External DAC or not with Denon 3910

joeparaski

I now own a Denon 3910 and I've got an MSB Link Dac III with seperate power base that is arriving in a couple of days. Is the DAC in the MSB better than the built-in DAC in the3910? Aside from a listening test, specification-wise, which DAC is better?

3910 owners....do you use a seperate DAC?

Joe

steveinaz

It'll probably be a close competition, more of a difference in "character" of the sound. I run a Denon 2910, and have run it through my Benchmark DAC for a time. Through the DAC the 2910 was a little more articulate, deeper soundstage, and tighter/cleaner bass. The 2910 on it's own was warmer sounding, but bass was a little flabby and treble not nearly as grain-free.

I realize this isn't the direct comparison you were looking for, but I think it demonstrates that it will come down to A/B'ing the setup and see which tonal character you prefer----I suspect that if you like more articulation, you'll prefer the external DAC; if you like a warmer/richer sound, you'll prefer the 3910 stand-alone.

cstpeter

I experienced a big improvement going with the PS Audio DAC out of a Denon 2900 (the older 3910). But like Steve said, this isn't a direct comparison and it will come down to a direct A/B with your gear.

John K.

Joe, as shown in this table of receiver and player components, the 3910 uses the DSD1796 DAC made by Texas Instruments in their Burr-Brown Division. If you click on DSD1796 you'll get brief specs and other info(you can then click there for the full data sheet). From the specs, including a 123dB dynamic range, it's clear that the capabilities of the 1796 exceed the requirements of all material which might be played, and no other DAC can provide any audible improvement . You'll also note the price, and typically Denon would be able to get these in very large quantities for about $2 each.

So, as is commonly the case these days, the particular DAC which the manufacturer has specified can more than meet all design requirements, and should be a non-issue for the audio consumer. If there's any difference you can rest assured that the DAC has nothing to do with it.

reeltrouble1

Anti Hi-Fi Audio Insurgent sighting.

RT1

Lowell_M

.... As I proudly put on my " "Cables don't matter" - John K " T-shirt.

I may be ordering a new shirt that says.. "DAC's don't mean smack"

cstpeter

John K. wrote:

Joe, as shown in this table of receiver and player components, the 3910 uses the DSD1796 DAC made by Texas Instruments in their Burr-Brown Division. If you click on DSD1796 you'll get brief specs and other info(you can then click there for the full data sheet). From the specs, including a 123dB dynamic range, it's clear that the capabilities of the 1796 exceed the requirements of all material which might be played, and no other DAC can provide any audible improvement . You'll also note the price, and typically Denon would be able to get these in very large quantities for about $2 each.

So, as is commonly the case these days, the particular DAC which the manufacturer has specified can more than meet all design requirements, and should be a non-issue for the audio consumer. If there's any difference you can rest assured that the DAC has nothing to do with it.

Just curious: How does this post help Joe? Are you actually saying an external DAC won't make a difference (never mind the output stage, power supply, etc.)? Or are you just trying to make a point?

Joe, I recommned you try out an external DAC. As I posted, I noticed a huge difference.

Serendipity

I would try an external DAC, but be warned that the Denon's DACs might even be better.

steveinaz

Agree with JohnK, just buy a Sony walkman to use as a source and be done with it---bits is bits, right? sheeeesh.

It's not just the DAC's, it's the implementation and final analog output stage. It's like saying all 350 cubic inch V-8's have the same horsepower---non-sense.

heiney9

first part................NM, no use blowing a gasket over this. :rolleyes:



Joe, let your ears decide if you can 1) hear a difference 2) if the difference you hear is what you prefer over what you have 3) DON'T EVER listen to JohnK and his wheel barrow full of manure.

To JohnK. read my sig and then re-read it again. I appreciate the subtleties in music and audio you don't even acknowledge they exsist.

Good day to you!!!!

heiney9

appadv wrote:

I would try an external DAC, but be warned that the Denon's DACs might even be better.

Not likely for the units discussed here so far. The Denon probably sounds pretty good on it's own, but a well designed and implemented outboard Dac is usually better or atleast different in good ways, one has to decide with their own ears if it suits them. Some people don't like as much "truth" in their music or like things a bit bloated and bass heavy. Generally a well designed dac will tighten up the bass, improve the soundstage depth and realism, add some air around the recording (which is already there) and generally make things sound more realistic. That is unless the recording is lacking, which so many pop type recording are.

The biggest thing I noticed was EVERY single cd I played sounded different, good and bad. Before adding the dac many things just sounded the same, sure I heard differences between crappy recordings and stellar recordings, but I was missing the subtle nuances of the recordings (again good and bad). Now every single recording stands on it's own and has it's own characteristics for good and for bad.

H9

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote:

the subtle nuances of the recordings

Finally...a definition for those orgasmic milliseconds when you experience what no one else in the room seem to hear, but makes this whole damn expensive hobby worth every penny.....

rskarvan

JohnK, when it comes to how good music sounds, you can rest assured that the DAC has EVERYTHING to do with it. Afterall, everything before the DAC is just software. Everything after the DAC is just signal processing. The DAC is the only component that actually generates the music that we all appreciate.

dkg999

Good to know that when John K shows up I can serve him Boone's Farm wine, because it certainly meets all the necessary design requirements

Midnite Mick

rskarvan wrote:

JohnK, when it comes to how good music sounds, you can rest assured that the DAC has EVERYTHING to do with it. Afterall, everything before the DAC is just software. Everything after the DAC is just signal processing. The DAC is the only component that actually generates the music that we all appreciate.

I wouldn't have thought this but have been leaning this way. Makes me wonder why buy high end players at all. Seems to me high quality can be obtained less expensively with transport and DAC.

Heiney.....love the sig. I didn't notice it before

Thanks,
Mike

tonyb

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Anti Hi-Fi Audio Insurgent sighting.

RT1

Man...I love this place

hearingimpared

Oppo HD 970, digital cable out, w/digital cable to Timbre DAC, Timbre DAC to Spectral preamp, preamp to speakers via bi-amping, brings a smile to my face EVERY TIME!!!

It's all in the DAC man, it's all in the DAC. . .and. . . .it's all good brother, it's all good!

H9 love you sig.

hearingimpared

tonyb wrote:

Man...I love this place

Me too!!!

Midnite Mick

However, wouldn't the one spec that a DAC couldn't improve is the dynamic range? Just asking as I thought that this was the limitation of the Oppo as a source from other people's comments. I guess I could check but I am lazy

Thanks,
Mike

joeparaski

Thank you for your thoughts on this subject guys. I checked UPS tracking and my MSB Link DAC III is now in Syracuse. I've got a day off tomorrow, so if it comes in, I'll set it up with the Denon and see how it sounds before and after and with and without the DAC.

I wish I had more time to play with this stuff. I'm still doing those crazy hours. This is freakin' weird, I work 80 hours to pay for audio gear that I can't get to hear much because I work 80 hours.

Joe

dorokusai

I don't use a DAC with the 3910 but then again its in the HT. I have never had any personal interest in DAC's and have heard many of them. I think they're great for when you have a POS source but its not a list topper for me.

reeltrouble1

There certainly is much more to consider than the just the conversion. Each interface within the chain can only degrade the signal or not.

RT1

hearingimpared

Midnite Mick wrote:

However, wouldn't the one spec that a DAC couldn't improve is the dynamic range? Just asking as I thought that this was the limitation of the Oppo as a source from other people's comments. I guess I could check but I am lazy

Thanks,
Mike

The only thing I use from the Oppo is its transport which seems to be pretty good. The question is, will it stay consistant and for how long? Also don't forget I use that Marigo mat.

hearingimpared

joeparaski wrote:

Thank you for your thoughts on this subject guys. I checked UPS tracking and my MSB Link DAC III is now in Syracuse. I've got a day off tomorrow, so if it comes in, I'll set it up with the Denon and see how it sounds before and after and with and without the DAC.

I wish I had more time to play with this stuff. I'm still doing those crazy hours. This is freakin' weird, I work 80 hours to pay for audio gear that I can't get to hear much because I work 80 hours.

Joe

Does this ring a bell from a movie . . . CATCHA TWENTY TWOA, CATCHA TWENTY TWOA!

Systems

steveinaz wrote:

It's not just the DAC's, it's the implementation and final analog output stage.

Yep,what steve said.

SCompRacer

dkg999 wrote:

.....I can serve him Boone's Farm wine,...

Guess it will have to be Boone's cause they don't make Ripple no more.


I don't need no diamond ring
I don't need no Cadillac car
Just want to drink my Ripple wine
Down in the Lightnin' Bar
Down in the Lightnin' Bar

venomclan

Let us know your findings Joe. I have had good success with a Denon 2900 and the Bel Canto Dac 1.1. The Dac added a little more nuance and air to the music. Bass tightened up also. Less smear. I find that the Dac makes much more of a difference than the transport. imho.
Venom

hearingimpared

venomclan wrote:

Let us know your findings Joe. I have had good success with a Denon 2900 and the Bel Canto Dac 1.1. The Dac added a little more nuance and air to the music. Bass tightened up also. Less smear. I find that the Dac makes much more of a difference than the transport. imho.
Venom

I wanted to add one more thing. My Timbre DAC brings CDs one giant step closer to sounding like vinyl.:)

steveinaz

venomclan wrote:

Let us know your findings Joe. I have had good success with a Denon 2900 and the Bel Canto Dac 1.1.

The Bel Canto is an excellent DAC, I-Sig & I A/B'd a Bel Canto against my Benchmark and we struggled to hear any difference between the two. We used the same transport (CEC) with the coax out to the Bel Canto and the AES/EBU out for the Benchmark. Luckily output levels appeared to be perfectly matched, so we just used the remote on my pre to switch between them.

cstpeter

hearingimpared wrote:

I wanted to add one more thing. My Timbre DAC brings CDs one giant step closer to sounding like vinyl.:)

Word. The first thing I thought when I heard my DAC was, "This kinda sounds like my record player." Definitely a good thing.

venomclan

steveinaz wrote:

The Bel Canto is an excellent DAC, I-Sig & I A/B'd a Bel Canto against my Benchmark and we struggled to hear any difference between the two. We used the same transport (CEC) with the coax out to the Bel Canto and the AES/EBU out for the Benchmark. Luckily output levels appeared to be perfectly matched, so we just used the remote on my pre to switch between them.

Steve, did you a/b the Bel Canto Dac 1.1, or the Dac 2?
Venom