Seattle International Airport cancels Christmas

Polk65

The Seattle Port Commission has removed their Christmas trees under threat of a lawsuit. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2715008 This blows since they receive Federal dollars and Christmas is a Federal Holiday. http://www.opm.gov/fedhol/2006.asp

Fort Collins Colorado is also having this debate. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/10417920/detail.html

Personally I see Christmas trees (without anything on top) as a herald of the winter solstice transcending all religion.

PolkThug

Our legal system needs an overhaul.

bobman1235

The Christmas tree is actually a remnant of the Pagan holiday that the Christians took over. It really has nothing to do with religion, it's just a holiday decoration, let it BE.

ohskigod

after reading the ABC news story, I think I place some blame on the Airport. looks like a Rabbi wanted a menorah (but he also wanted a lighting ceremony as well, I wonder if that was a sticking point)

I have no prob with the menorah, and would be dissapointed if all this could have been avoided with putting up a menorah. Like I said though, something tells me the lighting ceremony was a sticking point, hence the removal of the trees.

ohskigod

read the Fort Collins story. Why not just put up a menorah?, USSC ruled in secular enough for public display, why officially keep it out? Its all silly to me. want a menorhah?, Here ya go!. how hard is that?

steveinaz

The Menorah issue, was the issue. The airport didn't want to risk any lawsuits, but also felt they couldn't cover "all" the different religious holidays with decorations and the associated costs. They figured if they put up a Menorah, they would also have to represent othe religions as well to keep from being sued. SAD.

This frickin country, can't even put a damn tree up without legal woes. Once again, the moral minority rules. What a bunch of ****. CHRISTMAS is about "Christ" and christianity--it's not about the jewish, the muslims, the hindus, or whatever you are. Do any of these religions invite christians to participate? Hell no. So why do christians have to ensure that everyone else gets to participate/be represented....IN OUR HOLIDAY?

I have nothing against the other religions, but respect is a 2-way street. Once again, the good 'ol double standard. WE have to respect them, but they don't have to respect our beliefs/traditions. **** I say.

Per the 2002 census, 5 out of 6 Americans are Christians, if you don't like the demographic---MOVE. Do you think for a second that a Christian could move to Saudi Arabia and start a following? Be kinda hard without a head. We as Americans need to stop allowing this degradation of our values/traditions. Take your "PC" hat off and make a stand. We've got people coming into our country and changing how we live. When did that ever become acceptable?

Hear that sound? That's World War II veterans turning in their graves...

janmike

I am so sick and tired of this BS. North America is the land of the free, but the traditional values are being destroyed. I think it may be worse north of the 48th. At least Yellowknife is far enough away from the centre of Canada that some of the old values are still maintained to a certain degree.

Demiurge

The gubmint should rescind Christmas as a nationally recognized holiday, and thus make gubmint workers work on Christmas. That'd really give people something to **** about. We need to stop cow-tailing to the minority in this country, and stop worrying about offending morons who weep silently when they see a Christmas tree. Good grief....

Never see the people so offended by Christmas refusing their time off and holiday pay. :rolleyes:

bobman1235

In the guy who started this's defense, he said his intention was not for them to take the Christmas trees down, only that he wanted a menorah. He's actually asked that they put the trees back up, because he feels bad.

That doesn't change the point though - I still agree with Steve - everyone expects the minorities (be it racial, religious, or anything else) to be "respected", but the majority is being DISrespected. If 80+% of the country is Christian (and, btw, I believe some 90+% celebrate Christmas, even if it's not in the "religious" spirit), why do they have to suffer for the minority? How does that make sense to ANYONE? No one's asking you to bend down in front of the trees and pray, we're just saying "hey, most of you celebrate Christmas, here's something to make you smile." God **** forbid.

steveinaz

Demi

No ****, the sheep are more than ready to reap the benefits---in the same breath of being offended.

steveinaz

bobman1235 wrote:

In the guy who started this's defense, he said his intention was not for them to take the Christmas trees down, only that he wanted a menorah. He's actually asked that they put the trees back up, because he feels bad.

That doesn't change the point though - I still agree with Steve - everyone expects the minorities (be it racial, religious, or anything else) to be "respected", but the majority is being DISrespected. If 80+% of the country is Christian (and, btw, I believe some 90+% celebrate Christmas, even if it's not in the "religious" spirit), why do they have to suffer for the minority? How does that make sense to ANYONE? No one's asking you to bend down in front of the trees and pray, we're just saying "hey, most of you celebrate Christmas, here's something to make you smile." God **** forbid.

Unfortunately, 1 word: LAWSUIT

Isn't it ironic how so many are crying for seperation of church and state, yet you can sue someone (successfully) over a church issue...hmmm. Looks like the 'ol double-standard again.

Have you ever heard of a Christian protesting, being offended by, sueing, another religion for their practices on religiously significant holidays for them? Can you imagine the out-cry if a religious symbol of another religon was "removed" because it offended a Christian?

ledhed

When I was at Sea-Tac a few years ago in July, they had all kinds of reindeer and a general Christmas feel already painted on the windows. I assumed this was just their standard windows b/c Seattle is fairly far north and a lot of people lump Northwest with the whole Scandinavian Christmassy feeling. So, are these decorations still there? Just thinking this whole thing is screwed up because the entire decor of the airport was Christmas before

jdhdiggs

bobman1235 wrote:

That doesn't change the point though - I still agree with Steve - everyone expects the minorities (be it racial, religious, or anything else) to be "respected", but the majority is being DISrespected. If 80+% of the country is Christian (and, btw, I believe some 90+% celebrate Christmas, even if it's not in the "religious" spirit), why do they have to suffer for the minority?God **** forbid.

Bobman, I did some research and the figures are about (statistics suck at exact numbers):
~85% of the population is Christian (Which is higher than % of Jews in Isreal, Buddhists in China, Hindu's in India, Christians in Europe)
~95% of the population celebrates or otherwise follows Christian Holidays, whether they are Christian or not.

So what's left is that 5% to be offended. Why can't the minority respect the viewpoint of the majority...

If someone put up a Menora, and someone else a crescent, and another a sculpture of Shiva, I wouldn't be offended...

markmarc

A lesson:
Since the 1930's, Denver's City and County building has been light up from Thanksgiving thru the end of January. In the early 1980's lawsuits were brought forth arguing the spending of public money for a religious celebration.

To circumvent the lawsuit, a private fund was developed that pays for the installation, electricity, upkeep, and removal.

Every year the group applies and automatically receives the appropriate permits. Sometimes a little common sense goes a long ways!

Check out the address to see how beautiful it looks.
http://www.pbase.com/ rianhouston/image/37238386

PhantomOG

Is it just me or does it seem like the Jewish community is the only set of people that view the Christmas tree as a religious symbol? I have no problem seeing a menorah anywhere anyone wants to put one, but I fail to see how a tree is in anyway analogous to a menorah.

I bet there are many more non-Christian homes with trees versus Christian homes with trees.

Is a wreath also a religious symbol? How about Frosty the Snowman and Santa?

From the article:
In 1989, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Christmas trees and menorahs were sufficiently secular that they could be displayed in a government building without constituting an endorsement of a particular religion.

I fail to see how their threatened lawsuit could get anywhere. The airport should be able to sue that guy for harassment in my opinion.

zombie boy 2000

This might blow some people's minds, but my family celebrated both Christmas and Hanukkah when I was a child. Both sides of the family were represented. No feelings were hurt. No one debated. The Holidays are the Holidays. And not a single person on the Jewish side of my family takes offense to another family member celebrating in their own way... hell, truth be told, there's usually a Christmas tree up in all the households -- Jewish or otherwise.

I really don't know who's making all this stink. Must be lawyers and the media. Because I know from first-hand experience that it isn't the average Jew.

steveinaz

I agree, usually the Jewish community is very accepting and the holidays run seamlessly. Understand, I'm not necessarily upset with these groups, I'm upset because American's keeping rolling over and playing dead with these issues. The airport should have stood their ground. I too have no problem with other religious symbols being included, I DO have a problem with my religious symbols/holiday symbols being taken down because another religion finds MY religious holiday offensive.

zombie boy 2000

^^^
AMEN!!

I agree Steve. What I'm saying is that I don't think I've ever really met someone who was truly offended by a religious/holiday display. It's always "some group" and there is generally litigation involved.

How on earth anyone can demonize a Christmas tree is beyond me. And I'd really like to meet the sort of individual that is truly hurt to the core by such a display. And I'd also like to meet a unicorn and a banshee.

PolkWannabie

I suspect it's more likley the totally in the minority, totally intollerant atheists ... They're usually the biggest noise makers ...

F1nut

steveinaz wrote:

The Menorah issue, was the issue. The airport didn't want to risk any lawsuits, but also felt they couldn't cover "all" the different religious holidays with decorations and the associated costs. They figured if they put up a Menorah, they would also have to represent othe religions as well to keep from being sued. SAD.

This frickin country, can't even put a damn tree up without legal woes. Once again, the moral minority rules. What a bunch of ****. CHRISTMAS is about "Christ" and christianity--it's not about the jewish, the muslims, the hindus, or whatever you are. Do any of these religions invite christians to participate? Hell no. So why do christians have to ensure that everyone else gets to participate/be represented....IN OUR HOLIDAY?

I have nothing against the other religions, but respect is a 2-way street. Once again, the good 'ol double standard. WE have to respect them, but they don't have to respect our beliefs/traditions. **** I say.

Per the 2002 census, 5 out of 6 Americans are Christians, if you don't like the demographic---MOVE. Do you think for a second that a Christian could move to Saudi Arabia and start a following? Be kinda hard without a head. We as Americans need to stop allowing this degradation of our values/traditions. Take your "PC" hat off and make a stand. We've got people coming into our country and changing how we live. When did that ever become acceptable?

Hear that sound? That's World War II veterans turning in their graves...

Bravo! Couldn't have said it better myself.



I love this line,

"They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said Bogomilsky's (the Rabbi who started the whole mess) lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."

Ya think!?! Maybe he should have thought of that first.

DollarDave

Good news - "The official Christmas trees are still down at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, but a few little trees have popped up at airline counters...."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16150563/

PolkThug

Bad News: There is now a new lawsuit that demands mini-menorahs to be placed next to the mini-trees.

PhantomOG

PolkThug wrote:

Bad News: There is now a new lawsuit that demands mini-menorahs to be placed next to the mini-trees.

ahh... that was good.

Mike682

steveinaz wrote:

The airport should have stood their ground. I too have no problem with other religious symbols being included, I DO have a problem with my religious symbols/holiday symbols being taken down because another religion finds MY religious holiday offensive.

Same here. Offended by a Christmas tree?! When is the majority going to step up and call out these people's blantant intolerance towards folks who celebrate Christmas instead of just caving in and pulling the Christmas trees?

I celebrate Christmas and have not once even thought about being offended by the menorah.

Absolutely pathetic....

Shizelbs

This just in, the trees are going back up.

cambir

The trees should go back up...alongside other representations of cultural celebrations. If you don't like it, don't look at it.

hearingimpared

bobman1235 wrote:

In the guy who started this's defense, he said his intention was not for them to take the Christmas trees down, only that he wanted a menorah. He's actually asked that they put the trees back up, because he feels bad.

That doesn't change the point though - I still agree with Steve - everyone expects the minorities (be it racial, religious, or anything else) to be "respected", but the majority is being DISrespected. If 80+% of the country is Christian (and, btw, I believe some 90+% celebrate Christmas, even if it's not in the "religious" spirit), why do they have to suffer for the minority? How does that make sense to ANYONE? No one's asking you to bend down in front of the trees and pray, we're just saying "hey, most of you celebrate Christmas, here's something to make you smile." God **** forbid.

One of the responsibilities of the majority in a Democracy is to protect the minority. It is not the responsibility of the majority in a Democracy to be run by the minority no matter how "offended" they feel. This is where the political correctness effs everything up.

hearingimpared

There goes that friggin word again: LAWSUIT

That word instills fear in even the most staunch of entities. LAWSUIT = bad press, unwanted attention, biased public opinions, and always the loss of money right or wrong.

If the Rabbi would have made a polite request or got a petition together and presented it in a civil manner I'm sure the airport powers that be would have considered the request. The Rabbi is now scambling because this issue is bringing bad press to the Jews in that area. Heck the Islamo-facists are probably having a field day with this one.

All because of that friggin word: LAWSUIT.

A little off topic here what kills me is that the majority of people become outraged when let's say some **** gets millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on herself. . . complete and total outrage. . . that being the case how the hell do these lawsuits get past these judges. . . are they activist judges? What is with these idiots that people can hurt THEMSELVES and then sue someone else. I just don't get it.

PolkWannabie

I'm not a proponent for legal action in situations like the McCoffee case ... However ...

- McDonald's did ( and still does ) brew and serve their coffee well above the industry standard temperature. They have lowered it to 165 degrees but it used to be in 195-205 degree range which is sufficient to cause 2nd & 3rd degree burns. By comparison coffee out of the typical home coffee maker is 140 degrees and while hot it is not enough to do damage.

- The plaintiff in the case originally asked for $10,000 which was ignored.

- The case was eventually settled for much less then the original publicised award but there was little publicity.

Demiurge

PolkWannabie wrote:

I'm not a proponent for legal action in situations like the McCoffee case ... However ...

- McDonald's did ( and still does ) brew and serve their coffee well above the industry standard temperature. They have lowered it to 165 degrees but it used to be in 195-205 degree range which is sufficient to cause 2nd & 3rd degree burns. By comparison coffee out of the typical home coffee maker is 140 degrees and while hot it is not enough to do damage.

- The plaintiff in the case originally asked for $10,000 which was ignored.

- The case was eventually settled for much less then the original publicised award but there was little publicity.

You're missing something crucial here. This was the first high publicity case in which any company had to shell out for something in which the fault clearly was that of the 'victim'. There was no precedent for companies such as McDonalds having to shell out one thin dime to someone who sued them for something so silly, let alone the $10,000 she asked for.

If McDonalds knew they were going to get sued for millions and have any chance of losing, they would have settled right away. The fact of the matter is that there actually was a time where people took responsibility for their actions, and their stupidity. No one in their right minds back then thought for a second people would get millions of dollars because lawyers decided it would be a good idea to start representing morons. It's not all the lawyers faults, it's the idiots that manage to get on juries in cases like this as well.

This is the same legal system that set free OJ. All companies are guilty until proven innocent.

PolkThug

She had to get skin grafts on her labia. McD's served that coffee way too hot. We shouldn't have to worry about a teenager fumbling a drink in the drive thru window that is so hot that it will cause permanent injuries.