What a bunch of Bullsh!t

up2youjoe

Yeah, my hands might tremble too if you told me I was going to Iraq. But I would go since I VOLUNTEERED.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,247420,00.html

Of course the whole "Indian nation" crap is a bunch of B.S.

Flame on

PolkWannabie

up2youjoe wrote:

Of course the whole "Indian nation" crap is a bunch of B.S.

That's probably what they said about the white man when they showed up too ...

mrbigbluelight

"Tallman's mother, Nora, said she's proud of her son for standing up for his beliefs and looks forward to him joining other hand tremblers on the reservation."


AKA "The Circle Jerk Society".

phipiper10

Indian nations are an interesting topic and for the purpose of stirring the pot....

The idea of taking a large population of people and assigning them some (virtually useless from an agricultural perspective ) land in some high desert plain wasn't really that nice.

So greed and hubris cost the US in the long run AGAIN and Indians and Indian Nations now have some interesting laws surrounding their lives and sustainability. The US Gov't provided this out of guilt and to make wrongs right so to speak.

The opinions stated above are not those of phipiper10 or his kin but rather a fictional character who stirs pots.

I just saw my local hand trembler and I'm cured of upgraditis! Check it out!

petrym

I have had hand trembles too, it called a hangover.

MacLeod

Well I guess I should applaud him for doing it thru the system. I suppose he couldve been a total coward and ran off to Canada.

BobMcG

up2youjoe wrote:

Of course the whole "Indian nation" crap is a bunch of B.S.

IMO your crap is a bunch of bliss.

Ignorance is bliss.

up2youjoe

PolkWannabie wrote:

That's probably what they said about the white man when they showed up too ...

I couldn't give a rats **** what they thought when the white man conquered them. They lost. Tough ****. Your conquered, you now live by OUR rules.

Jstas

Well, I gotta stick my nose in. I'm by no means an expert but the vast majority of "Indian Nations" in this country are exactly that, Indian Nations (for lack of a better or PC term). Most of the reservations are self governed and operate much the same way a protectorate of the United States would operate. There are differences and exceptions though. They are not above the law or beyond it, just a different flavor of it.

However, Medicine Men are considered an equivalent to religious clergy. Sure, the guy might be scared and I know that sure as ****, I'd be too. However, since he is a Medicine Man and they are often integral to what the "Indian Nation" follows as what we would know in more traditional standards as a religion or at least a set of idealogical beliefs, he does qualify for being a contientious objector. However, this does not mean that he will not serve. This means that he will be stationed at a station in a non-combat zone. That doesn't necessarily mean he won't go to Iraq either. It just means that he will not be required to fire a gun in anger in a combat zone.

Medicine Men are healers both physically and spiritually and the set of beliefs that they choose to govern thier lives by pretty much says that they will help promote life, not destroy it. Preaching about how much of a coward a guy is because he used a legal avenue to protect his own belief system that he bases his life on is not only ignorant, it's insulting. It's insulting for many reasons because one of the tenents this country was founded on was a freedom of religion. Countless men and women have given thier lives the world over for that ideal. Just because this Navajo chose to exercise his right to contientious objection doesn't make him a coward. Hell, if the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was actually regonized by the U.S. Government as a valid and established religion, the laws of the U.S. would be subjected to that belief system too. That is what makes this country great and all of those who died to protect that right are slapped in the face when an honest man can't get the respect he deserves for standing up for his convictions and beliefs

I'll put it this way, would anyone object to a Catholic Priest or a Methodist Minister exercising his right of contientious objection? It's unlikely. Hell, even doctors can make a case for it and no one damns them to hell for it.

I don't care what nation the guy belongs to. He can be Navajo, Sioux, Creek or whatever. If he is a Medicine Man and stands up for his beliefs, I stand behind him in full support. These nations were here long before us and they are made up of a noble people with great customs, traditions and wisdom in thier culture. They are fascinating people and it is a testament to thier integrity as a people that they have been able to tolerate the situation that has been foisted upon them. A little research should be done before such arrogant comments are made about people with equal rights and priviledges as any one of us.

I agree with BobMcG.

BobMcG

up2youjoe wrote:

I couldn't give a rats **** what they thought when the white man conquered them. They lost. Tough ****. Your conquered, you now live by OUR rules.

My, what an intelligent and well informed opinion expressed so admirably.

BTW: "You're" conquered not "Your" conquered would be the correct form and use of the word in that context. Maybe even a well thought out "You have been conquered" would have been even more fitting.

Lets take a closer look at the eloquent statement above. First the whole Indian culture is them and they. Next the culture is your (you're) and you. Are you addressing a civilization or a person?


Little does it matter though because now I know all I need to know about you.

up2youjoe

Ignorance may be bliss but liberalism is a mental disorder.

The Indian nations inside our nation should be immediately disbanded. Handshaking medicine man is a coward and a fraud.

audiobliss

I'm stunned. That was by far the nicest essay I've ever read from Jstas; it was thorough, explanatory, and decisively won the debate, while having ZERO overtones of condescension or anything but patient explanation.

up2youjoe - Have you even read any of the responses?

BobMcG

Thanks John for an excellent, well thought out post.

I was trying to be as kind as possible and made the decision to refrain from jumping into the politics of this with both feet. Many of you guys know the cord this type of attitude coupled with remarks made with an immeasurable lack of information will strike in me.

Those who don't know......


BTW: Being a Conservative Republican, your last point is lost on me up2. Perhaps you should lay off the "Savage Nation" for a while.

up2youjoe

BobMcG wrote:

My, what an intelligent and well informed opinion expressed so admirably.

BTW: "You're" conquered not "Your" conquered would be the correct form and use of the word in that context. Maybe even a well thought out "You have been conquered" would have been even more fitting.

Lets take a closer look at the eloquent statement above. First the whole Indian culture is them and they. Next the culture is your (you're) and you. Are you addressing a civilization or a person?




Little does it matter though because now I know all I need to know about you.

Thanks for the grammar lesson. Doesn't change the fact that the liberals who thought up the ridiculous treaty to allow the Indians to have their own governing nations within our nation are probably the ancestors of people running The New York Times and The L.A. Times. Nothing but a bunch of pansy **** appeasers with no answers. Phony medicine man should have had his **** kicked all the way to Iraq.

BobMcG

BobMcG wrote:

My, what an intelligent and well informed opinion expressed so admirably.


Little does it matter though because now I know all I need to know about you.

How appropriate once again. (Followed by a big yawn.)

Well, you really did it.... made me so bored I've had to move on to other things that have a much better chance of actually stimulating my brain.

mrbigbluelight

up2youjoe wrote:

Thanks for the grammar lesson. Doesn't change the fact that the liberals who thought up the ridiculous treaty to allow the Indians to have their own governing nations within our nation are probably the ancestors of people running The New York Times and The L.A. Times. Nothing but a bunch of pansy **** appeasers with no answers. Phony medicine man should have had his **** kicked all the way to Iraq.

The ridiculous treaties were actually a long-range government policy to exterminate native Americans.
The government gave them lands that were poor or, if decent, out of the way of the civilized world. If anything valuable were subsequently discoveried on those out of the way lands, then the government could merely move the native Americans to less valuable lands. Black Hills comes to mind.

My problem, if any, is with Tallman's sudden awareness of his Medicine Man calling.
If true, more power to him.
If not, than shame on him.

beardog03

what the hell ...

does this have to do with Audio....?


aww nevermind..
Carry on gents.....if ya must..

ben62670

I absolutely agree that Indians got screwed hard, but I have discovered I'm a medicine man all of a sudden. Come on cut the crap. Next thing you know people are going to become Budist all of a sudden, and so on ,and so on, and so on....

What about Catholics who believe thou shalt not kill?

If you live in this country you should be willing to fight for it. If not get out! Send them out with a free one way ticket with a no return policy. Go move to some cheese eating surrender monkey country like ______. Thats 6 blanks to fill in. If you live in this country your are not Red Black or White you are an American.

up2youjoe

mrbigbluelight wrote:

The ridiculous treaties were actually a long-range government policy to exterminate native Americans.
The government gave them lands that were poor or, if decent, out of the way of the civilized world. If anything valuable were subsequently discoveried on those out of the way lands, then the government could merely move the native Americans to less valuable lands. .

You mean like when we moved all the "colored folk" into the projects? Same idea, same results. Never should have happened.

Refefer

up2youjoe wrote:

I couldn't give a rats **** what they thought when the white man conquered them. They lost. Tough ****. Your conquered, you now live by OUR rules.

Own many slaves up2youjoe?

up2youjoe

Not as many as some of our former Presidents.

PolkWannabie

up2youjoe wrote:

I couldn't give a rats **** what they thought when the white man conquered them. They lost. Tough ****. Your conquered, you now live by OUR rules.

That's not usually how this works ... remember why the founders came here ? ... They were conquered and didn't want to follow the rules ...

Bill Ayotte

There are a lot of people who try this now, and I have witnessed a lot of it in the past five years. It is a long drawn out process, and in many cases they still end up there until their case is actually resolved in one way or another. Remember that until sept 11, you could spend 20+ years in the armed forces and never have to actually fight. When I went over for OEF 1, my 1SG with 21 years in the military was going on his 1st deployment with me, having 7 months in service. There are plenty of people who decided that they have beliefs against fighting that were in before all of this started. I still think that they are pretty stupid, considering there is always a chance that they may actually have to fight.
Now the special people who joined after sept 11 and now mystically figure out that they object to the war on whatever grounds really need to be sent over just for GP. I really don't believe "I never thought it would happen to me" either. I know the recruiter didn't lie to you, and now I assume you are just a moron. Don't focus on his spiritual background or his ethnicity because there are a lot of people that pull this, he just got press coverage.

I really don't like the whole EMO kid movement, but a song title caught my eye the other day; The only difference between martyrdom and suicide is press coverage

This is really ringing true now days, huh?

Jstas

Wow. I guess everyone is missing the point that he is a Medicine Man. You don't get to chose that, you are chosen for it and to become a Medicine Man with good mecicine, you basically need the backing of the tribe elders.

If he was coming up with some baloney story then yes, I would say he's ducking service. However, his "religion" recognized him as have a gift and bestowed on him the honor of being a Medicine Man. That's a very important thing. Just because you are unaware and don't understand what this man is going through doesn't mean that he and his people don't believe it is real. Nor does it mean that those of us who don't subscribe to his belief system should be cutting him down because he does believe it.

But I guess Freedom of Religion means nothing anymore. I'm glad I don't subscibe to a religion that everyone here thinks is a crock of ****. I'd hate to be discriminated against for such things.

up2youjoe

Jstas wrote:

Wow. I guess everyone is missing the point that he is a Medicine Man. You don't get to chose that, you are chosen for it and to become a Medicine Man with good mecicine, you basically need the backing of the tribe elders.

QUOTE]


He is a crock of ****. He ain't no medicine man, he is a coward. Amazing how his hand began to shake when he found out he was going to Iraq. I hope he gets zero benefits from the government. Too bad he can't be charged for all the expenses he wasted while "serving".

dkg999

Jstas - I think you made good and valid points, and yes the Native American religious beliefs are some of the purest and most interesting around. It just seems the timing of his "revelation" seems a bit questionable, although like other stories, the timing may be a distortion of our media. The religious beliefs of our media and how they translate into ethical behaviour are more in question than this young man's actions IMHO.

phipiper10

up2youjoe wrote:

Jstas wrote:

I hope he gets zero benefits from the government. Too bad he can't be charged for all the expenses he wasted while "serving".

It's a good idea, too bad we couldn't apply the same to our president. That would make the tremblers expenses seem awfully small.:eek:

I really try to stay away from the political stuff but couldn't resist the above. For the record I think the trembler and his grandad are full of it.

ben62670

Jstas wrote:

Wow. I guess everyone is missing the point that he is a Medicine Man. You don't get to chose that, you are chosen for it and to become a Medicine Man with good mecicine, you basically need the backing of the tribe elders.

So he gets some elders to figure out that he is a medicine man after he has been away, and going off to war. .
Did I mention I have a bridge for sale?
So we all know whats going on from a little media spat.

mrbigbluelight

up2youjoe wrote:

You mean like when we moved all the "colored folk" into the projects? Same idea, same results. Never should have happened.

The difference is that the Native Americans were ....uhm ...."native" to this country when we showed up.
African-Americans were brought here from .... uhm .... Africa.

African-Americans were promised 40 acres and a mule by the government.
The government followed up on that promise in the same manner as they followed the Indian treaties.

jdhdiggs

Wow, my only problem is that when he became a Medicine Man, he didn't remove himself from the service. That seems fairly dishonest when you're working for an employer and after the employer trains you, pays you for years and it comes time to do your job, you say "nope, it's against my religion". At best, the guy was dishonest and used the system to it's fullest, at worst he used his connections to invent a reason to stay home.

I guess my only point is, if he can't do his job in the marines, he shouldn't be a marine. Beyond that, who cares.

Jstas

Obviously my words are lost on this crowd. It's just not as simple as everyone is making it out to be. A Medicine Man is not something one can just stand up one day and say I am a Medicine Man. Also, if he was to be regonized as a Hand Trembler, the gift would need to be investigated first. Who should investigate it? I would think that the tribe elders would have more insight than a pig-headed government official. The tribes take things like this very seriously. They consider it an honor and do not give it out lightly.

Timing may be a question. The media's biased reporting may also be a factor. However, that does not excuse the attitudes exhibited here. The remarks in this thread are discriminatory and they do not consider the basic human rights afforded protection by the constitution. Would this be any different if it was a black guy or an Asian guy or even an Indian?

As far as the political beliefs about assimilating people. Way to go there champ! It's easy to spout off at the mouth about things you know nothing about when you are on the side that isn't disadvantaged. I'd like to see you switch places and walk in his shoes for a while. Then we'll see how strong your opinions really are. Hell, most of the ignorant people he comes in to contact with probably think he's a Mexican.

The issue I'm trying to point out here is not the scruples of the soldier nor his tribal elders. It is not the timing, scruples and bias of the media. It is not the military's willingness to "rollover" on this one and let it happen. The issue is the bigotry exhibited by a number of people in this thread and it's basis in ignorance. Several people, including myself, have tried to remove the ignorance through education of the situation yet the hostility doesn't go away, it just gets transferred to those who are defending the situation.

This is the last time I'm posting in this thread. This guy doesn't have an easy cop-out. A warrior is just as respected and revered as a Medicine Man in that soldier's culture. A warrior fights for his nation. A warrior brings honor to his tribe and brings even greater honor if he perishes in battle for his nation. Those are high ideals. If his tribal elders did not believe that he really had this gift, they would not fight for his conscientious objection nor would they allow him to leave his duty as a soldier. This is not merely some guy having an excuse to buck the system. This is a serious matter based on religious beliefs that are real. Wether anyone here at Club Polk considers them real or not is immaterial. Bashing an entire culture and race of people because of those religious beliefs and calling them inferior in so many words because they were "conquered" is disgusting in this day and age. So go ahead and remain in blissful ignorance. You look like an **** because of your words and behavior and even more so when others have tried to show you the error of your ways.