Monitor 12's (One beer, harsh. Two beer, less harsh. Three beer, better!)

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Mother Mooch
Mother Mooch Posts: 129
edited January 2007 in Vintage Speakers
Ok gents, Needs some help...
First off, I know i need to get more juice pumped to these (but what i have for now will have to do 80wpc)
But last night i was feeling like dumping these when i first sat down for a listen! The highs are WAY to bright and the lows seemed to have lost themselves! (first beer) Ok i had some Hendrix on (A merman i shall turn to be) And it wasn't cutting, So i work a little on placement with no help (put them back to were they were) Now my room is 16x16 Carpet covering a cement floor! All walls are concrete with studding and drywall except the wall behind the sytem (long story short, I converted my garage into my living room) So the wall behind the system is the wall where the door used to be! OK phew~! Now that, that's out! Like i was saying High are harsh! I am using a junk jvc CD player coupled to a Yamaha "natural sound" receiver, Plus i have a DBX synthesizer/crossover/bassboost coupled in there as well!
(second beer)
Still harsh, so am standing there looking at these beasts and not thinking good thoughts. I Put my hand over the Tweet and it calmed down the harshness, but way too much! So i think i need to baffle these a bit! So i reach down, Peel off my socks and hang one on each speaker right over the tweeter! WOW.... It clicked! Nice and smooth! no more harshness (little loss of some of the crispness, But MUCH better!
(third beer)
Now i have some Stone temple Pilots in (core) and it was still pleasing my ears, So i thought FINALLY i have found the ticket...
(fourth beer)
Sound is starting to loose it's edge (highs not good enough)
(fifth beer)
Socks come off!

Ok, now that i have bored you!
Is there a way to "choke" these tweets a little without affecting anything?
Maybe a "Cap"? Or rework the crossover? Or should i refine my Sock method? lol...

"Why was it, back in the day. The music counted, Now it's the quality of the sound that counts"?

Am i getting OLD... :)~
Post edited by Mother Mooch on
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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited January 2007
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    Go buy a 30 pack for the weekend.:D
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • Polk65
    Polk65 Posts: 1,405
    edited January 2007
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    more cheese or try dirty socks.

    Please post any nude pics of your speakers. It helps our rhythm.
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  • Polk65
    Polk65 Posts: 1,405
    edited January 2007
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    The tweeter in your M12's should be a black model sl2500. There is a newer tweeter available through Polk Audio. Mention that you are a Club Polk member when you call. Schematics are here http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38755

    What's the distance between the rear of your M12's and the wall?

    Junk in = junk out
    Junk in the middle... why ?
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  • Mother Mooch
    Mother Mooch Posts: 129
    edited January 2007
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    30 pack already bought... :)

    Socks were dirty (and probably had cheese all over them) lol...


    So polk makes a Tweet that is a little softer?

    My 12's are about 2 feet from the corner and 1 and half feet from the back wall!

    Junk in, Junk out, junk all around except the 12's lol... Money talks and Bs walks But Money is something i do not have.... (the old lady took all that) lol...
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  • Mother Mooch
    Mother Mooch Posts: 129
    edited January 2007
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    Can anybody tell me what this "RDE 090 POLYSWITCH" is for?

    And would it hurt too add another 12uf Cap in line?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
    edited January 2007
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    Sorry to say it but junk equipment = harsh, junk results. The most likely problem is the JVC cdp, followed by the Yammy. I know it’s not what you want to hear (sorry for the pun ;) ) but getting a better source will improve the sound a great deal. Also get rid of the signal processor, YUCK. All it does is add more distortion and muck things up. Also I would never try to “patch” a problem by adding electrical components to an already well designed speaker system. Fix the problem at the source (so to speak).

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
    edited January 2007
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    Mother Mooch wrote:
    Can anybody tell me what this "RDE 090 POLYSWITCH" is for?

    And would it hurt too add another 12uf Cap in line?

    The polyswitch is to protect the tweeter's. It cuts the signal to them if distortion/clipping is present.

    I wouldn't mess with the x-over in the speaker, that's not the problem. It's a combo of source components and probably room acoustics and placement. Systems can be sooooo musch fun sometimes :D
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Mother Mooch
    Mother Mooch Posts: 129
    edited January 2007
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    I do agree on not messing with a quality product~!

    Getting rid of the Processor Will be number one!

    Should i EQ?

    I have found out in the last few weeks how much fun this hobby can be...

    So guess my cheapest option right now is "more beer" lol...

    Thanks Gents! :(
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,851
    edited January 2007
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    As usual, H9 is on the money. No to the EQ, get better gear when money permits.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Mother Mooch
    Mother Mooch Posts: 129
    edited January 2007
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    Start with a better amp and pre? Then work up to a better cd player?

    So pretty much, A CD player can still sound like **** even though it's digital?

    Boy do i have a lot to learn...
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,851
    edited January 2007
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    I'd start with better source, garbage in, garbage out. You can then work up from there.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • seo
    seo Posts: 305
    edited January 2007
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    Mother Mooch wrote:
    So pretty much, A CD player can still sound like **** even though it's digital?

    A CD player can sound like sh$t BECAUSE it is digital and not analog.

    Don't know where you are located, but something like this would definitely be an improvement over your JVC:

    http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/ele/257800416.html
    Signature goes here
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  • rskarvan
    rskarvan Posts: 2,374
    edited January 2007
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    SL2500 tweeters just don't sound very good.
    Go buy the replacement silk tweeter from Polk for $48 to replace those OEM screeching-plastic-dome-demons-from-hell.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,851
    edited January 2007
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    #1 - replace the source and amp. On the cheap, you can get a Toshiba 3950/60 ($40-50) and modify it ($40-60) (since you seem to be into mods). Just google around and you will find many sources for the svenson and vinnie mods. For the amp, people have reported excellent results with the Sonic Impact T-Amps ($35). Try em, its a really cheap experiment.

    Both of those products are a total waste of money as too many folks have found out. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited January 2007
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    from what I have read here and in other places.....I must agree with F1

    If your going to upgrade, do it one at a time, and get a quality unit to start with....don`t get something based on just price.....

    IMHO, of course
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited January 2007
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    The Toshiba was a decent "budget" DVD player. NOTHING MORE. I bought one wanting to see the giant killer low dollar player that was getting all the hype. I ended up giving it to my parents. The only thing that I found to be true in all the hype I read was that it was cheap. Which it was.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • schwarcw
    schwarcw Posts: 7,328
    edited January 2007
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    Buy more beer!:D
    Carl

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  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited January 2007
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    and that`s what we have been suggesting

    and also suggesting to enjoy each step along the journey..

    may sound bland to you, but it`s still sound advise
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)

    :cool:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
    edited January 2007
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    anonymouse wrote:
    doro made a good point recently - anybody coming to this forum for advice basically gets the same bland answers.

    He asked the question and I gave him the best most practical advice I could give. I didn't say go out and spend $2000 on new equipment. Sometimes the truth hurts. I would start with trying to find a better source (used) you can get a lot bang for your buck. Tweets would be the next step. Just because we suggest it doesn't mean he (or she) has to follow the advice.

    I'm not going to "dumb" down my advice which is based on my own personal experience just because someon might not want to follow it. It is what it is........
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
    edited January 2007
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    anonymouse wrote:
    I started on Polks with R15's and a pioneer receiver, which I thought were fantastic at the time.

    That's the difference you thought they sounded great, he doesn't think his system sounds so great. The speakers are not the problem. He's been presented with some good advice now it's up to him to decide how he want's to proceed.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,851
    edited January 2007
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    No one is forgetting the journey, but taking a step sideways isn't helping anyone along the path to greater enjoyment of the music. Besides, no one told him to buy a $5K CDP, just suggested that he consider upgrading from his JVC. That is good, sound advice.

    Bland answers? Good point? You've got to be pretty lost if you believe either.
    Either your mods were not done right, or not done at all. In stock form, there is nothing special about the 3960, but a well modded unit is fantastic bang for the buck.

    I'll have to strongly disagree.
    But I suppose traditional logic of a $200+ source is safe. Bland but safe

    What traditional logic? The only person here popping numbers is you. The rest of us are making suggestions without dollar figures attached. However, since you brought it up, there is a good reason why better gear costs more and there's nothing bland about it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
    edited January 2007
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    anonymouse wrote:
    Well F1, you have a reputation for being opinionated. I like that. I'm opinionated too. So you believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe the truth :)

    So you admit your opininated yet your opinion is somehow truth and the rest of our's isn't?:rolleyes: Interesting
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,851
    edited January 2007
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    You can't handle the truth!!! :)



    Forgot to add a smiley...
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
    edited January 2007
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    anonymouse wrote:
    Jeez guys...lighten up. You take me far too seriously. Frankly, if he (or you) does not care for my opinion, thats fine. Perhaps the smiley above was lost on both of you?

    Yeah it did and, I wasn't trying to be so heavy handed, just in discussion mode and, I didn't add a smiley when perhaps I should have. :)
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Polk65
    Polk65 Posts: 1,405
    edited January 2007
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    Mother of all Mooch's... Some can listen to a system costing more than their car or home and not hear a difference. Since you find the tweeters bright, try the replacements. Are there any Goodwill stores nearby? Sometimes you can find cheap gear worth a listen. Check out the cd players they have, do a little research, and find what sounds good to your ears. A beefier amp will wake up the bass. Tame it by hanging more socks, or set some bass traps.
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  • Mother Mooch
    Mother Mooch Posts: 129
    edited January 2007
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    Thanks Gents!

    I do see a lot of good advice here and will enjoy the journey! :)

    I think my best upgrade for now would be the Tweets!

    I did a little experimenting last night with a diferent reciver JVC r6000v 100wpc with digital in, went from my cheap Avia DVD player digital to digital and the highs sounded mych better, but the bottom end stunk, So as someone stated, Digital is NOT warm like analog! I even went as far as hooking up my Optimus sub (100 watt, one 10" woofer) and am still not kicking!

    So i guess! it's going to be a long road... lol...

    Good news is! I am working (second job) for a guy that's into antiques and he has a couple Pioneer Spec 3 and 4 Amps laying around (with pre amps) that i might be able to get my grubby little fingers on! The spec 4 puts out 500 wpc
    Wooo woooo.... And they are old and "warm"... He has a Whole system that i might be able to work out a deal!

    For now i'll be looking on "the bay" for the silk tweets!

    Thanks again guys!
    This is going to be a good learning experiance! (I hope it doesn;t drive me insane!) lol...

    Steve
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited January 2007
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    Yes, get some better power to the speakers. I added a pioneer elite avr-35 on the cheap in my bedroom and it hugely improved the little 2-channel system I have. I have two polk monitor 30 bookshelfs and sometimes have to look around the room to see if someone snuck a sub into the equation.

    Honestly, I've found with good (usually separate) amplification and even a decent source, just about any polk speaker will sound great! Just do regional searches on ebay, I've found a lot of good stuff there and didn't have to pay any shipping.

    Hope your vintage pioneer procurement is successful.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
    edited January 2007
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    Mother Mooch wrote:
    Thanks Gents!

    I do see a lot of good advice here and will enjoy the journey! :)

    I think my best upgrade for now would be the Tweets!

    I did a little experimenting last night with a diferent reciver JVC r6000v 100wpc with digital in, went from my cheap Avia DVD player digital to digital and the highs sounded mych better, but the bottom end stunk, So as someone stated, Digital is NOT warm like analog! I even went as far as hooking up my Optimus sub (100 watt, one 10" woofer) and am still not kicking!

    So i guess! it's going to be a long road... lol...

    Good news is! I am working (second job) for a guy that's into antiques and he has a couple Pioneer Spec 3 and 4 Amps laying around (with pre amps) that i might be able to get my grubby little fingers on! The spec 4 puts out 500 wpc
    Wooo woooo.... And they are old and "warm"... He has a Whole system that i might be able to work out a deal!

    For now i'll be looking on "the bay" for the silk tweets!

    Thanks again guys!
    This is going to be a good learning experiance! (I hope it doesn;t drive me insane!) lol...

    Steve


    It all sounds like a solid plan. FYI, I've never seen a pair of the silk RD0194 or RD0198 on e-bay. No one other than this forum really is aware about the replacement. I'm not saying you won't find a pair but you might be looking on Ebay for a long long time. If you order them thru Polk make sure you tell them you are Club member and you will get a discount. Last I checked they were $48 each shipped to your door.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Mother Mooch
    Mother Mooch Posts: 129
    edited January 2007
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    heiney9 wrote:
    It all sounds like a solid plan. FYI, I've never seen a pair of the silk RD0194 or RD0198 on e-bay. No one other than this forum really is aware about the replacement. I'm not saying you won't find a pair but you might be looking on Ebay for a long long time. If you order them thru Polk make sure you tell them you are Club member and you will get a discount. Last I checked they were $48 each shipped to your door.


    I think for 48 bucks a piece, I'll send off to polk!

    Ebay didn't have much at all and who wants to buy used!

    Thanks again!
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited January 2007
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    Would'nt worry to much about who is taking who seriously, don't you love the posts who bring in a long time member not even in the thread????? Stand on your own or go stand in the corner, rest your neck and play with yourself.

    Mr. Mooch (waaaaaa love that name) the silk dome you ordered is a decent tweeter worth the investment, however, as mentioned you might want to upgrade a bit for those sober moments. Some feel the Monitor 7 was the smoothest best sounding monitor made in the line and I would tend to agree, with the 10 being the rock speaker that made Polk, the 10 was Mr. Polk's favorite all around from the monitor line.

    Used gear can be your friend, take a look on www.Audiogon.com, some of the new chinese imported gear is getting good reveiws, cheap labor with some good design from established companies, I see members here reporting liking what they are hearing.

    Enjoy.

    RT1
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