External DAC or not with Denon 3910

reeltrouble1

Without doubt when I hooked the Parasound Ultra 2000 DAC to an inexpensive juke box the highs were instantly smoother and the mids were more liquid. The music more enjoyable.

I suppose this only makes sense that the poorer the transport DAC the better a seperate DAC will make your system sound.

RT1

steveinaz

venomclan wrote:

Steve, did you a/b the Bel Canto Dac 1.1, or the Dac 2?
Venom

Not sure, maybe Wes (I-SIG) will chime in. He still has it.

steveinaz

reeltrouble1 wrote:

I suppose this only makes sense that the poorer the transport DAC the better a seperate DAC will make your system sound.
RT1

Agree, a good external DAC can stretch your CDP dollar for sure, though the DAC's sound best with a transport that can exploit it's full potential.

hearingimpared

steveinaz wrote:

Agree, a good external DAC can stretch your CDP dollar for sure, though the DAC's sound best with a transport that can exploit it's full potential.

Bingo! and trying to get a good transport (just that) for less than an arm and a leg is hard to find. I remember when I was searching for the a good transport months ago, I saw the one that Mad Max has (Theta Data Basic II) and it was going for like $800 or $900+. That to me is a little high for just a transport. I checked with Underwood and they did up the transport for the Music Hall CD 25.2 for $1200, again too much money for a just a transport. My thinking may be skewed here but if I can get a good performance from the transport of a cheapy DVD or CDP with the Marigo mat and the Timbre DAC I think I am doing okay. The only thing I think I need to look for using a cheapy player is consistency.

steveinaz

If you wanted to go econo-mode, and still have a very respectable set-up, I'd get a Cambridge Azur/Music Hall/Rotel/ and a DAC.

joeparaski

I got my 3910 hooked up and it sounds great. Everything seems to be a little more clear and detailed.

I then tried to hook it up to the MSB dac and all I got was sound best described as "quick little pulses"...like the signal is not getting through or it's the "wrong" signal. I tried my cd player through the MSB and it works fine, so the MSB is ok.

I guess I'll have to start reading the Denon manual. But if any of you have got a quick remedy for this, or some setting in the Denon that needs to be changed, let me know.

Oh, one other thing.....I switch around rca cables and toslink without shutting down, although I lower the volume all the way down. Am I playing with fire? So far there has been no adverse effects and of course it is much quicker to test components this way.

Joe

hearingimpared

joeparaski wrote:

I got my 3910 hooked up and it sounds great. Everything seems to be a little more clear and detailed.

I then tried to hook it up to the MSB dac and all I got was sound best described as "quick little pulses"...like the signal is not getting through or it's the "wrong" signal. I tried my cd player through the MSB and it works fine, so the MSB is ok.

I guess I'll have to start reading the Denon manual. But if any of you have got a quick remedy for this, or some setting in the Denon that needs to be changed, let me know.

Oh, one other thing.....I switch around rca cables and toslink without shutting down, although I lower the volume all the way down. Am I playing with fire? So far there has been no adverse effects and of course it is much quicker to test components this way.

Joe

Joe are you sure you have the digital out of the 3910 going to the DAC. It sounds like you are connecting the RCA analog outs of the 3910 to the DAC, if you are it will not work. You have to bypass the 3910's DAC by connecting directly from the transport which is the digital out.

Emlyn

Got to switch a DVD player out of Bitstream digital mode and into PCM to use it with an external DAC. It's in the setup menu under digital output. Otherwise you just get noise.

Best to turn the Denon off when switching RCA's. Not a problem with toslink though. The bigger risk you run when not powering down is shorting your preamp.

joeparaski

Joe, I am using the digital out. Emlyn, you may have the answer to my problem, I'll check it out....thanks.

Joe

Lowell_M

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Without doubt when I hooked the Parasound Ultra 2000 DAC to an inexpensive juke box the highs were instantly smoother and the mids were more liquid. The music more enjoyable.

I suppose this only makes sense that the poorer the transport DAC the better a seperate DAC will make your system sound.

RT1

I just experience this in a somewhat cobbled way. I just picked up a Nakamichi CA-5 pre-amp for my budding 2 channel system and wanted to try it out. So, I connected it to my cheapo CD player and the sound was detailed but hellishly bright. So, in need of a better way to demo, I connected the pre-amp to the Tape-out on my H/K AVR so that the DAC in the HK was doing the work. What a huge difference between the DAC in the Cheapo CD player and the DAC in the HK. The warm HK sound that I like was back, the the Nak preamp provided even more detailed sound with better separation and three dimensional soundstage. Just awesome.

So, again, questioning these things keeps causing me to spend more money, but..... in the synergy of everything in the rig, how important is the transport itself that is simply outputing a stream of 1's and 0's if you use a decent external DAC? Is the point of diminishing returns quite low for CD transports?

steveinaz

a_mattison wrote:

Is the point of diminishing returns quite low for CD transports?

It's all relative. How much are you willing to part with? If you get a transport (or CDP to use as a transport) look for things like a beefy power supply transformer, solid construction, a good disc transport, and low jitter. Of course look for the interface if it matters (coax/toslink/XLR). If you have a good DAC, I don't think you'll need to 2nd mortgage the house on a transport. My CEC was $600, and has XLR digital out--I love it. There are others out there as well. 3 of my favorites are the Rotel RCD-1072, Music Hall CD 25.2, and anything by Musical Fidelity. Solid build, good power supply's, low jitter (especially the MF) etc.

hearingimpared

steveinaz wrote:

It's all relative. How much are you willing to part with? If you get a transport (or CDP to use as a transport) look for things like a beefy power supply transformer, solid construction, a good disc transport, and low jitter. Of course look for the interface if it matters (coax/toslink/XLR). If you have a good DAC, I don't think you'll need to 2nd mortgage the house on a transport. My CEC was $600, and has XLR digital out--I love it. There are others out there as well. 3 of my favorites are the Rotel RCD-1072, Music Hall CD 25.2, and anything by Musical Fidelity. Solid build, good power supply's, low jitter (especially the MF) etc.

Steve, I spoke with Wally at Underwood sometime ago because I was thinking of buying the Music Hall CD 25.2. When I told him that I had the Timbre DAC he told me that I should get the CD 25.2 with the Underwood transport modification/upgrade, the cost > $1200 plus shipping. I still can't see paying that kind of money for a transport. I would really like to A/B different transports especially a cheapy transport like Oppo against a good transport paired with my DAC to see if I can hear a difference. Have you ever done one of these type comparisons?

joeparaski

Man what a NON-user friendly manual that comes with the 3910. I'm not real good at this HT stuff, there's just such a dizzying amount of freakin' settings to contend with.

I can't seem to get War of the Worlds to play through the surround speakers. Can't even hear the damn dialogue unless the pre is on by-pass.

And does anybody have the cd Bare Naked Ladies...the song Take It Easy.....that damn song sounds like **** whether I play it through the 3910 or my cd player, is it the recording or my gear? Other cd's sound a whole lot better than this POS!

Can anybody recommend a good recording to use as a "reference".

And yes.....I'm F'N frustrated as all hell!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The fact that I don't know ANYONE near me who can help me with this f'n setup doesn't help. And it's not like I have a ton of time on my hands to figure out the f'n crap!

Why can't they make a good f'n dvd player that you just put the f'n movie in and sit back and watch instead of f'ing through 2 million settings?

Joe

hearingimpared

joeparaski wrote:

Man what a NON-user friendly manual that comes with the 3910. I'm not real good at this HT stuff, there's just such a dizzying amount of freakin' settings to contend with.

I can't seem to get War of the Worlds to play through the surround speakers. Can't even hear the damn dialogue unless the pre is on by-pass.

And does anybody have the cd Bare Naked Ladies...the song Take It Easy.....that damn song sounds like **** whether I play it through the 3910 or my cd player, is it the recording or my gear? Other cd's sound a whole lot better than this POS!

Can anybody recommend a good recording to use as a "reference".

And yes.....I'm F'N frustrated as all hell!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The fact that I don't know ANYONE near me who can help me with this f'n setup doesn't help. And it's not like I have a ton of time on my hands to figure out the f'n crap!

Why can't they make a good f'n dvd player that you just put the f'n movie in and sit back and watch instead of f'ing through 2 million settings?

Joe

Someone please help this poor guy, I can feel the heat coming through my cable modem. Sorry Joe HT is far from my cup of tea.

joeparaski

WOW pretty amazing....all you folks with Denon 3910's and no one has ANY suggestions or can offer any help here? I guess I've also got you Home Theatre geniuses stumped.

Oh I'm sure that I'll "eventually" figure it out, I just tried to save a bit of time that I have so little of, to figure this out, so I can sit and listen instead of going nuts trying to figure it out.

It's sort of like computers.....you can spend hours trying to figure out a problem and then some techie comes along and solves it in 30 seconds.

Joe

TN_Polk_Lover

Joe, you might want to go to avsforum.com. They have a pretty extensive hardware section, including one section devoted just to CD Players / DVD Players. I love this Polk Forum, but I do some reading also at avsforum.com.

Robert

steveinaz

hearingimpared wrote:

I would really like to A/B different transports especially a cheapy transport like Oppo against a good transport paired with my DAC to see if I can hear a difference. Have you ever done one of these type comparisons?

I did do a Denon 2910 vs my CEC CD-3300 as transports comparison. Ran both into my Benchmark DAC. The differences were subtle, but there. I ended up keeping my CEC for CD duty, and the Denon does strictly video duty.

The Music Hall 25.2 is only $599 at AudioAdvisor....

hearingimpared

steveinaz wrote:

The Music Hall 25.2 is only $599 at AudioAdvisor....

Thanks for the info.

Yes and even less expensive elsewhere but when Wally Underwood starts his mods the price starts jumping up. . .e. g. just replacing the op amps and caps and some other components, it costs over $800; the transport upgrade pushes the price up around $1200.

Funny thing here is if you read Sally R.'s reveiw in TAS she give high marks to the MH 25.2 but she also put a $350 power cord on the CDP and said it really began to sing . . . why in the hell would I buy a CDP for $600 pay an additional, more than half, for a power cord to make it sound better. Why not buy a well made full blown CDP for $1k or a little more even. Sometimes I think people are drunk when they are doing reviews.

cfrizz

ROFLMAO!!! Sometimes the amount of bs spouted around this hobby is just lunacy! Or people just have too much damned money for their own good!:eek:

hearingimpared wrote:

Thanks for the info.

Yes and even less expensive elsewhere but when Wally Underwood starts his mods the price starts jumping up. . .e. g. just replacing the op amps and caps and some other components, it costs over $800; the transport upgrade pushes the price up around $1200.

Funny thing here is if you read Sally R.'s reveiw in TAS she give high marks to the MH 25.2 but she also put a $350 power cord on the CDP and said it really began to sing . . . why in the hell would I buy a CDP for $600 pay an additional, more than half, for a power cord to make it sound better. Why not buy a well made full blown CDP for $1k or a little more even. Sometimes I think people are drunk when they are doing reviews.

steveinaz

hearingimpared wrote:

Thanks for the info.

Yes and even less expensive elsewhere but when Wally Underwood starts his mods the price starts jumping up. . .e. g. just replacing the op amps and caps and some other components, it costs over $800; the transport upgrade pushes the price up around $1200.

If I were using a Music Hall 25.2 in "transport mode" only, I wouldn't do any mods. Most of the mods, I would imagine, would be done to improve the analog output--when used as a transport, you'd never "feel" the benefits of any of these.

With the 25.2 all the good things are there already, phillips transport, beefy power supply, rock solid build, excellent connectors, etc--things that are important for a transport.

Just something to consider...