Receiver for the LSi

aaburto99

I've heard, or read, from a lot of you that the LSi15s need a good receiver and lots of power. But how much power, and how high-end of a receiver are we talking about here? Could mid-fi receivers like Denon, Marantz, Onkyo do a decent job? Or would someone have to use a better receiver like a Pioneer Elite, Rotel, etc.? I'm pretty new to this audio stuff so I'm not really familiar with the hi-fi equipment. I have a Marantz SR-5200 at home for my RT1000i mains.

saganized

Originally posted by aaburto99
But how much power, and how high-end of a receiver are we talking about here?

aaburto99, for what it's worth....

I have my LSi-15's matched with a Carver HR-752 receiver (100 wpc into 8 ohms and 150 wpc into 4 ohms). That receiver cost me $450 in 1990.

It's a simple two-way system...not a home theater setup by any means (although I can listen to the TV/VCR through the receiver and the sound is quite fine).

I'm no expert or "golden ear"; but I'm very happy with the sound this combination delivers. I normally listen to new age, rock, jazz, and classical.

mantis

There are a couple if your into Home Theater......is that what your after?

OK,
1)Rotel rsx1065
2)B&K avr307
3)Pioneer Elite vsx47 or 49tx.
This level is needed to hear them shine.

Aaron

I agree with Mantis. Also, read this expert from a review I posted several months ago.

As he [the salesman] started to turn the volume up on the Marantz 6200 it turned off. Strange. He turned it back on, started to turn the volume up, and again it turned off. Third time's the charm, right? Wrong! As he turned it up the third time, sparks and mini-flames erupted from inside of the Marantz followed shortly by smoke. It looked like the transformer blew, but the salesman said it was some capacitors near it. I thought it was freakin' hilarious. He had no idea why it happened. I suggested that it was likely because the Marantz couldn't adequately handle the 4 ohm load of the LSi's. He replied by saying that the Marantz literature says their receivers can power "any speaker ever made" from 2 ohms to 16 ohms. Yeah, right. He then said the Energy's were 6 ohm speakers, but they are in fact 8 ohm nominal, 4 ohm minimal. So, he grabs another 6200 and hooks it up. As he begins to turn the volume up the receiver shuts off. Uh, oh. This time he knew not to turn it on again, so he brought over another Marantz, this time the 5200. This time, however, the receiver didn't shut off. The "Peak" light came on, just like with the 6200 (which also showed the peak light when I was listening to the Energy's). The strange thing was that the peak light was coming on at extremely low volumes with the LSi's. With the Energy's it didn't come on until it was fairly loud, though not super loud. Eventually the peak light settled down and went away. Phew, I could FINALLY listen to these speakers.

Aaron

Systems

Here's my take on this. Feel free to offer a different take--I know I'm not an authority, have plenty to learn. One thing I look for in the Sound & Vision surround receiver reviews is the output at clipping with all channels driven. The figures are always less than the manufacturer's specs. I don't know if this is due to manufacturer's spec being cited in a way that's overly favorable or due to different testing criteria on the part of S&V, or a combination of both. Since I have come to assume that the figure will be less than official specs, my area of interest is "relative to the official power & relative to other receivers, how severe is the drop-off?". With some receivers, it's quite extreme, with output at clipping with all channels driven less than half of the official power X 5 channels. I have Marantz's only current 2-channel receiver, the SR4120. It drives 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of 85dB & power rating of 70 watts (130 watts peak) quite easily, but it is recommended that if you're using 4-ohm spkrs, you should only play one pair at a time. Which brings me to something that's always bothered me about surround receivers vs 2-ch receivers. How is it that the 2-ch receivers from Onkyo, Denon, HK, Rotel, etc that are rated at somewhere from 50-100 watts X 2 are nearly as big, or even bigger, than some receivers that promise the same power X 5? My instincts tell me that the surround specs are exaggerated. I think that if you really want the same power as an HK 70 X 2 receiver for your HT, you should get a 5-ch amp rated at about 70 X 5 or get a HT receiver whose output at clipping w/all channels driven is greater than 70 X 5. This means that the official power of the HT receiver will probably be at least 100 X 5, or even more, if the drop-off from official power is extreme. I've heard that current lineup of Marantz receivers (at least the ones below the 8200) seem to suffer from a serious dropoff w/all channels driven. I would hope that they'd do a lot better driving only 2-ch, but I haven't tried them.

mantis

Rest easy bro,
Rotel underrates there receivers..for instance.....
The rsx1065 is rated at 100 x 5 all channels driven.But under all channels driven up to .1% distortion it's pushing 106.8 watts and at 1% is all the way up to 135.4 watts all channels driven @8ohm load.
Man I talk about spec's ........they can be very deceiving.really companies love to play the number game.
Now that same Rotel surround receiver is at 1 channel driven .1% distortion at 153.6 watts and at 1% distortion is 171.7 watts in a 8 ohm load.Reading that quickly can fool you into the receiver is 171.7 wattsx5..which is true if you run one channel.......but who does that.
Now if you look at the 4 ohm load ratings....it's now at.1% distortion at 198.5 watts and 1% at 237.9 watts.

You see how the spec's can mess with yeah.
Rotel says its 100x5 at 8ohm load.......thats respectable,you actually got 200 watts of dynamic power all channels driven.

Play with that for awhile.

Systems

This is kinda what I expected. I live in an urban area of about 300,00 & there's one Rotel dealer. If you want to find receivers that say 100 x 5 but actually put out half that, then you've got plenty of dealers to choose from!

TroyD

I'm going to agree with Dan on this in that I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axle about power ratings. The REAL difference between 100wpc and 125wpc? Damn little.

Give me 50wpc with some decent headroom and I'll drive you out of any room in your house. Shoot, my 15wpc Marantz receiver will do a damn respectable job of it.

Quality not Quantity is what to look for.

BDT

Systems

I'm not sure we're in disagreement here. I would guess that something with an HONESTLY measured capability of say, approx 45 X 2 at 8 ohms & 65 x 2 at 4 ohms should be able to drive the LSi bookshelfs, rated at 20 watts min at 4 ohms. I'm just saying that a lot of mass market stuff, & even some "exclusive" stuff not found at Best Buy, C City, etc, are not really capable of doing this for, for example, five 4-ohm, 88 dB sensitivity speakers at once, hence the Marantz experience cited above. I think that a lot of the HT receiver power ratings are part of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too sales pitch. And therefore, if you insist on getting all 5 channels of power in the same chassis as the preamp, processor, & tuner, you should err way, way, way on the side of xtra power if you are going to get the kind of spkrs in question-for example, Denon 5803. Am I making any sense?

TroyD

Yeah, I think you are making sense......and I agree that some of the power ratings are BS, but to a certain extent, they are regulated and have to comply with the federales.

I liken it to car motors. Will a 4cyl motor drive my truck down the highway at 65mph with my fat **** in it? Sure, to a certain extent but not as well as an 8cyl motor. That's the analogy that I use. The 8cyl has got power to spare, headroom if you will.

However, the real difference, as I said, in 100 and 125 wpc isn't all that much. To gain an audible difference in power, it is said, that you need to double it.


BDT

Dr. Spec

Troy is correct. Every doubling in power will provide a 3 dB increase in SPL. The difference between 100 watts and 125 watts (if that is the true differnce in the actual outputs) will be very minimal. Dynamic headroom and current capability into low impedances also makes a big difference.

There is a hotlink to a website that lists the true power output (at a rated distortion level - can't remember exact number, maybe 0.1%, and impedance) of MANY common HT receivers.

Despite the federal guidelines for rating amps (e.g., 100 WPC into 8 ohms, 20-20K, all 5 channels driven, <0.1% THD), I was amazed at how many of these receivers (including mine) failed to make their rated power before distorting above the preset testing limit. Most of the supposed 100 WPC HT receivers only got up to about 60 watts or so - that's still plenty loud, but ya kinda feel cheated a little when your rig doesn't make rated specs.

I think Mantis is onto something when he says certain manufacturers rate their amps conservatively - I feel that if an amp comfortably surpasses it's rated specs, that is one yardstick of a high quality rig.

Doc

mantis

I'm not into it but thats what alot of manufactors do.
Denon ,Kenwood are big at this.Even Pioneer Elite played the game.

Denon avr5800 rated at 170x7 @8 ohms.
Now drive that same receiver with all channels driven and you get 85 watts.What happened to the 170???1 channel driven at 1khz.WOW.

Kenwood Sovern vr5900 rated at 130 @6 ohms 1 channel driven.
Drive all channels and it falls in the 60 watt range @8 ohm.

This is why I don't like to talk about spec's anymore.I pisses me off to read them, then come to find out there mis leading.

Back on track with the Lsi's.Good sound quality is in what your lookin for.If the rt lines or R lines don't do it for you, and your looking into the Lsi's, your gonna need really good receivers or even better seperates.It's just a natural progression.

I swore by the receiver for all of my life.Now I got a taste of seperates and I just want to upgrade already.Rotel got a killer pre amp out and a couple of amps i'm drooling all over.

AllenLongcor

So the Pioneer Elite line should have no problem driving LSi's? I've been looking at the 45TX very seriously of late as my next receiver. There is no mention of ohms on the website however, and a Pioneer email made it sound as if 4 ohm speakers shouldn't be used with their receiver. Anyone have any experience in this matter?

mantis

Yeah man I do,
If your looking at Pioneer Elite, look at the vsx47tx and the vsx49tx.They both can handle the 4 ohm load well, there amps are powerfull.So much better then a year ago..And the best they have been in years.

The vsx45tx would be better suited for the rt lines,there lighter on the load and that receiver would feel beter staying over a 6 ohm load.