Best way to eliminate alternator noise

engtaz

I need some new ideas or threads on how to eliminate alternator noise. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
engtaz

exalted512

What radio, amp, and RCAs do you have?
-Cody

PolkThug

Try a noise filter, they are cheap.

Jstas

Take the alternator out, you don't need it.





If the alternator is making noise or causing noise, your voltage regulator is likely bad or going bad and needs to be replaced. Not a big deal. You either can replace the module or you replace the whole alternator. Depends on your car.

Then again, what makes you think the alternator is making noise?

ben62670

I had a tough time with alternator noise, and it was a bad ground on one of my components. I think it was my CO. I also try to run all my grounds directly to the battery

Jstas

ben62670 wrote:

I also try to run all my grounds directly to the battery

Bad idea.

All grounds should go to the same ground point but running a ground back to the battery is a surefire way to put a ground loop into effect.

Take a good look at your battery's ground strap. It's bolted to the frame of the vehicle. Nothing gets connected back to it except the starter solenoid. The only reason that gets connected back to it is because it has three power leads and one ground lead. One is the power, power lead and the other is the switchable power lead which is connected by your ignition switch in the steering column. The third lead exits the solenoid and runs to the starter which is grounded to the chassis through the engine block which is grounded by the engine's ground strap. The only ground comes out of the solenoid and back to the battery otherwise, you'd have a 12 volt 600 amp ground point in the steering column and you'd light up like a Christmas tree every time you tried to start the car. Which would only happen once. The ground has to go back to the battery for the switch to work the way it is designed. The only other thing that gets grounded back to the battery in some cases is the alternator. However, that is the charging system, and it won't work right without a return loop to the battery.

Grounding your audio equipment to the battery is a bad idea because the ground on the battery may be sufficient but it has alot of noise associated with it. You should take your grounds off of the battery and find a spot as far away from the battery and engine grounds as you can on the car's frame or on something securely attached to the car's frame. Attach all the grounds to the same spot. I prefer to find a hole already there and get a bolt, some eye rings, a couple of flat washers, a couple of star washers and a nut and attach the eye rings to my ground lead ends and the bolt them together through the hole so that the star washers will dig into the metal and provide a solid ground.

The reason you should do this is that a ground is only effective if it has enough resistance that your power source is incapable of charging the body it is securely grounded to. Also, if the body you are grounding to already has a charge, that isn't a good thing. The reason we use the Earth as a ground is because there is no humanly way possible to charge the Earth to it's full capacitance. In a car, it is isolated from the Earth through the rubber tires. So, what you need to do is find a ground point that is so large that the 12 volt output will never fully charge it. The only thing in a car like that is the chassis.

When you connect to the battery, you are essentially taking another circuit of the charging system you made yourself from the battery and running it back on itself. You take power from the battery and send it right back to the battery. It's not good and can actually damage the battery if your current draw is too high.

The reason you want your audio ground point to be far away from your charging system, ignition system and starting system grounds is because those are the three most powerful circuits in your electrical system. They cannot charge the car's frame completely either but they have enough current running through them that they can actually charge a small section of the frame and cause the cycle that the ground circuit operates at to bleed over into your audio circuit ground. That causes feedback that manifests itself in a thumping noise or that engine whine noise.

Yeah, don't ground to the battery, your seat frame or any other existing ground.

ben62670

Jstas wrote:

Bad idea.

All grounds should go to the same ground point but running a ground back to the battery is a surefire way to put a ground loop into effect.

Take a good look at your battery's ground strap. It's bolted to the frame of the vehicle. Nothing gets connected back to it except the starter solenoid. The only reason that gets connected back to it is because it has three power leads and one ground lead. One is the power, power lead and the other is the switchable power lead which is connected by your ignition switch in the steering column. The third lead exits the solenoid and runs to the starter which is grounded to the chassis through the engine block which is grounded by the engine's ground strap. The only ground comes out of the solenoid and back to the battery otherwise, you'd have a 12 volt 600 amp ground point in the steering column and you'd light up like a Christmas tree every time you tried to start the car. Which would only happen once. The ground has to go back to the battery for the switch to work the way it is designed. The only other thing that gets grounded back to the battery in some cases is the alternator. However, that is the charging system, and it won't work right without a return loop to the battery.

Grounding your audio equipment to the battery is a bad idea because the ground on the battery may be sufficient but it has alot of noise associated with it. You should take your grounds off of the battery and find a spot as far away from the battery and engine grounds as you can on the car's frame or on something securely attached to the car's frame. Attach all the grounds to the same spot. I prefer to find a hole already there and get a bolt, some eye rings, a couple of flat washers, a couple of star washers and a nut and attach the eye rings to my ground lead ends and the bolt them together through the hole so that the star washers will dig into the metal and provide a solid ground.

The reason you should do this is that a ground is only effective if it has enough resistance that your power source is incapable of charging the body it is securely grounded to. Also, if the body you are grounding to already has a charge, that isn't a good thing. The reason we use the Earth as a ground is because there is no humanly way possible to charge the Earth to it's full capacitance. In a car, it is isolated from the Earth through the rubber tires. So, what you need to do is find a ground point that is so large that the 12 volt output will never fully charge it. The only thing in a car like that is the chassis.

When you connect to the battery, you are essentially taking another circuit of the charging system you made yourself from the battery and running it back on itself. You take power from the battery and send it right back to the battery. It's not good and can actually damage the battery if your current draw is too high.

The reason you want your audio ground point to be far away from your charging system, ignition system and starting system grounds is because those are the three most powerful circuits in your electrical system. They cannot charge the car's frame completely either but they have enough current running through them that they can actually charge a small section of the frame and cause the cycle that the ground circuit operates at to bleed over into your audio circuit ground. That causes feedback that manifests itself in a thumping noise or that engine whine noise.

Yeah, don't ground to the battery, your seat frame or any other existing ground.

That is the first time I have ever heard of this, and I am not saying your wrong, but I have been told by many people, and have experienced that having the components grounded to the battery gives you cleaner power than the chassis because of the current flowing back to the battery from all the noisy systems that you have mentioned above. Also car manufactures don't design their vehicles to handle the currant capacity of large audio systems. If your amps are using up the currant capacity of the chassis ground then what happens to every other system in your vehicle that requires a ground? As for damaging a battery with amplifier draw that makes me even more suspicious of your above comments, and wanting resistance in your audio circuitry that sounds crazy too. If your components wanted any Resistance to them the manufacturers would have designed that into the circuitry. The only thing that I truly agree with is "Attach all the grounds to the same spot.". I will be watching this post. Your comments are interesting,and I do have an open mind.

Thanks
Ben

exalted512

A lot of people probably told you that because thats the way many people thought was the best way for a long time, it has been proven otherwise now though.

Your car is a 12V negative ground system, the battery supplies the power but has to ground into something that, like John said, has a bigger capacitance that the battery can produce. That would be the frame. So essentially, youre grounding everything back to the frame anyway. Have you seen the factory battery to frame wire? Its very small. So youre taking your 4awg wire all the way to the battery, then into 8awg or smaller back to the frame.

Plus, the longer the run of wire, the more resistance occurs. The more resistance in your ground is giving a better chance to induce noise. Thats why its commonly known to keep your grounds as short as possible. A run from the trunk to the battery is by no means short unless you have a beamer where the battery is in the trunk.

The way I do my grounds is scrape off to bare metal and shoot 4 screws through and around the ring. Not saying its the best way, but I've never had a car come back for a problem related to the ground, ever. Ive been an installer for over 2 years now.

On my truck, I have ground blocks similar to these:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/STRGT10

3 bolts each, then on the bottom of the truck I have one from each ground block (3 for 3 amps) going to a common ground at the frame.

-Cody

ben62670

exalted512 wrote:

A lot of people probably told you that because thats the way many people thought was the best way for a long time, it has been proven otherwise now though.
-Cody

Yep when I was into car audio about 15 years ago everyone was running a big fat wire to the battery ground.

Thanks guys I learned yet another thing here at Club Polk
((( AKA club Myth Busters;) )))

Jstas

ben62670 wrote:

That is the first time I have ever heard of this, and I am not saying your wrong, but I have been told by many people, and have experienced that having the components grounded to the battery gives you cleaner power than the chassis because of the current flowing back to the battery from all the noisy systems that you have mentioned above. Also car manufactures don't design their vehicles to handle the currant capacity of large audio systems. If your amps are using up the currant capacity of the chassis ground then what happens to every other system in your vehicle that requires a ground? As for damaging a battery with amplifier draw that makes me even more suspicious of your above comments, and wanting resistance in your audio circuitry that sounds crazy too. If your components wanted any Resistance to them the manufacturers would have designed that into the circuitry. The only thing that I truly agree with is "Attach all the grounds to the same spot.". I will be watching this post. Your comments are interesting,and I do have an open mind.

Thanks
Ben

You need to go take a class in basic circuits.

Don't believe me all you want, I don't care. I'll tell you this though. While I'm not an installer by trade, I have been installing audio equipment in vehicles for almost 15 years now. I also work part time as a mechanic on everything from Honduh Civics to Cat Bulldozers. On top of that, I have a legitimate background in electrical engineering and I design, build and maintain enterprise level data centers for a living (among other things). That includes handling emergency power generation systems comprised of massive generators driven by equally massive turbodiesel engines and also mapping out power grids and circuits to support the equipment getting installed in those rooms. All part of the fun of being a systems administrator in an enterprise level environment. I'm not only speaking the truth but I am speaking from experience.

If you think I am off-base, go look it up. And I'm not talking about going to another forum full of ****-hat pseudo-installers that sit on an internet forum all day bragging about how much thier Civic "bumps". Go find one of the many primers or reference materials online that will educate you on basic circuits.

Otherwise, stop dancing around the subject of calling me a liar. I wasn't condescending nor was I rude in my post (I am in this one...a little). I laid out the facts and made it as easy and simplistic to understand as I could without spreading mis-information. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, that's on you but it doesn't make me a liar.

So keep watching the thread and have fun keeping that "open mind". 'Cause it really isn't open if you are going to meet things with such crippling skepticism and never even ask a question to get clarification.

Besides, who in the hell could make that up anyway?

ben62670

Jstas wrote:

You need to go take a class in basic circuits.

Don't believe me all you want, I don't care. I'll tell you this though. While I'm not an installer by trade, I have been installing audio equipment in vehicles for almost 15 years now. I also work part time as a mechanic on everything from Honduh Civics to Cat Bulldozers. On top of that, I have a legitimate background in electrical engineering and I design, build and maintain enterprise level data centers for a living (among other things). That includes handling emergency power generation systems comprised of massive generators driven by equally massive turbodiesel engines and also mapping out power grids and circuits to support the equipment getting installed in those rooms. All part of the fun of being a systems administrator in an enterprise level environment. I'm not only speaking the truth but I am speaking from experience.

If you think I am off-base, go look it up. And I'm not talking about going to another forum full of ****-hat pseudo-installers that sit on an internet forum all day bragging about how much thier Civic "bumps". Go find one of the many primers or reference materials online that will educate you on basic circuits.

Otherwise, stop dancing around the subject of calling me a liar. I wasn't condescending nor was I rude in my post (I am in this one...a little). I laid out the facts and made it as easy and simplistic to understand as I could without spreading mis-information. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, that's on you but it doesn't make me a liar.

So keep watching the thread and have fun keeping that "open mind". 'Cause it really isn't open if you are going to meet things with such crippling skepticism and never even ask a question to get clarification.

Besides, who in the hell could make that up anyway?

I did not say you are a liar. I didn't say I don't believe you. I said what I have been told, and what I have done. After your post, and exalted512 post I believe what was said. I also said I will be watching because I have learned a lot here. Reread what I said. Then reread what you said. I don't know if someone pissed in your Cheerios this morning or what. All I have to say is wow to the crap you came up with to my short response. I am not going to run my grounds to the battery anymore. I do respect what you have said electronically, but your either a dick, or having a bad day. Hopefully you are just having a bad day, and you are not a dick.

Have a better day
Ben

MacLeod

No, John isnt having a bad day. He's just a dick. But he does have a wonderful singing voice.

He's also usually right, and is so in this case as well.

ben62670

MacLeod wrote:

No, John isnt having a bad day. He's just a dick. But he does have a wonderful singing voice.

He's also usually right, and is so in this case as well.

Thanks again Mac
I have heard I can be a dick at times too

Greg Peters

Everybody put their dicks away and crank the tunes...on Polk speakers, of course .

Jstas

MacLeod wrote:

No, John isnt having a bad day. He's just a dick. But he does have a wonderful singing voice.

Thanks a heap, dude.

TrappedUnder Ice

Then again...A lot of folks recomend CAPACITORS! hehe. I had too- hate it when it does that

Grounding too the battery is not wrong... Just not the most economical and ground savy choice. Normal rule of thumb is same gage as power within 18" of the amp...

Alternator noice is a problem.

many things can cause this.

On older cars... needing a tune up could do this...
Ive seen antenna ground cause what folks thought was alt whine.
Poor ground of the amps and HU is normaly the main cause.
Had an RF amp with a bad transitor that caused what I thought was alt whine.

Then there are just sub par amps that no mater what you do...you get it. Like the old hondas... hard to keep noice out.

MacLeod

Jstas wrote:

Thanks a heap, dude.

Im here for ya brother!

I got yer back!

Jstas

MacLeod wrote:

Im here for ya brother!

I got yer back!

Kind of like an ****, right?

jakelm

Do those Power packs really help from draining from the altenator? In my 97 Ext cab Z-71, I only have one MTX Sub amp, approx 500watts driving 2 10" Punch under the back seat. When I crank it up I can see my volt meter drain very much and my lights get dimm every time it hits. Would the power packs work in my situation? I have read mixed feeling about this.

Jake

josh_parsons626

Jstas wrote:

Take the alternator out, you don't need it.

LOL Now that's funny!

exalted512

jakelm wrote:

Do those Power packs really help from draining from the altenator? In my 97 Ext cab Z-71, I only have one MTX Sub amp, approx 500watts driving 2 10" Punch under the back seat. When I crank it up I can see my volt meter drain very much and my lights get dimm every time it hits. Would the power packs work in my situation? I have read mixed feeling about this.

Jake

What battery do you have? How old is it?
-Cody

SpeedDemon

i dont know if anyone has said this yet but im going to say it again becuase this is the main reason in a Amp Audio system you get engine niose. If your RCA are close the a big power wire your going to get niose. YOu need your RCA as far away from any power wire as you can. Mine are ran right now the middle of the car. Same for video systems that have FM mods. Its best to run your wire away from power wire as much as you can. And a set of good RCA never hurt! ..

jakelm

exalted512 wrote:

What battery do you have? How old is it?
-Cody

I believe its a duralast 825 CCA. My shop checked the altenator and the battery. They said both were fine. No dead cells or anything. Battery might be 6-8 months old.

exalted512

SpeedDemon wrote:

i dont know if anyone has said this yet but im going to say it again becuase this is the main reason in a Amp Audio system you get engine niose. If your RCA are close the a big power wire your going to get niose. YOu need your RCA as far away from any power wire as you can. Mine are ran right now the middle of the car. Same for video systems that have FM mods. Its best to run your wire away from power wire as much as you can. And a set of good RCA never hurt! ..

RCAs getting noise through the induction of the power wire is very, very, VERY uncommon.

By far not the main reason an amp would get noise.

jake-Have you upgraded your factory wiring? I would do that before I got a cap. Get some 4awg and redo your battery to alternator, battery to FRAME(not the body), and frame to body. A lot cheaper and a helluva lot more effective.
-Cody

jakelm

Cody : I'm running 4awg wire from amp to battery. Your saying running a bigger wire form battery to altenator will improve things? It looks like a 6-8awg wire already. I did clean around the ground strap from battery to frame.

I might need a bigger altenator. I have just the whimpy stock altenator right now.

exalted512

Sounds crazy, but yea, something as simple and as cheap as improving not just the alternator to battery, but the other 2 i mentioned as well generally help out a lot more than a cap, and much, much cheaper.
-Cody

Jstas

One thing though. If you are drawing more current than the alternator can produce and your voltage meter is dropping then basically what is happening is you are pulling the power out of the battery faster than the alternator can put it back. That's why you get the voltage drop. If you draw too much power out of the alternator then you are clipping at your power source which isn't good. It not only causes excessive heat problems in the alternator which will kill the alternator but you are also going to get whining noise due to the damaged electrical system. On top of that, GM is notorious for having wimpy alternators with barely enough juice to power the stock vehicle let alone any aftermarket accessories like plow lights, trailer lights or stereo equipment.

I'd do like Cody said and upgrade from 8 guage wire to 4 guage wire. If the whining is still there, you might have a charging system problem. But over drawing the alternator, power cables or battery will cause problems with engine whine. Also, if you have corrossion on your battery terminals, and you are over-drawing your charging system, you can actually cause the corrosion to travel down the power cable. So check all your connections for corrosion.

I posted something before about battery maintenance. Just search on my user name here and "baking soda" and you should find it. It's in the Car Audio section IIRC.

TrappedUnder Ice

running RCA's next too your power wire is not always the problem. My RCA's always end up at one point or another with my power and ground wires and I never get noise. Thats more wives tale then anything...Unless your using some really cheap-o RCA's like the ones that come with the sat dish !

MacLeod

RCA's can easily pick up noise if theyre shielded. The shield acts like an antena.

engtaz

Cody,
I have a Kenwood Excellon head unit, Orion SX amps, Diamond Auto speakers 6 series FRONT and BACK, 2 - 12" Kenwood subs. 1998 Dodge Dakota truck.

engtaz

exalted512

Heres what I'd do first. Reground the head unit. Go straight from the black wire to bare metal. A lot of the time thatll completely alleviate it, if not help it out a little.

Also, try doing the big 3. The big 3 is replacing battery to frame(make sure you go to the frame and not the body), battery to alternator, and body to frame. Do that all with 4 awg + wire.

What kind of RCAs do you have?
-Cody