Caps, resistors, RDO's, and wires=Happy SDA's

ben62670

Just did some work on my SDA-SRS's today, and the results were very impressive. Everything was better.
Solens, mills, RDO's, and AudioQuest wires.
I keep feeling like every time I do an upgrade that oh it can't get much better than this without spending a fortune. It just keeps getting better and better. I only did one side, and my friend and I both noticed a good difference in SQ between the two. I know the "blanket coming off" has been used a lot, but that is the best description. I am basically reiterating what many others have said about the mods. I just feel that these old beauties deserve to be treated well, and shown off:)

Ben

jakelm

Congrats Ben

An upgrade wouldnt be an upgrade without an upgrade!!:p

I'm tackling my 7b's xovers as we speak:D

Jake

ben62670

Let me know how it goes. I have 5's and they sound incredible. Guess I'm going to have to do them too, and make them more incredabler:D

I guess I should do the second SRS first though:p

ben62670

I was just listening some more, and I think it was F1nut who said the old caps had artifacts. Like some of the signal is released a little late. I am noticing that about the speaker that isn't done yet.

heiney9

jakelm wrote:

Congrats Ben

An upgrade wouldnt be an upgrade without an upgrade!!:p

I'm tackling my 7b's xovers as we speak:D

Jake

That is good news Ben .

Jake how is the upgrade going? I'm going to be doing my 5b's in the next couple of weeks. It seems the 7's are similar as far as the actual size of the x-over and terminal cup. What part values are you using? I have the schematic but the 34uF is not an easy value to find

I'm going to use Solen's; (1) 33uF and (1) 12uF and a mills resistor per x-over. The original spec calls for 34 and 12uF, but Solen doesn't make a 34uF and I don't think using a 1uF and a 33uF in series will really make that much diff. In talking with Jesse the 33uF Solen is well within the tolerence range of the original 34uF so I should be ok. I was going to do (2) 17uF in parallel so the charge/discharge was the same, but Solen doesn't make those either.

Are you upgrading internal wiring? If so, what size are you using. I'm thinking 18g but I'd like to use 16g if it can be soldered without too much trouble. Not sure how big the holes are in the x-over board.

Show us some pics and perhaps a bit of a write-up. Any tips would be helpful, been a long time since I pulled out the soldering gun .

H9

F1nut

Not quite right. I said the using bypass caps with high grade poly, film/foil, etc. caps causes artifacts.

The problem with aging electrolytic caps is they lose their ability to charge/discharge as they did when new, which will result in an overall degraded sound.

Ricardo

Ben, if you like how they sound right after upgrading the x-overs, just wait to hear how they will sound after 100 hours. It keeps getting better and better.

ben62670

I wouldn't worry about a 1uf difference either. I have seen some post here where the originals were off by almost 10uf at that rating.

As for breaking them in I hear ya. I can't wait!

So F1 what is the final word on bypass caps? Keep them, or toss them. (I kept mine)

Ben

F1nut

Ben, that's up to you.

At first, I found them kinda cool, but after awhile the artifacts became quite annoying to my ears.

Congrats on your improvements, enjoy!

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote:

That is good news Ben .

I was going to do (2) 17uF in series so the charge/discharge was the same, but Solen doesn't make those either.

To get to 34 uF using two 17 uf you would have to connect them in parallel, not in series....

Ricardo

I went with the bypass caps on my 3.1's, and after break in I decided to remove them; sound more natural now (as Jesse told me they would )

heiney9

HTrookie wrote:

To get to 34 uF using two 17 uf you would have to connect them in parallel, not in series....

OOOps my bad typo. Thanks for pointing that out

jakelm

When looking at PE for caps, I see about 10 diffferent ones. Dayton Solen ..etc. I know all caps to the same thing, is the difference in these caps just the longevity or is there a particular reason why you use Solen for one part and polyfilm, metalized or electrolytic for another?

ben62670

I have absolutely no idea, but I have read a ton of times that nearly everyone uses the mills. I am kinda a freak when it comes to working on my speakers. I would have a little Demon running around in my head saying you should have used the mills ,you should have used the mills ,you should have used the mills. Now that I said that I did use solen caps instead of sonicaps because of the large monetary difference between the two. For $7 I don't want to hear voices till I turn the stereo on :eek:

I'm not Paul Harvey
Good Day

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote:

OOOps my bad typo. Thanks for pointing that out

I made a mistake when upgrading the 1.2's; soldered the resistors in parallel, when I should have done series; luckily someone here saw it in the pictures and pointed me in the right direction

ben62670

jakelm wrote:

When looking at PE for caps, I see about 10 diffferent ones. Dayton Solen ..etc. I know all caps to the same thing, is the difference in these caps just the longevity or is there a particular reason why you use Solen for one part and polyfilm, metalized or electrolytic for another?

I have no idea on that branding question either, but I do know many use the solens all the generics, and I know that lots of people who wouldn't use anything but sonicaps. As for me hearing any difference in these different brands I am oblivious. I just trust many years of fellow Polkies that have way more experience than I do;)

jakelm

Now when your talking resistors. Parallel is side by side or one after the other? I know paralell in speaker terms is side by side.

ben62670

jakelm wrote:

Now when your talking resistors. Parallel is side by side or one after the other? I know paralell in speaker terms is side by side.

yes no yes

jakelm

HTrookie wrote:

To get to 34 uF using two 17 uf you would have to connect them in parallel, not in series....

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But you wouldn't have to run them in series?

Two 4ohm speakers ran in series would produce a 8 ohm load. So two 17uF would produce a 34uf in series? Or is it different for caps?

Ricardo

Capacitors: In parallel adds the values of each cap:

Resistors: in series adds the values of each resistor

Edit: links not working; look in the first post here:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37333&highlight=crossover

jakelm

HTrookie wrote:

Capacitors: In parallel adds the values of each cap:

Resistors: in series adds the values of each resistor

Edit: links not working; look in the first post here:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37333&highlight=crossover

Beautiful HT, so wireing caps is different...Thanks

heiney9

jakelm wrote:

When looking at PE for caps, I see about 10 diffferent ones. Dayton Solen ..etc. I know all caps to the same thing, is the difference in these caps just the longevity or is there a particular reason why you use Solen for one part and polyfilm, metalized or electrolytic for another?

Capacitors are used in many thing electronic. Each type has it's strenghts and weakness. Some are great in the signal path other's aren't. Caps in the signal path can dramatically change the sound of an audio signal. It's imperative you understand how the cap is being used in the audio circuit in order to make the correct choices. I'm not going to go into too much detail, but choosing the proper cap for a x-over is important. here is a quick example I found concerning PS bypass caps, just to give you an idea (they are comparing 2 types of ELNA caps and 1 type of Black Gate cap). Those that are into speaker building/tweaking can give you a much more concrete answer. Solens give the best performance for the $$$. I'm sure the Dayton caps are good as well. The Jantzen caps for x-overs get pretty high marks as well.

WHICH AUDIO CAPACITOR?

Which capacitor to use is difficult to determine without actually trying. It depends on too many factors. To hear the potential of a certain part, it's often nessecary to change other parts too. Experimenting with different combinations is a more solid way to lift a design to a higher level. In principle the original music signal has to be preserved as much as possible, but it's difficult to tell which parts do. For analysing a music signal (harmonic structures changing in time), our ears are still the most useful instrument. But we're all calibrated differently. To some a SILMIC adds color and warmth and a Black Gate FK sounds neutral. To others a SILMIC sounds neutral because it exactly reproduces natural colors and warmth from the recording, a Black Gate FK sounds more 'hifi' to them, making the signal more pulsed, peaky (giving attack) and too clean (filtering out natural timbres).
Often a combination of different (high quality) capacitors in the right places gives the best result. Best thing is to try yourself and trust your ears.
Still, we want to mention some general characteristics as a rough guideline (of course these are our personal, biased, subjective experiences). These characters apply for capacitors used either in the signal path or in the power supply (for digital different rules apply, but there are simularities as well).
Lower voltage versions of a capacitor can offer more refinement (it's faster, gives more presence towards the mid-highs).

The SILMIC II is best for reproducing different timbres, natural colors and warmth in a recording. It offers most presence in the low-mid range with lots of texture (tangible). Bass is round and warm, the mid and highrange are very refined, 'silky', quiet, but with lots of openess (more open than CERAFINE, less open than Black Gate FK).

The CERAFINE is also very good for reproducing different timbres, natural colors, but has a more direct sound than SILMIC (less direct than Black Gate FK). Bass is round and warm, the midrange has most presence and the high range is lively.

The Black Gate FK has the most open and clean sound, with the main presence in the high range. It sounds thinner, offers somewhat less texture and timbre. It offers most pulse, attack in both the low, mid and high ranges.

jakelm

Good info there..Thanks Heiney

ben62670

Are the Demons talking to you. Even though the speaks are very old they still are incredible. Treat um like a Lady

jakelm

ben62670 wrote:

Are the Demons talking to you. Even though the speaks are very old they still are incredible. Treat um like a Lady

The only thing they say to me is "Its not good enough you cheep skate"

heiney9

jakelm wrote:

The only thing they say to me is "Its not good enough you cheep skate"

LOL, but you have to keep a perspective based on what you are putting them in. I'd easily spend the money on a more expensive cap than the Solen's but the 5b's are only going to be so good and they are in a 2nd system, etc...... Same goes for the 7's. The thing is even the mid-line caps like Solens will make big improvements over the old (worn out) stock parts. There have been some pretty great advances in caps in 15-20 years. .

A cheep skate would only spend like a buck fifty on replacement parts .

H9

jakelm

Those 7's are my main left and right channel. I listen to them every night. I'm hoping to get 2 more and stack them.

So yes..I am willing to spend alittle money on them.

ben62670

jakelm wrote:

The only thing they say to me is "Its not good enough you cheep skate"

Part Number Description Qty. Ordered Qty. Shipped Price Ext. Price
027-572 SOLEN 12.0uF-400VDC POLYPROPY .. 2 2 $5.04 $10.08
027-582 SOLEN 20.0uF-400VDC POLYPROPY .. 4 4 $6.66 $26.64
005-2.5 MILLS 2.5 OHM 12W NON-INDUCTI .. 4 4 $3.50 $14.00
US Postal Priority Mail $5.04
Subtotal: $55.76
LOL
I have had many times in my life where this was more than I could afford. The above info was my order (yours would be less do to 2 less caps). I got earlier today + new RDO tweets. I plan on keeping my speaks a long time. To save $20 on generic isn't worth it to me. I have to eat generic food now because of my hobby, but the sound difference is worth trimming a little fat for a week to get these things. I am sure that you would hear a difference in new generic components, but I think long term. I am guessing your young, but if you have kids, and you pass on daddy's speakers to them they may stay with you a long time.
My .02

heiney9

jakelm wrote:

Those 7's are my main left and right channel. I listen to them every night. I'm hoping to get 2 more and stack them.

So yes..I am willing to spend alittle money on them.

You had to open the can of worms called stacking :eek: . If you are going to stack speakers you will pretty much undo any benefits you just got from rebuilding the x-overs. IMHO, stacking is never good for imaging and can/does cause all kinds of phase issues as well as possible cancelling of some frequencies. Is messes up the soundstage cues as well as imaging and generally muddies everything up. I'm hardcore 2-speaker 2-channel and that's just my POV.

Try and experiment you might like it, but it rarely results in a realistic sound especially since the whole idea of upgrading x-overs is to improve imaging and cleaning up the audio signal, getting more snap and depth and more natural decay of instruments and perhaps a bit more openess and air around a recording etc. All completely messed up by adding a second pair of speakers.

H9

jakelm

H9 I will have to dissagree. My father has stacked 7a's. A remarkable soundstage if I must say. I understand what you are saying but, from what I have heard first hand, muddiness and lack of soundstage was not the case.

heiney9

jakelm wrote:

H9 I will have to dissagree. My father has stacked 7a's. A remarkable soundstage if I must say. I understand what you are saying but, from what I have heard first hand, muddiness and lack of soundstage was not the case.

Fair enough.........just not my cup of tea so to speak. Have fun, that's all that matters.