SACD vs Redbook impressions...

SLOCOOKN

Not that I was expecting a miracle or anything....But I found out mine is PCM...That sucks:(.....Thanks for the good info shack!

heiney9

pblanc wrote:

Not all SACDs are created equally. In some, the engineering masters really capture the potential of the format and its inherent advantages, and in other cases they don't. When they don't, a high end CDP wll no doubt sound better. But when they do, the inherent superiority of the SACD format can more than cancel out the difference in quality of the electronics.

So magically, inferior electronics can be overcome by a little bit of extra resolution and a knowledgeable mastering engineer . That's never been my experience.

Shack, I get what you are saying and I am probably taking my bias to the extreme, so our thinking is really more convergent rather than divergent. SACD format is formidable when done correctly and played on a dedicated machine. Most of my comments were for those who believe that SACD is superior to redbook no matter what.

You guys have got my juices flowing so I may go out and get a good mid-level SACD player and some of what is considered better SACD titles and do a very critical shoot-out for myself. Of course finding stellar redbook cd's that correspond to stellar SACD's might be a bit of a challenge.

H9

shack

heiney9 wrote:

So magically, inferior electronics can be overcome by a little bit of extra resolution and a knowledgeable mastering engineer . That's never been my experience.

This may be a little of where you are getting hung up. In today's digitalized transistor and chip world the simlarities between the high dollar reference CDP and the average CDP are much greater than the differences. A cap here, a chip set there, a clock here and they are very close. Many of the high end and low production CDPs are based off of Sony and Philips transports and boards. The current be all - end all player seems to be the Oppo which gets raves from every quarter. Granted, a lot is the "look what you get for $150 - $200" stuff but there are those who swear it betters most anything available today. The truth and reality is somewhere in between I guess. I have had several average SACD players go through my rig. Some better that others. I currently have one that cost less than $200 street that with about $100 worth of parts is now a player I would stack up against some of the best I've heard. It's not THE best...but it is pretty damn good.

Like you said...we really are closer than apart in our opinions. I like SACD beacuse it is music that for the most part can sound very good with modest gear and without constant tweeking. I wish there was more of it and take every opportunity to "preach". Maybe one day I'll be in Ted and F1's league and get me one of those really nice SACD players....

snow

shack wrote:

This may be a little of where you are getting hung up. In today's digitalized transistor and chip world the simlarities between the high dollar reference CDP and the average CDP are much greater than the differences. A cap here, a chip set there, a clock here and they are very close. Many of the high end and low production CDPs are based off of Sony and Philips transports and boards. The current be all - end all player seems to be the Oppo which gets raves from every quarter. Granted, a lot is the "look what you get for $150 - $200" stuff but there are those who swear it betters most anything available today. The truth and reality is somewhere in between I guess. I have had several average SACD players go through my rig. Some better that others. I currently have one that cost less than $200 street that with about $100 worth of parts is now a player I would stack up against some of the best I've heard. It's not THE best...but it is pretty damn good.

Like you said...we really are closer than apart in our opinions. I like SACD beacuse it is music that for the most part can sound very good with modest gear and without constant tweeking. I wish there was more of it and take every opportunity to "preach". Maybe one day I'll be in Ted and F1's league and get me one of those really nice SACD players....

well ill throw my 2 cents into the mix. first off i want to say great thread. well thought out replys to questions and comments by all. and hey its even been civil:p i currently have one of the oppo players mentioned earlier. ilistened to several discs this week on it. CD SACD DVDA. some were hybrid . some were not.i used the analogs ins on my lexicon MC-1 pre-pro in 2 channel only through the 2nd room inputs, so there was no extra conversion going on. the first disc was one by the police. of which i have both a cd and sacd version of. my impression was the sacd version was much better than the cd was. the second disc was a dire straits album which had a cd side a sacd side and a hdcd layer all in multi channel. both the cd side and hdcd side sounded much better than the sacd side did. the 3rd disc was an emerson lake and palmer DVDA which sounded great. the 4th disc was roger waters which i have a dvd of and a sacd of the same. i listened to the sacd first i was not impressed it sounded better but not by much. the reason that i think that the sacd disc didnt sound better perhaps is that it was recorded in 5.1 and i listened to it in 2 channel. the police album being recorded in 2 channel sounded much better in comparison on the sacd version than the dire straits and roger waters did. this may be because the oppo multi player didnt do a great job perhaps in trying to downmix multi channel into 2 channel. im not sure. to sum it all up it seemed that some discs sounded better on cd than sacd. others seem to sound better on sacd if played in the recorded format. so at this time im undecided. my guess is that if its the same material and played in the correct format that most times it will sound better on sacd than cd. and that some cds sound better than other sacds. REGARDS SNOW

F1nut

I've got Dire Straits BIA on every available redbook release including the Hong Kong only release on XRCD. The SACD version is, by far, the best of the lot. Try it in something other than the OPPO.

tonyb

I have Sultans of swing playing right now.Love Dire Straits.Even the redbook is a well recorded cd.Thanks for the tip on the XRCD version.They want 40 bucks for that puppy.I'll dig up the SACD if you say it rocks.

snow

F1nut wrote:

I've got Dire Straits BIA on every available redbook release including the Hong Kong only release on XRCD. The SACD version is, by far, the best of the lot. Try it in something other than the OPPO.

i will do that. i will also get a pre with 5.1 inputs to test the diffrent layers on with the oppo player to see if the sound improves greatly when played in 5.1 rather than it downmixed to 2 channel to see if thats where the problem lies. REGARDS SNOW

hearingimpared

This is a great thread! I'm learning lots. I'm going to have to get me or rent me a good SACD player the check all this out. I just purchased DSOTM and Jazz at the Pawnshop on SACD. After reading this thread the DSOTM disc sounds like it's going to be a bust with the Oppo on 2 ch SACD. I am still really excited to hear 2 ch SACD finally. I will have my turntable up and hopefully running by tomorrow night and can't wait to hear SACD vs vinyl. I realize that the Oppo isn't a high or higher end SACD player. I have a friend (Phil) who is coming over Saturday who has a SACD player that was over the $1k mark who is currently not using it so I'm going to ask him to bring it with him so we can give it a whirl.

F1nut

Tony, the XRCD is better than the redbook DDD CD and I was very happy with it until I got the SACD. There's just more there, there.

Danny Tse

F1nut wrote:

There's just more there, there.

I agree. It's hard to describe, but a good sounding SACD such as Steely Dan's "Gaucho" or Dire Straits' BIA makes listening more pleasurable....even with modest gear.

snow

hearingimpared wrote:

This is a great thread! I'm learning lots. I'm going to have to get me or rent me a good SACD player the check all this out. I just purchased DSOTM and Jazz at the Pawnshop on SACD. After reading this thread the DSOTM disc sounds like it's going to be a bust with the Oppo on 2 ch SACD. I am still really excited to hear 2 ch SACD finally. I will have my turntable up and hopefully running by tomorrow night and can't wait to hear SACD vs vinyl. I realize that the Oppo isn't a high or higher end SACD player. I have a friend (Phil) who is coming over Saturday who has a SACD player that was over the $1k mark who is currently not using it so I'm going to ask him to bring it with him so we can give it a whirl.

the very first sacd i listened to was dsotm on a cheap sony player $250.00 or so retail it took my breath away. i have wanted a sacd player every since. the receiver i had at the time was a sony DA5-ES and Jbl-L100t speakers as mains jbl-L80t3s for sides and jbl-L112s as center and rear surround. decent little home theater system at the time. it will be real interesting to hear your oppinion on the upcoming playoff between the 2 players.i hope you were wowed like i was, when i first heard it on sacd. i have it coming now via amazon now. i will report back then as to how it sounds then on the oppo with a friends adcom 880 pre on 2 channel and multi channel. REGARDS SNOW

dagame27

I am curious as to how this thread proceeds, as I have found a significant difference between sacd and redbook. However I have found this difference on the same playerk, a Sony 9000ES. I may rethink my upgrade path if others do not see a significant difference on their systems. I do believe a DAC is in my future, but I am curious if SACD beats redbook CD on high end systems of both ends. If both SACD and redbook are played on high end rigs, is SACD noticeably better?

F1nut

If both SACD and redbook are played on high end rigs, is SACD noticeably better?

Yes. See my comments on page one.

pblanc

At the risk of being offensive by stating the bloody obvious, I am going to make some comments which might be helpful to those who have never tried SACD. I have found that some of my friends who were dissapointed with SACD really weren't listening to SACD.

First, although SACD has the capability to be a multi-channel format, a good many SACDs are recorded in good, old 2 channel stereo. Second, some disks are hybrid, multilayer recordings that have both a regular Redbook CD layer and an SACD (stereo or multichannel) layer. These disks can be played on either a regular CDP or an SACD player. Third, the output from a Sony SACD player playing an SACD layer is analog only. That means you have to have analog connections to your amp or receiver. If you just have a digital connection, you won't get output from the SACD layer. Fourth, if you just have a stereo L/R analog collection, you can play stereo SACDs but you are going to miss out the extra channel info if you don't have 6 analog interconnects between your player and your receiver, if you play a multichannel SACD. Fifth, you have to set your amp or receiver to "multichannel direct" or "multichannel analog" or "multichannel 5.1 input" or whatever. If you don't, and your SACD player is connected with both 5.1 analog and digital cannections, when you play a hybrid SACD you will be listening to the digital output of the player which will not be the SACD layer. Sixth, most players have the capability to choose to play either the CD layer or the SACD layer. If your player is inadverently set to play the CD layer, you won't be hearing SACD even if you have already done all of the above. Seventh, even if you have balanced all your speakers through your amplifier or receiver, when you hook up your SACD player, you are going to have to go through its menu to teach it your speaker sizes, distances and balance your speaker levels for the player. When you are playing an SACD you are directly outputing the 5.1 analog inputs to your amp section without processing. Last (I know...thank God) SACD does not always do a good job with bass management. If your sub is hooked up via your receiver's LFE output, there may be little, if any info encoded on the subwoofer channel of the SACD. For this reason, I have my full-range speakers set to "large" and I use a pair of small stereo subwoofers hooked up to the L/R front outputs in addition to a larger sub hooked up to the LFE output.

I know most of you know this, but believe me, I have known more than a couple of folks who went out and bought an SACD player, hooked it up with digital interconnects only, or analog stereo interconnects only, didn't balance their speakers, didn't read the instructions, popped in a hybrid CD/SACD, and said "crap, this sounds just like regular CD".

hearingimpared

pblanc wrote:

At the risk of being offensive by stating the bloody obvious, I am going to make some comments which might be helpful to those who have never tried SACD. I have found that some of my friends who were dissapointed with SACD really weren't listening to SACD.

First, although SACD has the capability to be a multi-channel format, a good many SACDs are recorded in good, old 2 channel stereo. Second, some disks are hybrid, multilayer recordings that have both a regular Redbook CD layer and an SACD (stereo or multichannel) layer. These disks can be played on either a regular CDP or an SACD player. Third, the output from a Sony SACD player playing an SACD layer is analog only. That means you have to have analog connections to your amp or receiver. If you just have a digital connection, you won't get output from the SACD layer. Fourth, if you just have a stereo L/R analog collection, you can play stereo SACDs but you are going to miss out the extra channel info if you don't have 6 analog interconnects between your player and your receiver, if you play a multichannel SACD. Fifth, you have to set your amp or receiver to "multichannel direct" or "multichannel analog" or "multichannel 5.1 input" or whatever. If you don't, and your SACD player is connected with both 5.1 analog and digital cannections, when you play a hybrid SACD you will be listening to the digital output of the player which will not be the SACD layer. Sixth, most players have the capability to choose to play either the CD layer or the SACD layer. If your player is inadverently set to play the CD layer, you won't be hearing SACD even if you have already done all of the above. Seventh, even if you have balanced all your speakers through your amplifier or receiver, when you hook up your SACD player, you are going to have to go through its menu to teach it your speaker sizes, distances and balance your speaker levels for the player. When you are playing an SACD you are directly outputing the 5.1 analog inputs to your amp section without processing. Last (I know...thank God) SACD does not always do a good job with bass management. If your sub is hooked up via your receiver's LFE output, there may be little, if any info encoded on the subwoofer channel of the SACD. For this reason, I have my full-range speakers set to "large" and I use a pair of small stereo subwoofers hooked up to the L/R front outputs in addition to a larger sub hooked up to the LFE output.

I know most of you know this, but believe me, I have known more than a couple of folks who went out and bought an SACD player, hooked it up with digital interconnects only, or analog stereo interconnects only, didn't balance their speakers, didn't read the instructions, popped in a hybrid CD/SACD, and said "crap, this sounds just like regular CD".

Oh brother!!! I have an Oppo 970HD. I currently have the digital output going to a Timbre DAC and it sounds good for CDs. I have two ICs connected from the Left & Right RCA outs of the Oppo to my tape loop "in" on my preamp in anticipation of receiving my first SACDs. I was under the impression I could just place the SACD in the tray close it and the Oppo will automatically choose the format. I hope I don't have to go through all the gyrations above to listen to an SACD. I don't mind going through all the set up of a turntable / tonearm/ cartridge combo, that's expected to get the best SQ out of that analog front end. Call me old fashioned but with digital mediums I want to plug it in and enjoy it, not have to tinker with it.

As a matter of fact I've been reading a lot about SACD, HT, etc here in preparation for my two HT systems that I am currently building and frankly I find all these gyrations a little intimidating and I'm and electronics guy.

Oh well that is the way it is, no?

cfrizz

LOL nice reminder PB! I was one of those people way back when! Audio gear set up has gotten so technical & complicated that unless someone puts it in plain english like you just did, you could very well be missing a step!

steveinaz

btw, Shack-master, my DSOTM is a hybrid. The denon was displaying "SACD" while it was playing, so I'm assuming I was hearing the SACD layer. It definitely had a different "character" to the sound vs the 24bit remaster redbook when A/B'ing.

If I had to sum up in 1 word what I heard with the SACD version vs the redbook, it would be "fatter." Almost akin to pressing a "loudness" button on a receiver. Bass was heavier, but not necessarily deeper; midrange more forward; treble (cymbals specifically) a touch more real with the SACD. I will confess the Redbook version was a little more analytical sounding, where the SACD was soft, plump.

Listening again last night, and thinking more about it, I recalled that the Energy C-9 is fairly heavy in mid-bass; and midrange in this speaker is on the cold side of neutral---in SACD's defense. But these characteristics are exactly what help mediocre redbook recordings sound fuller and less 2-dimensional. FWIW.

I think if you had a good quality SACD player, and ran the redbook side into a good external DAC, you'd have a killer combo--if that's what you're after.

F1nut

I will confess the Redbook version was a little more analytical sounding, where the SACD was soft, plump.

Ed Z

Danny Tse

hearingimpared wrote:

I was under the impression I could just place the SACD in the tray close it and the Oppo will automatically choose the format.

If you have a multi-channel hybrid SACD, there're at the minimum 3 versions* of the same album on that one disc....the CD version, the hi-rez 2 channel stereo and the hi-rez multi-channel. The player will not automatically know which version you want to play. However, I would imagine the Oppo will allow you to set a "preference" so that when you insert a SACD, it will play the mix you "prefer".

* Since the Oppo can decode HDCD, it may be possible to play the CD layer, if HDCD-encoded, with or without the decoding....which would give you four versions of the same album on one disc....decoded HDCD, undecoded HDCD, hi-rez 2 channel stereo and hi-rez multi-channel. Of course, this is assuming the HDCD decoding can be turned on/off.

Lsi9

I am wondering while reading this thread if Multichannel music in general is dying out?

Dvd-A sales are lower so that would let you assume that SACD sales are way up but I guess this is not the case?
You guys think these 2 formats are now or soon to be dinosaurs even though they might have superior sound quality?

I have heard SACD and it sounds great but what turns me off is all the set up as well, I wish they would just do 2 channel discs with no hybrid option and be done with it.

Danny Tse

Lsi9 wrote:

I have heard SACD and it sounds great but what turns me off is all the set up as well, I wish they would just do 2 channel discs with no hybrid option and be done with it.

Sony/Philips mandated that every SACD MUST contain a dedicated 2 channel stereo (or mono) mix. In fact, the CD layer and the multi-channel hi-rez mix are entirely optional. As usual, there are a number of "maverick" labels that release SACDs with no 2 channel hi-rez mixes, but those can be counted on the fingers of one hand (out of over 4,300 SACD titles). Look further and you will also notice that the current top-of-the-line SACD players from the likes of Marantz, Denon, and Sony are all 2 channel only machines.

In regards to whether multi-channel music is dying out, I think there are enough audiophiles out there that certain labels (such as Telarc) and artists (such as Tony Banks of Genesis and Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues) are willing to cater to them. For the general public, multi-channel music usually means concert videos, which to me means a whole different thing from studio recordings/creations. Those who dig multi-channel music, as in studio recordings, will always be in the minority.

I hate the complicated setups myself....which is why I am sticking with 2 channel stereo setups. I have a $150.00 Sony SCD-CE595 SACD/CD changer connected to Grado SR60 headphones (using a Technics Pro-Logic receiver as headphone amp) as my headphone system. A couple of setting on the Sony player and it defaults to 2 channel SACD whenever I insert a SACD into it. And only one pair of analog interconnects in the whole setup.

shack

Lsi9 wrote:

I have heard SACD and it sounds great but what turns me off is all the set up as well, I wish they would just do 2 channel discs with no hybrid option and be done with it.

Problem there is you are limiting the market even more. Some like myself only like stereo SACD, others enjoy the multi-channel. If you limit it to one or the other, the format probably is doomed. If the format does indeed fail sometime down the road, at least with hybrid you have some backward compatability. Playing a SACD is easier than playing a DVD. Set your machine default and you're good to go. I know on the Sonys I own all you do is punch a button on the remote it's 2 channel SACD. Punch another it's multi-channel SACD. Put the disc in a non-SACD CDP and it plays redbook. Really very simple.

hearingimpared

Is anyone familiar with the Oppo's setup? I've been using it as a CD transport and have no clue on SACD setup. I'll breakout the user guide. . .I think I remember reading somewhere that it should be connected to a display or a GUI to ease setup.

snow

hearingimpared wrote:

Is anyone familiar with the Oppo's setup? I've been using it as a CD transport and have no clue on SACD setup. I'll breakout the user guide. . .I think I remember reading somewhere that it should be connected to a display or a GUI to ease setup.

yes hook it up via component or hdmi for video. then choose the setup button on the remote. hit the select button when the general set up page appears, use the down arrow button to get to sacd priority. then hit the large select again to select 2 channel. then hit the right arrow button to get to the speaker set up page. hit the large select button again it will light up on down mix. hit the select button again. choose stereo for sacd. turn the center side and rear speakers off with the same method. then choose the right arrow again to get the audio set up page. select digital output to raw. lpcm rate to 192. when you hook up the analog outs. use the mixed L-R outputs rather than the front L-R outputs on the 5.1 outputs also. if you are using an hdmi cable i believe you can output both sacd and DVDA through the hdmi. i dont have that option available myself so i cant say for sure. i hope this helps. REGARDS SNOW

reeltrouble1

Joe,

you will see 6 hole looking things coming from the back of the player, if you want multi-channel plug six connects into the holes then plug the other end of the connect to the receiver/pre which has six corresponding holes. Then run speaker wire to each speaker, they have holes too, well some bind, some spring, so its a hybrid hole. If you only want stereo you only need to worry about the holes for front left and right.

really its about the holes.

Holy Cow.

RT1, and SACD is great.

hearingimpared

snow wrote:

yes hook it up via component or hdmi for video. then choose the setup button on the remote. hit the select button when the general set up page appears, use the down arrow button to get to sacd priority. then hit the large select again to select 2 channel. then hit the right arrow button to get to the speaker set up page. hit the large select button again it will light up on down mix. hit the select button again. choose stereo for sacd. turn the center and rear speaker off with the same method. then choose the right arrow again to get the audio set up page. select digital output to raw. lpcm rate to 192. when you hook up the analog outs. use the mixed L-R outputs rather than the front L-R outputs on the 5.1 outputs also. if you are using an hdmi cable i believe you can output both sacd and DVDA through the hdmi. i dont have that option available myself so i cant say for sure. i hope this helps. REGARDS SNOW

Whooooo there Kimosabe. . . I have a regular TV with no component or hdmi ports. I was hoping to be able to plug my stereo RCA ICs into right & left jacks and go to the tape loop of my preamp and place an SACD in the tray and listen. . . it's not that easy is it.

The projector is in the box and the room is not ready for the HT rig yet in the media room. Only the 2 ch rig is running. The flat screen is a pipe dream right now for me and my wife and won't be in the living room HT rig for a month or two yet.

Thanks Snow for all your help.

hearingimpared

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Joe,

you will see 6 hole looking things coming from the back of the player, if you want multi-channel plug six connects into the holes then plug the other end of the connect to the receiver/pre which has six corresponding holes. Then run speaker wire to each speaker, they have holes too, well some bind, some spring, so its a hybrid hole. If you only want stereo you only need to worry about the holes for front left and right.

really its about the holes.

Holy Cow.

RT1, and SACD is great.

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

snow

hearingimpared wrote:

Whooooo there Kimosabe. . . I have a regular TV with no component or hdmi ports. I was hoping to be able to plug my stereo RCA ICs into right & left jacks and go to the tape loop of my preamp and place an SACD in the tray and listen. . . it's not that easy is it.

The projector is in the box and the room is not ready for the HT rig yet in the media room. Only the 2 ch rig is running. The flat screen is a pipe dream right now for me and my wife and won't be in the living room HT rig for a month or two yet.

Thanks Snow for all your help.

Your welcome joe. i (assumed) that your current display had component or hdmi inputs. in the current set up plug into the regular video output on the oppo. hook the stereo L-R jacks to the mixed L-R outputs not the L-R outputs on the standard 5.1 outputs this way when you get to the options mentioned earlier. it will downmix all 5.1 material to 2 channel stereo and output it through those outputs. i think you can simply plug and play if you wish. but to achieve the best sound its best to go through the setup options mentioned in the first post. of course now through the regular video output. versus the component or hdmi output options. REGARDS SNOW

tonyb

hearingimpared wrote:

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

Now if that ain't a loaded question.......

heiney9

hearingimpared wrote:

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

Since we are talking audio I'd say the one in the rear..........we are talking audio right :eek: