What a bunch of Bullsh!t

up2youjoe

Jstas,

See post #25...

jdhdiggs

I reread the article and whole heartedly agree with John. This guy found out recently and quite the Marines. If true, I can't find anything wrong with his actions. However, if this just becomes a convienent excuse, well...

markmarc

I wonder if a middle ground can be found? What if the medicine man served as a medical corpsman?

Personally, I don't blame anyone for standing up for their rights. But they must be weighed against one's promised/legal commitments.

For all those who scream for him to leave the country, remember, there is a whole lot more to any story than what one article or news report says.

snow

Jstas wrote:

Obviously my words are lost on this crowd. It's just not as simple as everyone is making it out to be. A Medicine Man is not something one can just stand up one day and say I am a Medicine Man. Also, if he was to be regonized as a Hand Trembler, the gift would need to be investigated first. Who should investigate it? I would think that the tribe elders would have more insight than a pig-headed government official. The tribes take things like this very seriously. They consider it an honor and do not give it out lightly.

Timing may be a question. The media's biased reporting may also be a factor. However, that does not excuse the attitudes exhibited here. The remarks in this thread are discriminatory and they do not consider the basic human rights afforded protection by the constitution. Would this be any different if it was a black guy or an Asian guy or even an Indian?

As far as the political beliefs about assimilating people. Way to go there champ! It's easy to spout off at the mouth about things you know nothing about when you are on the side that isn't disadvantaged. I'd like to see you switch places and walk in his shoes for a while. Then we'll see how strong your opinions really are. Hell, most of the ignorant people he comes in to contact with probably think he's a Mexican.

The issue I'm trying to point out here is not the scruples of the soldier nor his tribal elders. It is not the timing, scruples and bias of the media. It is not the military's willingness to "rollover" on this one and let it happen. The issue is the bigotry exhibited by a number of people in this thread and it's basis in ignorance. Several people, including myself, have tried to remove the ignorance through education of the situation yet the hostility doesn't go away, it just gets transferred to those who are defending the situation.

This is the last time I'm posting in this thread. This guy doesn't have an easy cop-out. A warrior is just as respected and revered as a Medicine Man in that soldier's culture. A warrior fights for his nation. A warrior brings honor to his tribe and brings even greater honor if he perishes in battle for his nation. Those are high ideals. If his tribal elders did not believe that he really had this gift, they would not fight for his conscientious objection nor would they allow him to leave his duty as a soldier. This is not merely some guy having an excuse to buck the system. This is a serious matter based on religious beliefs that are real. Wether anyone here at Club Polk considers them real or not is immaterial. Bashing an entire culture and race of people because of those religious beliefs and calling them inferior in so many words because they were "conquered" is disgusting in this day and age. So go ahead and remain in blissful ignorance. You look like an **** because of your words and behavior and even more so when others have tried to show you the error of your ways.

one members signature sums it up nicely. (YOU CANT FIX STUPID) no amount of reason is going to change some peoples minds they cant see past there bigotry. REGARDS SNOW

cfrizz

Very good intelligent post John.

Unless someone here on the board is a Native American who knows the facts of what it takes to become a medicine man, who are any of us to say/judge?

All we know for sure is that their way of living & beliefs are different from our own. And we all know how the majority tends to act whenever others believe & act differently from the majority.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. What a shame.

POLKOHOLIC

Joe, I hope you stop utilizing your **** for a source of intelligence...

Bill Ayotte

Jstas wrote:

Obviously my words are lost on this crowd. It's just not as simple as everyone is making it out to be. A Medicine Man is not something one can just stand up one day and say I am a Medicine Man. Also, if he was to be regonized as a Hand Trembler, the gift would need to be investigated first. Who should investigate it? I would think that the tribe elders would have more insight than a pig-headed government official. The tribes take things like this very seriously. They consider it an honor and do not give it out lightly.

Timing may be a question. The media's biased reporting may also be a factor. However, that does not excuse the attitudes exhibited here. The remarks in this thread are discriminatory and they do not consider the basic human rights afforded protection by the constitution. Would this be any different if it was a black guy or an Asian guy or even an Indian?

As far as the political beliefs about assimilating people. Way to go there champ! It's easy to spout off at the mouth about things you know nothing about when you are on the side that isn't disadvantaged. I'd like to see you switch places and walk in his shoes for a while. Then we'll see how strong your opinions really are. Hell, most of the ignorant people he comes in to contact with probably think he's a Mexican.

The issue I'm trying to point out here is not the scruples of the soldier nor his tribal elders. It is not the timing, scruples and bias of the media. It is not the military's willingness to "rollover" on this one and let it happen. The issue is the bigotry exhibited by a number of people in this thread and it's basis in ignorance. Several people, including myself, have tried to remove the ignorance through education of the situation yet the hostility doesn't go away, it just gets transferred to those who are defending the situation.

This is the last time I'm posting in this thread. This guy doesn't have an easy cop-out. A warrior is just as respected and revered as a Medicine Man in that soldier's culture. A warrior fights for his nation. A warrior brings honor to his tribe and brings even greater honor if he perishes in battle for his nation. Those are high ideals. If his tribal elders did not believe that he really had this gift, they would not fight for his conscientious objection nor would they allow him to leave his duty as a soldier. This is not merely some guy having an excuse to buck the system. This is a serious matter based on religious beliefs that are real. Wether anyone here at Club Polk considers them real or not is immaterial. Bashing an entire culture and race of people because of those religious beliefs and calling them inferior in so many words because they were "conquered" is disgusting in this day and age. So go ahead and remain in blissful ignorance. You look like an **** because of your words and behavior and even more so when others have tried to show you the error of your ways.

I agree with you 100%. It was kind of disheartening to see some of the remarks made on this thread. Timing will always be called into question in cases like this, that is just the way it is. I like the paragraph about most people thinking he is a Mexican. I have witnessed an ignorant **** do that to a Native American's face, and that was not a pretty sight. It is probably better that he got out of the military, as he was probably referred to as tanto on a regular basis by all of the rednecks anyway. I think getting out of the military improved his quality of life overall.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. What a shame.

shack

Bill Ayotte wrote:

It was kind of disheartening to see some of the remarks made on this thread.

And then you come up with :

Bill Ayotte wrote:

It is probably better that he got out of the military, as he was probably referred to as tanto on a regular basis by all of the rednecks anyway. I think getting out of the military improved his quality of life overall.

You been hanging out with John Kerry?

up2youjoe

POLKOHOLIC wrote:

Joe, I hope you stop utilizing your **** for a source of intelligence...

See post #11

Bill Ayotte

The military is an interesting place. It really is it's own little society. There is a lot of racism in the military still, and the Marines are well renowned for being the ringleaders. This guy probably got harassed on a daily basis for being a Native American, so I think that getting away from that culture is most likely a good thing. It is also kind of hard to convey sarcasm through a keyboard sometimes.

You been hanging out with John Kerry?

Yeah, of course. According to him, I must be the dumbest **** on earth. I've spent 30 months in combat. I think that certifies me as straight retarded according to his standards.

exalted512

up2youjoe wrote:

I couldn't give a rats **** what they thought when the white man conquered them. They lost. Tough ****. Your conquered, you now live by OUR rules.

Maybe I should just go to your house, shoot you in the face along with the rest of your family?

You just got conquered. If you think what happened to the Native Americans was much different than that, youre terribly wrong. The fact of the matter is Native Americans didnt ask the french, the bristish, and the spaniards to get on boats and come to the Native Americans home land and keep pushing them west until they wanted that too, then forced them to go into Oklahoma.

Youre an idiot, and theres not much more to that. How the hell do you know hes not a medicine man? I'm part Indian and I know what it takes to become a Medicine Man and I highly highly doubt that it was to get out of going to the Marines. Youre not born into it, its a gift that you get. It has to come sometime, this time it came before he was getting deployed. You call it convenient, I call it the luck of draw.

ben62670 wrote:

If you live in this country you should be willing to fight for it. If not get out! Send them out with a free one way ticket with a no return policy.

They already fought for it once and got almost entirely wiped out. Like I said before, they were here long before there was an america. They were here around 15000 BC. Columbus got here in 1492...
-Cody

Bill Ayotte

Music is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it

nice signature.

ben62670

exalted512 wrote:

Maybe I should just go to your house, shoot you in the face along with the rest of your family?

You just got conquered. If you think what happened to the Native Americans was much different than that, you're terribly wrong. The fact of the matter is Native Americans didn't ask the French, the British, and the Spaniards to get on boats and come to the Native Americans home land and keep pushing them west until they wanted that too, then forced them to go into Oklahoma.

You're an idiot, and theres not much more to that. How the hell do you know hes not a medicine man? I'm part Indian and I know what it takes to become a Medicine Man and I highly highly doubt that it was to get out of going to the Marines. You're not born into it, its a gift that you get. It has to come sometime, this time it came before he was getting deployed. You call it convenient, I call it the luck of draw.



They already fought for it once and got almost entirely wiped out. Like I said before, they were here long before there was an America. They were here around 15000 BC. Columbus got here in 1492...
-Cody

Did you read my previous post? How I thought Indians got screwed.
How long ago was it that they lost this country?
Who would have taken over this country if it wasn't us( the greatest country in the world)?
The farm land sucks, but have you seen the Casinos?
So is there any documentation of his "gift" a letter, anything prior to deployment papers?
Like I said before what we have here to work on is just what has been presented to us by the media.

I'm not Paul Harvey Good Day!

up2youjoe

"Maybe I should just go to your house, shoot you in the face along with the rest of your family?"

Are you threatening me?

I could say your acting like a savage but I don't want to be called a racist.

The so called Medicine man is a coward. Thats my opinion. You don't like it? I don't care. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Bill Ayotte

up2youjoe wrote:

Are you threatening me?

snow

up2youjoe wrote:

"Maybe I should just go to your house, shoot you in the face along with the rest of your family?"

Are you threatening me?

I could say your acting like a savage but I don't want to be called a racist.

The so called Medicine man is a coward. Thats my opinion. You don't like it? I don't care. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

i dont believe anyone is threating anybody, read the rest of his post. if you didnt notice there is a ? mark at the end of his statement. as far as some your other statements go they truly are racist. as far as being a coward goes when you sign up and go to war then you may have the right to call someone else a coward. until that point go crawl back into whatever hole you came from. REGARDS SNOW

exalted512

ben62670 wrote:

Did you read my previous post? How I thought Indians got screwed.
How long ago was it that they lost this country?
Who would have taken over this country if it wasn't us( the greatest country in the world)?
The farm land sucks, but have you seen the Casinos?
So is there any documentation of his "gift" a letter, anything prior to deployment papers?
Like I said before what we have here to work on is just what has been presented to us by the media.

I'm not Paul Harvey Good Day!

Sorry, i didnt mean to lash out at you or anything. Just ignorant people like the starter of this thread tend to get me worked up, especially when talking about my ethnicity.

But to answer your question, they only lost it a few hundred years ago, but in the scope of things, thats not very long considering how long they were here before.

Usually theres not a whole lot of paperwork that goes along with becoming a medicine man. Its not like you fill out a form and they send you a letter of acceptance kind of thing. Most of it, if not all, is completely verbal.
-Cody

exalted512

up2youjoe wrote:

"Maybe I should just go to your house, shoot you in the face along with the rest of your family?"

Are you threatening me?

I could say your acting like a savage but I don't want to be called a racist.

The so called Medicine man is a coward. Thats my opinion. You don't like it? I don't care. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Take it how you want it.

Your childish responses are enough for everyone on this forum to see how idiotic you are, and they more responses you provide, the less doubt is instilled into everyones minds that youre a complete idiot, so i urge you, please keep posting.

The worst part is your judging someone youve never met over a cultural belief that you know know nothing about. I think that takes the cake.
-Cody

cfrizz

All I can say to you Up2youjoe, is UP YOURS!

One more ignorant moron to go on my ignore list!

Lsi9

cfrizz wrote:

All I can say to you Up2youjoe, is UP YOURS!

hehe

ben62670

No problem I didn't feel like I was being lashed out on.
There was an accident where a motor cycle and a tractor trailer collided.
there where a bunch of people there. Some were motorcyclist, and there where some truckers in the crowd. Most everyone saw the accident happen because of the skidding leading up to the accident. When the police interviewed the crowd the motorcyclists said that the trucker just cut him off like he didn't care for the biker. The truckers said that the biker was being a reckless punk. Where you come from, and who you are will subconsciously sway anyones decision.
Truth of the matter none of us know the truth.

I'm still not Paul Harvey
Good Day

up2youjoe

snow wrote:

as far as being a coward goes when you sign up and go to war then you may have the right to call someone else a coward. REGARDS SNOW

Been there done that. Got my helicopter shot out from under my @ss. They gave me another helicopter....my hands shook so bad the first flight we thought a blade was bad until I realized it was me.

Maybe I'm a medicine man??????

He's a coward.

snow

hey Up2youjoe it looks like in this thread that you are the minority. how does it feel to be conquered.? verbally and in public oppinion? the only people that feel the need to belittle others as a race are insecure in themselves. if you feel that this marine is a coward then you are entitled to your oppinion. obviously the marines felt he had a valid case or they would not have granted him his request. i nor anyone here i am sure has all the facts. its hard to come to an informed desicion without those facts. learn something from all this if you can. dont jump to conclusions without weighing all sides of a story. trust me indians arent cowards as a race. read your history a little. but please dont use this forum as a place to profuse racist beliefs or oppinions. it wont fly. america is made up of many colors not only white. one of the biggest reasons why the pilgrims came here to begin with is a desire to be in a place where it was ok to practice there religion. think about it before you attempt to deny someone else there right to do the same. REGARDS SNOW

Bill Ayotte

up2youjoe wrote:

Been there done that. Got my helicopter shot out from under my @ss. They gave me another helicopter....my hands shook so bad the first flight we thought a blade was bad until I realized it was me.

Blackhawk?

snow

up2youjoe wrote:

Been there done that. Got my helicopter shot out from under my @ss. They gave me another helicopter....my hands shook so bad the first flight we thought a blade was bad until I realized it was me.

Maybe I'm a medicine man??????

He's a coward.

Maybe I'm a medicine man??????
no your a racist with a learning disabilty. the funny thing is joe that if you were indeed a helicopter piliot and you served in the military is that you were fighting for one of the rights that we in america have. the right to practice any religion we want. and everyone is entitled to these rights. and now that you feel that tallman is a coward on a (personal level.) you want to take away his right to practice his. and belittle an entire race of people with racial comments, that is sad. i feel sorry for you it must be tough waking up and going to bed with that kind of attitude. REGARDS SNOW

exalted512

Heres a picture of me:D

the style of dance is called Grass Dancing, originally, the yarn you see now was sweet grass. It is originally from the migratory tribe of the Lakota (or at least thats the most believed version) of the now N and S Dakota.

I am currently 2nd in the nation in that style of dance. The picture was taken while on stage in front of 8000 people. Not much else like doing the splits in front of that many viewers.
-Cody

snow

exalted512 wrote:

Heres a picture of me:D

the style of dance is called Grass Dancing, originally, the yarn you see now was sweet grass. It is originally from the migratory tribe of the Lakota (or at least thats the most believed version) of the now N and S Dakota.

I am currently 2nd in the nation in that style of dance. The picture was taken while on stage in front of 8000 people. Not much else like doing the splits in front of that many viewers.
-Cody[/QUOTE nice pic. REGARDS SNOW

POLKOHOLIC

Joe, you lost. Tough ****. You're conquered...now you live by our rules. Schmuck.

:rolleyes:

I wish I knew who you were so I could kick the **** out of you. And even after doing that you would still be full of ****.

POLKOHOLIC

btw...300th Post - WOOHOO! :P

snow

here is a few facts concerning native americans and fighting for america. It is estimated that more than 12,000 American Indians served in the United States military in World War I. Approximately 600 Oklahoma Indians, mostly Chotaw and Cherokee, were assigned to the 142nd Infantry of the 36th Texas-Oklahoma National Guard Division. The 142nd saw action in France and its soldiers were widely recognized for their contributions in battle. Four men from this unit were awarded the Croix de Guerre, while others received the Church War Cross for gallantry. The outbreak of World War II brought American Indians warriors back to the battlefield in defense of their homeland. Although now eligible for the draft by virtue of the Snyder Act, which gave citizenship to American Indians in 1924, conscription alone does not account for the disproportionate number of Indians who joined the armed services. More than 44,000 American Indians, out of a total Native American population of less than 350,000, served with distinction between 1941 and 1945 in both European and Pacific theaters of war. Battle-experienced American Indian troops from World War II were joined by newly recruited Native Americans to fight Communist aggression during the Korean conflict. The Native American's strong sense of patriotism and courage emerged once again during the Vietnam era. More than 42,000 Native Americans, more than 90 percent of them volunteers, fought in Vietnam. Native American contributions in United States military combat continued in the 1980s and 1990s as they saw duty in Grenada, Panama, Somalia, and the Persian Gulf. As As the 20th century comes to a close, there are nearly 190,000 Native American military veterans. It is well recognized that, historically, Native Americans have the highest record of service per capita when compared to other ethnic groups. The reasons behind this disproportionate contribution are complex and deeply rooted in traditional American Indian culture. In many respects, Native Americans are no different from others who volunteer for military service. They do, however, have distinctive cultural values which drive them to serve their country. One such value is their proud warrior tradition. So joe before you start running down an entire group of people and there way of life, think about it first. REGARDS SNOW