The people over in Audioholics are a bunch of quacks!

McLoki

nadams wrote:

I'm not saying that I'm surprised by it... but I'd have a heck of a time trying to explain it to a bunch of "all amps created equal" folk.

touche'

mulveling

Actually guys...
There is a lot of misunderstading about power amps and how they correlate to volume levels...

Assuming the speakers remain constant, the real issue towards pushing out a higher volume (regardless to clipping issues) lies in two factors: the preamp gain and the power amp input sensitivity. Note that power amp's input sensitivity is largely unrelated to its power rating (much like with speakers). Power ratings don't raise volume levels by themselves; they just determine how loud you can go before clipping or severe distortion occurs. Within a reciever, these parameters are fixed and I would assume that most responsible manufacturers will tweak them such that it's hard, if not impossible, to clip the typical (8 ohm, high 80's db sensitivity) speakers even with the volume knob maxed out. That means - when you add a powerful external amp while using the receiver as a preamp, you will almost certainly be bottlenecked by that receiver preamp's low gain. Remember, that preamp section was designed not to overload the puny receiver power sections. It won't be able to put out the voltage required to tap into the 200+ Watts of a solid power amp.

It's perfectly possible that adding an external 200+ Watt poweramp to a receiver will actually lower the loudness - this happens when the external power amp's input sensitivity is lower than that of the receiver's power section - in this case you're not able to tap into the amp's potential for louder volumes, not even close. Of course you could get lucky and your external amp has higher sensitivity, in which case you will notice an increase in loudness (and likely quality). That's better - but you still may not be able to tap the amps' true capabilities yet.

You guys want serious volume, you need a power amp capable of huge Wattages and a preamp with some seriously high gain (capable of high voltages). High-end headphone amps that double as preamps are great for this 'cause their gain is typically much higher than audiophile 2ch preamps. The Melos SHA-Gold and Sugden Headmaster are shining examples of this - they will rock your socks off with the right power amp! Oh, btw - those 2 headamps can also take down many traditional 2ch preamps in the same price range (and above) in terms of pure audio quality. Just be careful, because with a high gain preamp it can be easy to drive many power amps into clipping - and you can't use the position of the volume knob as indication of when this might occur.

...ok now that that's done - I gotta throw this in and agree with the thread op cfrizz here - most of the guys on that forum sound like 'tards

McLoki

mulveling wrote:

You guys want serious volume, you need a power amp capable of huge Wattages and a preamp with some seriously high gain (capable of high voltages).

Actually if you want serious volume, you need to look at highly efficient speakers, not trying to amplify an inefficient one.

The differences we were talking about were the sound differences with a set of speakers playing at 85db with amp "A" and 85db with amp "B". (same speaker and same volume, just a different amp)

In other words, our argument is there are audible benefits to running an external amp instead of an AVR at almost any volume. You don't get an external amp just to get louder volumes. (although that may be a benefit as well)

Michael

mulveling

McLoki wrote:

Actually if you want serious volume, you need to look at highly efficient speakers, not trying to amplify an inefficient one.

The differences we were talking about were the sound differences with a set of speakers playing at 85db with amp "A" and 85db with amp "B". (same speaker and same volume, just a different amp)

In other words, our argument is there are audible benefits to running an external amp instead of an AVR at almost any volume. You don't get an external amp just to get louder volumes. (although that may be a benefit as well)

Michael

I'm not arguing that better amps don't sound better at the same volume levels - not at all. You're preaching to the choir there. I'm making an argument for the best solution to increasing the volume levels available for a given set of speakers, which is what that Audioholics thread was all about (or at least started that way).

In any case, in the context of that thread, we were talking about constant speakers in (I assume) an HT/movie environment. Movies have a much much lower average volume level than CDs. It can be HARD to get a nice volume going, with even high end receivers - not even melt your ears volumes, just a nice volume for movies. I know, because I started out 2 years ago with a Denon 3805 and Polk LSi. Adding external amps didn't change things, volume-wise, too much one way or the other (variations in input sensitivity weren't that big)...getting an external preamp is really what allowed me to tap into the external amps and get a nice volume going - then I was able to appreciate the increased quality of the overall system as well.

So basically my recommendation for the Audioholics thread op would be that a new power amp or a new receiver probably isn't enough - he needs a new power amp AND a new pre Though, if he could do just one thing - he should look for a quality power amp with a solid power rating AND a higher than average input sensitivity to make the best of his receiver's preamp section. I think Cathy mentioned her Sunfire amp was louder than her receiver alone - if so then it probably has a high input sensitivity, making it a likely good choice for the thread op.

hearingimpared

Cath reading that thread gave me the feeling of Abott & Costello;

Who's on first,
What's on second,
I don't know who's on third. . . .

zombie boy 2000

My amp has an ungodly high input sensitivity and my preamp is rated at 20db of gain...
9 o'clock on the dial tops and my speakers are 4 Ohm with an inefficiency of 87db.

My point being -- I agree with mulveling that a high gain preamp mated with a highly efficient amp is a recipe for ridiculous volume. I can only imagine if I had efficient speakers..

However, since I'm dealing with single 4 1/2" drivers, I can only go so loud. What a tightrope I walk:D

cfrizz

Thank you Mulveling, your science report just gave me a headache!:eek:

My whole point on that thread was that the loudness factor was a minor benefit compared to having increased clarity & detail from my system.

Having that increase, allowed me to actually lower the volume & it was still clear as a bell!

I don't really care about the whys & wherefores of that being the case, I just care about hearing ALL the details of the music!:D

madmax

I think everyone is missing the real reason a louder volume cannot be perceived. It is because of the human ear and dynamic range. There is a specific wattage which allows the dynamic range to be fully reproduced. Beyond that you start making the lower volume sounds louder when increasing the louder volume sounds. The difference between the lower and higher volume sounds approaches becoming constant. Your ears will only notice the difference between the lowest and highest volume sound once you become accustomed to a given power output.

Tell them they need to get MIT cables or some BS to make it louder...

madmax

BrickBryan

Hi Everybody

BrickBryan

I need

BrickBryan

to post 10 times before I can PM

nadams

hopefully whoever you're PMing will ignore the message!

hearingimpared

nadams wrote:

hopefully whoever you're PMing will ignore the message!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

jakelm

nadams wrote:

hopefully whoever you're PMing will ignore the message!

Your shitting me right?

jakelm

madmax wrote:

I think everyone is missing the real reason a louder volume cannot be perceived. It is because of the human ear and dynamic range. There is a specific wattage which allows the dynamic range to be fully reproduced. Beyond that you start making the lower volume sounds louder when increasing the louder volume sounds. The difference between the lower and higher volume sounds approaches becoming constant. Your ears will only notice the difference between the lowest and highest volume sound once you become accustomed to a given power output.



madmax

OK...That went way over my head. :eek:

m00npie

BrickBryan wrote:

to post 10 times before I can PM

Any relation to JimBrick ?

SKsolutions

mulveling wrote:

Actually guys...
There is a lot of misunderstading about power amps and how they correlate to volume levels...

Assuming the speakers remain constant, the real issue towards pushing out a higher volume (regardless to clipping issues) lies in two factors: the preamp gain and the power amp input sensitivity. Note that power amp's input sensitivity is largely unrelated to its power rating (much like with speakers). Power ratings don't raise volume levels by themselves; they just determine how loud you can go before clipping or severe distortion occurs. Within a reciever, these parameters are fixed and I would assume that most responsible manufacturers will tweak them such that it's hard, if not impossible, to clip the typical (8 ohm, high 80's db sensitivity) speakers even with the volume knob maxed out. That means - when you add a powerful external amp while using the receiver as a preamp, you will almost certainly be bottlenecked by that receiver preamp's low gain. Remember, that preamp section was designed not to overload the puny receiver power sections. It won't be able to put out the voltage required to tap into the 200+ Watts of a solid power amp.

It's perfectly possible that adding an external 200+ Watt poweramp to a receiver will actually lower the loudness - this happens when the external power amp's input sensitivity is lower than that of the receiver's power section - in this case you're not able to tap into the amp's potential for louder volumes, not even close. Of course you could get lucky and your external amp has higher sensitivity, in which case you will notice an increase in loudness (and likely quality). That's better - but you still may not be able to tap the amps' true capabilities yet.

You guys want serious volume, you need a power amp capable of huge Wattages and a preamp with some seriously high gain (capable of high voltages). High-end headphone amps that double as preamps are great for this 'cause their gain is typically much higher than audiophile 2ch preamps. The Melos SHA-Gold and Sugden Headmaster are shining examples of this - they will rock your socks off with the right power amp! Oh, btw - those 2 headamps can also take down many traditional 2ch preamps in the same price range (and above) in terms of pure audio quality. Just be careful, because with a high gain preamp it can be easy to drive many power amps into clipping - and you can't use the position of the volume knob as indication of when this might occur.

...ok now that that's done - I gotta throw this in and agree with the thread op cfrizz here - most of the guys on that forum sound like 'tards

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. Your statements, in most cases, would be more accurate if completely inverted.

mulveling

SKsolutions wrote:

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. Your statements, in most cases, would be more accurate if completely inverted.

Oh? Care to elucidate on what I'm missing? Or do you just like to make annoying comments without backing them up?

johnADA

Quacks???? Sure you want to be that light in a description?

Pursuing the truth in Audio/Video!!

Only when it suits something is that true and I believe its within the pocket book for its suiting.
Many topics are ongoing that are against everything thats in their articles. I called Gene out on one in which he did the article and he reversed his stance, so I asked him if he was changing the article or bowing to pressures from and advertiser. Got one of them, aah, ooh, well, **** answers. It happens daily and I've pointed that out to them asking if the truth shouldnt outweigh the mighty advertising dollar. I'm not allowed to post anymore was my answer!!

reeltrouble1

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

MSALLA

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

I think I saw this story on masterpiece theater one night.

cfrizz

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Ted you are great! And I look forward to the continuation of your story!:D

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

jakelm

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

Is that the story of BOSE???...LOL

Bill Ayotte

these are some special people. I don't have a sliver of the knowledge base as the majority of the people here, and I know that some of those guys are borderline retarded. I liked the suggestion to buy a 600w/ch. Crown pro amp to hook up to the low end a pair of B&W 604s. We all know here that will bring out the best in those speakers.

TN_Polk_Lover

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

Thanks! This is really good! You made my night.

dorokusai

I have the strange feeling that the next time I see Ted in person, he will be in a XXL martial arts gi and talking like Yoda.

I'm a little freaked out.

reeltrouble1

I am leaving Yoda for Dan...............

although FDR once said "up with this I will not put" demonstrating a grammatically correct dangling participle for his Secretary, sort of Yoda like, and since something dangles well.............you guys know.

Hint---Animal Farm

RT1

BrickBryan

m00npie wrote:

Any relation to JimBrick ?

No relation. Sorry Is Jim Brick a friend of yours?

bknauss

SKsolutions wrote:

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. Your statements, in most cases, would be more accurate if completely inverted.

*scratches head* The statements looked pretty damned correct to me, even if they might not be real world examples. Sensitivity and gain in an amplified system can mean just about everything in terms of perceived loudness. Take our subs vs. Velodyne's... we adjust our gains and sensitivities so you will have little distortion when the volume is maxed. Velo hits that point at around 12 o'clock on the volume knob. Both subs might have the same power rating, but one is going to distort like a **** for the sake of getting more perceived loudness.

My 2 cents.

bknauss

And yes, Audioholics makes their own rules to satisfy themselves. Look at the all channels driven document and also their measurement methods. They follow no standard and no upcoming standards. And its also nice how the are always doing reviews for Yamaha with glowing reviews... could it be that there is an ex-Yammie employee on the staff?!?!?!