why the music is better only on 2 channel?

F1nut

Joey_V wrote:

Who cares if he posts it straight from google. Last I checked this place isnt a place of academia where it matters. Leave the guy alone, Jesse. Quit policing the place.

You see Joey, that's one of the differences between you and I. I take the time to look out for my fellow Polkies, where as you just look out for yourself. Now, before you get all defensive bear in mind that I have an uncanny ability to see folks for what they are by what they write and how they write it. Granted, some make it so obvious any idiot can see it. Anyway, as I was saying, you make it pretty obvious what you're about and judging by the emails and PM's I've received, there are a lot of other folks here who see the real you too. On the other hand, there seem to be a number of folks who believe you when you tell them it's raining while you're pissing on their leg. I suppose the adage, "You can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time", would fit here.

So, with that in mind, how many noobie questions have you answered? How many, "Welcome to the forum" posts have you made? How many times have you pointed out someone trying to pull a scam? How many times have you flushed out a troll? How many times have you lent or given someone here a piece of gear or some audio related goodie? How many times have you helped someone fix or mod a piece of gear for no other reason than you want to see them enjoying this hobby? How many road trips have you gone on to help someone pick up a piece of gear and been more excited about it than the person buying it? How many times have you searched for the answer to a question just because you wanted to help someone, expecting nothing in return? What exactly have you given back to the forum other than something that's all about you? No need to answer any of those questions because we already know.

How dare you tell me what to do or what not to do. You haven't earned that right, you're not even close!

dorokusai

If that isn't the most pretentious post in history, let me know. When are we going to begin to send jpg's of our forum genitals?

F1nut

Really? As if you had room to talk.

dorokusai

I can get pretty mean and open if you want, just let me know.

RuSsMaN

Do it!!! Scorched Earth!!!

Joey_V

F1nut wrote:

How dare you tell me what to do or what not to do. You haven't earned that right, you're not even close!

You're right Jesse.. I dont have the right.

And in the same token, neither do you have the right to be a jackass whenever you feel like it. I'm tired of seeing you be a jackass whenever the opportunity presents itself.

It wasnt exactly the plagiarism that got me to post back at your reply, it was the fact that you have no tact in getting your point across.

I'm not saying dont be a jackass.. I'm just saying that you can get your point across without having to be one. It's an opinion of mine. You can do as you please regardless of my opinion. That's YOUR right.

Deadof_knight

School of hard knocks teaches at an infantecimal pace......(hope my spellings is correct) as dead looks over his shoulder. School is great knowledge but it has to be applied with experience to over come most problems. If all you do is quote a book then well, you have a good memory not wisdom.

F1nut

dorokusai wrote:

I can get pretty mean and open if you want, just let me know.

Ditto and that goes twice for you, Russ.

F1nut

Joey, how's this for tact? Grow up.

heiney9

Joey_V wrote:

Who cares if he posts it straight from google. Last I checked this place isnt a place of academia where it matters. Leave the guy alone, Jesse. Quit policing the place.

If you've followed JohnK at all you know he's a bit of crack pot when it comes to audio. He doesn't believe in anything making a difference. If it were up to him we'd all still be listening to acetate's on a Victrola. He is a source of poor and many times incorrect info. But the biggest irk is him passing off idea's and statements that aren't really his own and then acting like he is some sort of audio guru. He's absolutely welcome to post whatever he wants, but he is going to get called on it everytime.

Joey_V

heiney9 wrote:

If you've followed JohnK at all you know he's a bit of crack pot when it comes to audio. He doesn't believe in anything making a difference. If it were up to him we'd all still be listening to acetate's on a Victrola. He is a source of poor and many times incorrect info. But the biggest irk is him passing off idea's and statements that aren't really his own and then acting like he is some sort of audio guru. He's absolutely welcome to post whatever he wants, but he is going to get called on it everytime.

Ah I see..

In that case, the call out was justified. My bad then.

Regardless, there are always better ways to do a call out than being condescending and mean.

dorokusai

Edited For Content.

Joey_V

dorokusai wrote:

IMO, you're the biggest first impression **** on this forum, bar none. It's a real shame because your offsite personality is solid and your really interesting to talk to in a localized enviroment. How you pull a 180 in regards to your conduct here amazes me.

Aside from running off new, albeit some are clearly lame, members, ragging on current members’ gear, being the resident “Flea Market Savior” and wishing Happy Birthday to folks, what do you contribute exactly?

I will say this, regardless of whichever or whoever this JohnK guy is, I do not know him so I cant say much for or against him.

That said, I will say that F1nut's reply to JohnK's supposed plagiarism is prototypical of his regular postings. It's always condescending and most often than not, degrading to the member it is directed towards.

There are many better ways of communicating without being an ****, and although it is his right to be an ****, it's also my right to call him out on being one... regardless if this affects him or not.

Being an **** gives a bad vibe for the community and it's not something that is necessary to convey the experience or knowledge that one has. From my PMs and from the posts that F1 has written, I feel that he does this whole **** front because he feels that what he has done for Club Polk and his experience here allows him the leeway (sp?) to do so.

Regardless if he doesnt care what others think of him, being a **** is never necessary and there are many more amicable ways to go about getting one's point across.

Just my 2cents.

Joey_V

F1nut wrote:

Joey, how's this for tact? Grow up.

Actually, Jesse, it is you who should grow up. What with your PM threats of "you dont know who you're messing with" and what not. I think it's safe to say that we all have graduated elementary school and we need not these playground threats and bullies.

Especially when you take into account that all we're talking about is audio for goodness sakes man. This isnt exactly a make/break topic we have going on here, so unnecessary roughness need not apply.

I really dont see why you have to walk around the forum with a rod up your **** the whole time.

Again, just my opinion.

steveinaz

I stay 2-channel for 2 reasons:

1. Economics
2. Sound

I'd much rather concentrate the money 5.1 speakers (or 7.1) require, into a really nice pair of 2-channel speakers.

The sometimes "sitting in the middle of the band" effect you get with surround it's just too contrived for me. For movies it's cool, but I don't like it with music.

But as Cathy said, it's a personal preference thing.

Midnite Mick

It has probably already been stated but the only benefit I see in surround music is for live performances. Receiving ambient crowd noise behind may give you more of a feeling of being part of the event.

I have heard an SACD (Queen) in multi-channel and I didn't like it. It just didn't seem natural to have a guitar coming out of a right surround...just sounded off, maybe because I was not used to it. Just didn't do it for me.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks,
Mike

Midnite Mick

Also for most of us our main speakers are our best speakers. I would rather have all of the music being reproduced by what I have best.

Mike

pblanc

I have no doubt that with the money i spent on an all LSi 7.1 system (LSi15 mains, 2 Lsi9 centers, LSiFX surrounds, LSi7 rear surrounds, and the amplification required to drive all those 4 ohm speakers, that I could have gotten a truely kick-**** 2 channel system with a terrific 2 channel amp and a pair of Vandersteens, Martin-Logan, Magneplanars, Sonus Fabers, or (insert favorite speaker here). If I listened mainly to music I'm sure I would have done so. I do enjoy home theater, however, and there is no doubt that a two channel system, while still sounding very good, does introduce a significant limitation for HT. I fully understand why a lot of music lovers are willing to accept that compromise. When listening to music, unless on a DVD video, multichannel DVD-Audio or multichannel SACD, I invariably set my pre/pro to stereo "pure direct". I must say, though, that the LSi15s are terrific speakers that are not embarrased by those higher-priced brands.

TroyD

I think in theory that multi-channel has merit.

However, the devil is in the details.

The foremost shortcoming is the recordings. Most, if not all, of this stuff is being mixed from 2 channel masters. So, more than ever, you are at the mercy of an engineer. There are other format issues but that's the huge one.

Two is the gear/setup. Ideally, you would have identical speakers/amps all the way around. That's not terribly practical and in many cases, feasible.

So, for me, it's not that I'm philospophically opposed to multi-channel, I just think the execution of it, so far, isn't where it needs to be.

As for the rest of it. Look, we ALL push our own agendas. We're all a bunch of people living in glass houses.

As far as JohnK goes, he might be a great guy in real life (as I think both Mark and Jesse are, I'd take a bullet in the **** for either of them) but he's got a specific agenda as well..........many of his posts are can be attributed to other sources which aren't as objective as he'd have us believe.

Again, at the end of the day, it's audio. It's a hobby. If it ain't fun, find something that is. Life is too short to get your panties in a wad about what someone else on this forum or any other says or thinks about things in general or you in particular.

BDT

steveinaz

TroyD wrote:

The foremost shortcoming is the recordings. Most, if not all, of this stuff is being mixed from 2 channel masters. So, more than ever, you are at the mercy of an engineer. There are other format issues but that's the huge one.

Bravo. This is very frustrating.

When I hear beautiful redbook CD recordings I wonder why they all can't sound that way.

TroyD

Well, it's like any other new technology.....out of the gate it's not even NEAR being at it's potential. In many cases, the older technology performs at a higher level until the bugs are worked out.

In THIS case, I will always see the software as being the limiting factor simply because in the way it was originally recorded.

BDT

Midnite Mick

steveinaz wrote:

Bravo. This is very frustrating.

When I hear beautiful redbook CD recordings I wonder why they all can't sound that way.

Ditto

heiney9

steveinaz wrote:

Bravo. This is very frustrating.

When I hear beautiful redbook CD recordings I wonder why they all can't sound that way.

Yep, the recording process is THE single most important factor in realizing how good recorded music can sound. Many of the poor recordings stem from two thought processes. A) Engineers are taking short cuts and don’t really know how to construct the proper mix. Many engineers either don’t care about high fidelity or are under extreme pressure form the record label to “bang” something marginal out to keep costs down.

Here’s is my best example:

Been a long time Led Zeppelin bootleg collector. The 2 most recent live releases which includes the DVD have been available on various semi-professional and amateur recordings for approx. 20 years. The Holy grail was to find some of these blistering performances in what one would consider audiophile quality. The Royal Albert hall audio has always been available as a somewhat butchered FM recording. Well, I’m not going to go into detail on every recording, but How The West Was Won has been avail in several different versions including soundboard snippets and well as a great 3D audience recording. All those years we never ever believed (as Zep collectors) that any of this stuff would ever be discovered. We were told over and over that no professional recordings of the band were ever recovered from the iron fists of Peter Grant who was paranoid enough to destroy these types of recordings after deciding they were of no use at the time.

Fast forward to 2000-01 and it leaks that a warehouse of archival tapes is discovered. Someone (probably low on the totem pole) was going thru this somewhat abandoned warehouse and came across boxes and boxes of almost illegibly marked tapes. The powers that be were notified and thus started a 2 year process of restoring 30+ year old recordings which were left completely abandoned. Knowing what was originally involved, and the history behind these tapes and then reading the chronology of what monumental tasks and time it took to resurrect these recordings, I’m constantly amazed at how good the end product is.

My point to this long winded ramble is the technology is now there to take the worst cared for recording’s, and what was recorded on somewhat primitive machines and not intended for commercial release, and make a multi-channel presentation as well as a 2 channel performance that is very very acceptable. It took a lot of time, effort and good ‘ole sweat to get it done right. If only we could get that kind of commitment for recordings of today. So many of the independents know how to do it right. I’m so tired of current pop recordings.

H9

F1nut

Yeah Mark, we all know that you and I have parted as friends and your dislike for the way I do things. That you think you've become better than and somehow risen to the top of the heap. Whatever.

I've had some great offline dialogue with JohnK and you'd be suprised how knowledgable he is when it comes to audio. I used to get annoyed when he posted his opinion and eventually sent him an email about something unrelated, and began a grown up conversation. I don't agree with everything he says either, but you don't see me pounding him everytime he posts, but you will see F1Nut.

So, you'd rather see a noobie (the ones he targets) believe the mis-information that he posts? I don't see that as doing anyone any favors, but hey, that's just me.

Aside from wishing folks Happy Birthday, saying vintage gear sucks, saying HT sucks, saying AVR's suck, saying 5.1 music sucks, etc etc....I'm not sure what positive influence you even have here Jesse. Oh wait, you're the self proclaimed Flea Market policeman, riding a horse called Common Sense.

That's a load of crap and you know it, including your comment about the FM. There's plenty going on there that I never say a word about as many others here do a very good job of patroling it. There was once a time when you patroled the FM with a vengeance, but now it's just a place for you peddle your wares under the pretense of passing on a good deal. In fact, that's pretty close to the only area you post in these days. Is that what you call having a positive influence?

Just out of curiosity, please expound on MY "pretentious" posture, as I would love to hear an example. I took a break from this forum because I started to dislike the rhetoric that was spewed as fact and definitive opinion, sometimes from my own mouth. Maybe that was just me, just my personal hangup, but I didn’t want to contribute to it any longer. If I couldn't be positive and helpful, there was no need for me to be posting anymore.

Is your last post a good enough example because it works for me.

If the end user can’t exercise common sense, than what’s the point. The more I enjoy and read about this hobby, the more I find misleading and fundamentally flawed. This hobby is challenging and thought provoking, and that's what it should be.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I always though this hobby should be fun. Trying to seek out info from the ends of the world and analyze every last detail can take it's toll, you know?

It used to be really fun, and it changed for me, so I removed myself from the issue and immersed myself into other hobbies.

And yet, here you are. I hope you enjoy your new hobbies as much as you once enjoyed this one, I mean that.

I, unlike you, try to experience gear and pick up pieces that are of interest to me. I like the idea of vintage gear in particular, within reason, but you poo poo it all the time. You also rag on AVR’s, and they all suck and clip….what a generic, uneducated comment. AVR’s exist that have no issues, you’re just so close minded on 2CH that you wouldn’t really know anyways. Really, since you have no HT, and never have to my knowledge unless you count the early 90's, how can you really even comment? A store demo? LOL.

Odd comment considering that I own vintage gear. Some of it's good, some of it isn't. It's no different than new gear in that aspect. As for AVR's, you're twisting things around to suit your needs. I rag on them, they all clip? No Mark, I answer the question posted by many as to why their AVR shuts down when cranked or why they keep frying tweeters. What would you tell them? What would you know about what I know, we really haven't spoken in a year. And what's so wrong with store demo's? Sure it's not like having it in your house, but it's the only way some people can listen to it. Not everyone can afford to, nor has the time or the interest to drag home every piece of gear on the planet.

My purpose is to help me gain more knowledge and get a feel for what to actually listen for and enjoy myself in the process. Why would you not want to experience something? Just out of close minded thought process? What do you do?

We're not that different there. However, the methods may be.

You, unlike myself, choose to modify and solidify yourself into a certain aspect of hi-end audio and SDA worship. You own high end gear, no doubt, and have done amazing things in the mods dept, in particular the Jolida mod, but I don’t subscribe to that idea. I find a benefit but not a real reason/neccesity in the end. You bought your way into high end and your so high brow now, it wouldn't matter if something cheaper sounded better, you wouldn't own it based on price alone.

Yeah, like I have the best of everything. What an ignorant comment. I've got stuff here that's probably not worth more than $50.00 that I enjoy, so pfffft on that theory.

IMO, you're the biggest first impression **** on this forum, bar none. It's a real shame because your offsite personality is solid and your really interesting to talk to in a localized enviroment. How you pull a 180 in regards to your conduct here amazes me.

Look in the mirror.

Aside from running off new, albeit some are clearly lame, members, ragging on current members’ gear, being the resident “Flea Market Savior” and wishing Happy Birthday to folks, what do you contribute exactly?

Oh nothing, absolutely nothing. :rolleyes:

zombie boy 2000

heiney9 wrote:

So many of the independents know how to do it right. I’m so tired of current pop recordings.

H9

Right on H9:)
The three most dreaded words in my universe are "major label debut" for precisely the reasons you listed.

F1nut

Joey, I'll spinkle some sugar around just to make you feel better.

BTW, don't mistake advice for threats.

Have a blissfully nice day.

Joey_V

F1nut wrote:

Joey, I'll spinkle some sugar around just to make you feel better.

BTW, don't mistake advice for threats.

Have a blissfully nice day.

I'm not going to drag it out on this thread as it does not serve any purpose to the discussion at hand, do what you feel like doing and go about your daily business, I could care less.

TroyD wrote:

So, for me, it's not that I'm philospophically opposed to multi-channel, I just think the execution of it, so far, isn't where it needs to be.
BDT

I definitely agree with you on this one. So far, I dont "think" that multichannel is executed well in most cases.

However, I'm sure there are some that are very well executed, from what I have read and hear.

I just wish I had, at my disposal, a reference multichannel setup to really validate my opinions to myself.

hearingimpared

I have my two channel rig so I can listen to music. I am building a higher end HT system in my media room and a lesser one in my living room to watch movies. I never considered seriously listening to music with multi-channel.

I am however looking forward to hearing the DSOTM & Jazz at the Pawnshop SACDs in multi-channel for two different reasons. DSOTM is lots of sound effects that I think would shine in 5.1. JATP I think will shine with 5.1 because of the natural room ambience and din recorded. This of course is all speculation.

TroyD

Joey_V wrote:

However, I'm sure there are some that are very well executed, from what I have read and hear.

I just wish I had, at my disposal, a reference multichannel setup to really validate my opinions to myself.

Well, here's the thing though.....can the outlay in expense be justified by, at the most, a handful of recordings?

Honestly, most pop music is dreck regardless of the number of channels. For the most part classical music, the high water mark has been set in terms of performances years ago not to mention, most labels classical inventory is primarily limited to rereleasing performances that are 30-40 years old.

So, in my case, the software issue is a tough one to overcome.

Also, the last thing I want to do is insert myself in this brouhaha....but, Joey, lemme point out here: Yes, Jesse fired the first cannonball across the bow here. That said, you've done a pretty credible job of keeping it alive. Now, if you want to be confrontational (which I don't necessarily have a problem with as I do from time to time. There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal buttmunch) but if that's not the case, you've made your comment. Let it be. As I see it, the comment about JohnK was unneccessary as that makes you come off as you accuse Jesse of being, an overzealous enforcer. Just food for thought.

BDT

Joey_V

TroyD wrote:

Well, here's the thing though.....can the outlay in expense be justified by, at the most, a handful of recordings?

BDT

That's the other part of the equation... whether it is worth it. To some, as evident on audiogon, multichannel is worth it so much so that they go all out in not only their mains, but also their rears and center. I guess, it's all relative and remains truly dependent on one's budget and financial well-being.

To me, I dont have the means to go reference multichannel. I'm barely even making my way to "complete" my 2ch rig to worry about multichannel.