probably a bit more effective (supposedly down to 50Hz), but at nearly twice the cost of a 244 panel. Anyways, you probably can't go wrong getting a pack of the 244 and/or 242 panels.

Another product I've been using is the Auralex LENRD bass trap. It's a thick wedge of acoustic foam. Not as effective as the rigid fiberglass used in the GIK panels, but still effective enough to be useful (unlike the generic crap from Foam Factory they sell on Audiogon). I like these 'cause they're light and easy to velcro up into the wall/ceiling junctions. With bass trapping, the more coverage you can get, the better. LENRDs are effective down to about 90-100Hz.

I noticed a *big* difference once I got three 242 panels, two 244 panels, two tri-traps, and 8 LENRDs positioned in my room (25.5'x14.1'x9'). In the near future I'll be adding a couple more trip-traps, many more LENRDs, and possibly some Auralex panels for the ceiling 1st reflection point. I've had a taste of how important treatments are, and I'm going to put more money into them before I consider upgrading my preamp & source.

The HTS forum here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-acoustics/ is a good resource for researching acoustic treatments; also a couple manufcturers (GIK & RealTraps) frequent that forum and lend advice.

Good luck! A treated, dedicated 2ch room is the best investment you can make in hifi! The typical untreated room has so many significant peaks & dips below 200Hz that it's nigh imposible to hear what your speakers actually sound like. For a while, the only way for me to hear accurate bass was with high-end headphones or in my friend's dedicated room. You may be in for a pleasant surprise

Ricardo

Thanks for all the advice.

Mulveling, great write up; I need to get my read on

Early B.

HTrookie wrote:

Ok; so I've got the gear that I think will stay with me for a while. Now I want to get the best out of it. Currently I have it in a spot in my finished basement, but is far from ideal.

HT -- why is your current setup far from ideal? What are the dimensions of this room? What do you feel is missing?

Ricardo

Early B. wrote:

HT -- why is your current setup far from ideal? What are the dimensions of this room? What do you feel is missing?

Room is approx. 25x20, but where I have the gear is not convenient at all; sweet spot is a couple feet from the bar (picture will help understand), and I'm sure there are bad reflections there; To the right of the room there's a walk out, so there's lots of traffic in front of the speakers; not good having a bunch of 12 year olds running there. The area in front of the left speaker is where my poker table goes; I need to move it in and out, and when there's people sitting at the table I always need to be telling them to be careful...chairs have wheels and more than once someone has bumped a speaker. So, I really need "my own" place. I would like to be able to have a bigger room than 13x10, but I'm sure with the right treatments it will be ok.

halo

Good luck Ricardo!

This is something I need to start looking into myself

Early B.

HTrookie wrote:

Room is approx. 25x20, but where I have the gear is not convenient at all; sweet spot is a couple feet from the bar (picture will help understand), and I'm sure there are bad reflections there; To the right of the room there's a walk out, so there's lots of traffic in front of the speakers; not good having a bunch of 12 year olds running there. The area in front of the left speaker is where my poker table goes; I need to move it in and out, and when there's people sitting at the table I always need to be telling them to be careful...chairs have wheels and more than once someone has bumped a speaker. So, I really need "my own" place. I would like to be able to have a bigger room than 13x10, but I'm sure with the right treatments it will be ok.

Wow. The pic says it all. Get your own room, dammit!

Are you gonna place the speakers along the long wall (13') or the short wall (10')?

Ricardo

Early B. wrote:

Wow. The pic says it all. Get your own room, dammit!

Are you gonna place the speakers along the long wall (13') or the short wall (10')?

I have no idea yet!!!!! Initially i'd think that in the short wall, but I'll place outlets in both to have the flexibility of swapping them.

mulveling

HTrookie wrote:

I have no idea yet!!!!! Initially i'd think that in the short wall, but I'll place outlets in both to have the flexibility of swapping them.

Conventional wisdom would say place them along the short wall - that typically alleviates some bass issues by allowing more space between seating position/back wall and speakers/front wall. Of course with acoustics, conventional wisdom always takes a back seat to just trying things out!

Another product I'm thinking of trying for my room is the Auralex Metro Diffusors - the hope is that by placing them on the ceiling I'll make the ceiling sound somewhat "higher" without over-absorbing in the room.

Ricardo

Mulveling, I saw you mentioned foam as "crap".......foam was what I had in mind for absorption and corner bass traps, from this place (or others..there are several):

Absorption:
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/foams/alphawedge.asp

Bass:
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/traps/alphacorner.asp

Any thoughts??

mulveling

HTrookie wrote:

Mulveling, I saw you mentioned foam as "crap".......foam was what I had in mind for absorption and corner bass traps, from this place (or others..there are several):

Absorption:
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/foams/alphawedge.asp

Bass:
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/traps/alphacorner.asp

Any thoughts??

Foam can be quite effective, but not all foam is created equal. There can be vast disparities in broadband absorption and fire ratings depending on the specific formula in question. The Auralex stuff is proven & measured to be safe & effective. Not as effective as rigid fiberglass (Owens Corning 703, 705 etc), but still very effective. IIRC Ethan Winer (owner of RealTraps) measured his bass traps against Auralex LENRDs (Auralex foam) and "bargain" knock-off LENRDs from another company and the bargain brand was almost completely ineffective compared to the others. The claims made by the company would indicate otherwise, which is pretty shady - and who's gonna trust any fire rating claims made by said manufacturer? I don't think that company was Acoustical Solutions, IIRC it was FoamFactory, but you might want to ask on HTS forum if anyone knows how their foam compares to Auralex. Looking at the prices for their wedge traps, they don't look any less expensive than the comparable Auralex LENRDs and I'd go with a known quality...plus the LENRDs are available in more colors (burgundy looks quite nice IMO)

Of course, if you want to DIY, you could do a lot with a heap of 2" thick Owens Corning Personally I didn't want to deal with that mess. So it's GIK and Auralex for me.

Normanality

Interesting Mulveling.......that's exactly what I have in my small room.

I use (4) GIK 244 panels and (8) Auralex LENRD corner traps.

Having the setup not symmetrical with the room helps too.

VR3

HTRookie

Have you tried your Tylers toed in? Im curious what you think of them pointing straight out vs Toed in.

mulveling

Normanality wrote:

Interesting Mulveling.......that's exactly what I have in my small room.

I use (4) GIK 244 panels and (8) Auralex LENRD corner traps.

Having the setup not symmetrical with the room helps too.

Those 244s are great, aren't they? Probably even more beneficial in a small room. You can just put one ear up next to them when music is playing and hear how effective they are. I didn't think about setting them up asymmetrically - now that I think about it, that might work great with the bass traps. Do you also have the 244s set up asymmetrically?

Perhaps adding in some diffusors would have a similar effect. I'm kinda lucky in that my kitchen already acts as a diffusor for the back wall

Ricardo

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

HTRookie

Have you tried your Tylers toed in? Im curious what you think of them pointing straight out vs Toed in.

They are toed in, just a little bit; If i had to guess I'd say 5 degrees. I will try them toed in at different angles. I like experimenting with this, and I generally prefer less toed in; IMO provides a better soundstage.