bi-amp high and low or run left and right?

SLOCOOKN

Now that i have my pre amp issue worked out I would like some (IMO) advise on
running a bi-amp highs and lows or a seperate amp for the left and right.
sony cd to bbe 482i - B&K 1030 - (2) gfa 555 mk2. velodyne spl 10
audioquest viper and nordost magic cables and audioquest crystal 2 speaker.

And any opinions on BBE equipment.

SLOCOOKN

p.s. just ordered rd 01981 for 3.1tl's

dkg999

As you have two of the exact same amps, I would use a vertical bi-amp configuration. Use one amp for each speaker, using channel 1 for the low end, and channel 2 for the high end. The theory is that the high end does not draw much from the power supply so you free up more current to feed the low end. Other may disagree with this theory, your mileage may vary, professional drivers only, don't try this at home :rolleyes:

PolkWannabie

That's the method I use ...

amulford

What kind of speakers??? 3.1TL? You need to horizontally bi - amp them. If you do it vertically, you won't have common ground between the two channels and the SDA will not work, not to mention potential damage to the speakers.

Now if you can strap the grounds on the amps, check with Adcom to see if it is OK, then go for it.

SLOCOOKN

Please forgive me. I did contact adcom. GFA 555 mk 2 is a common ground.
It has a switch making it bridged when feeding left imput. This would power 3.1tl's. I would like a little more help here. Vertical is right and left and horizontal is high and low right?

If I am running horizontal and amps are common ground will I sitll need to connect?

Thanks

SLOCOOKN

continuing...How would I seperate the highs and lows? only 2 connections. One for left and right. I am guessing that it would be biwire speaker cable. I did buy DNM jumpers with babananass:)

PolkWannabie

Biwire ???

Personally I use two sets ( actually 3 sets in my case but any way ) of cable to the speakers ... i.e. Low left ... Low Right ... High Left ... High Right

The left signal coming out of the preamp is split to two input channels of the amp.

For the two left channels coming out of the amp, one goes to the highs the other to the lows of the left speaker ...

THE JUMPERS ON THE SPEAKERS ARE REMOVED ...

Sami

Would this work for SDA's?

Amp1-ch1 to speaker1 low, amp1-ch2 to speaker2 high
Amp2-ch1 to speaker2 low, amp2-ch2 to speaker1 high

dkg999

OOOPS! Forgot about that SDA thingy! Yep, you have to have a common ground amplifier connected to both right and left speakers. I would think that SAMI's approach would work.

SLOCOOKN

ok, would the amp still be briged in samis' example? I am sorry that I don't yet grasp this.....would i need a y adapter comming out of the pre amp.???? Or am i completly lost... if not briged i might be ok. Just not sure yet...
PLEASE REPLY!

SLOCOOKN

on back of adcom. black and red left and right for both...if briged i use both red connections.. channel 1 and 2 i do not under stand.

SLOCOOKN

I think I get it now....not briged.... amp1 left channel to right spk high, right channel to left spk low.... amp 2 left channel to left spk high and right channel to right speaker low?

SLOCOOKN

what speaker cable for highs? I have audioquest crystal 2??

PolkWannabie

I can't say I know a lot about Adcom amps ... but the 555 is a two channel amp ... right ?

If you bridge the amp it becomes a mono or one channel amp ... right ?

If you are going to biamp a pair of speakers you need four channels to fill the bill i.e. 4 mono amps or 2 stereo amps or some 4+ multi channel amp.

So ... No Bridging ...

SLOCOOKN

OK, IF I UNDER STAND SAMI. WHAT IS THE BENIFIT? BOTH AMPS ARE RUNNING HIGH AND LOW FEQS. WOULD THE DEMAND BE THE SAME ON THE AMPLIFIER?
I AM NOT SURE WHERE THE BENIFIT OF THIS SET UP IS. IF I BRIDGE THE AMP IT WILL PRODUCE 600 WATTS PER CHANNEL NON-BRIDGED 200 WPC......I KNOW AN AMP IS AN AMP. IS THERE A SONIC OR OTHER DIFFERENCE ie EASIER ON THE AMP TO RUN BRIDGED SO THE DYNAMIC HEADROOM IS MORE AVA?

TroyD

If you run the amps bridged, ala mono block....there is no common ground between the amps. SDA's REQUIRE common ground amps due to the design.

You do not need 600wpc.

At this point, I think I'd request a manual from Polk, it has a nice diagram of how you can biamp.

BDT

BobMcG

SLOCOOKN wrote:

Vertical is right and left and horizontal is high and low right?

No,
Vertical means up and down. So that means an amp to run the highs and an amp to run the lows is a vertical biamp setup.

Horizontal means left and right. When one amp drives the left channel and one amp drives the right channel this is a horizontal biamp setup.

SLOCOOKN

bob,
Thanks. I under stand this. in sami's example. one amp feeds highs on one speaker and lows on a different speaker. what would the difference be if an amp is running just one speaker(bi-amped)? I don't see the value in sammi's example unless it has to to with sda effect.

PolkWannabie

With two identical amps one configuration has no value that I am aware of over the other ...

With two different types of amps for example a silicon and a tube amp there can be advantages in running the highs of both speakers off the tube amp ( less power required and smoother sound ) and the lows off the silicon amp ...

SLOCOOKN

OK, HERE IS ANOTHER POSSIBILITY...MABYE.. i HAVE 2 ADCOM GFA 555 MK2'S 200 WPC.
I ALSO HAVE A CARVER TFM 55X 380 WPC. THIS EQUIPMENT IS MOSTLY NEW TO ME. I HAVE LISTENED TO BOTH AMP'S BEFORE, JUST NEVER IN MY HOME. I WOULD LIKE TO GET THE BEST SOUND OUT OF MY SDA 3.1'S I ORDERED NEW TWEETERS. PER HAPS I SHOULD TRADE OFF THE ADCOM'S OR CARVER FOR A TUBE TO RUN HIGH'S...WHAT TUBE AMPS...NOT VERY FAMILIER THEM...ANY IMO'S ON SET UP??????!!!!! CHECK BEGINING OF POST FOR OTHER EQUIPMENT AND CABLES. THANKS STEVE

BobMcG

SLOCOOKN wrote:

bob,
Thanks. I under stand this. in sami's example. one amp feeds highs on one speaker and lows on a different speaker. what would the difference be if an amp is running just one speaker(bi-amped)? I don't see the value in sammi's example unless it has to to with sda effect.

OK, I wasn't sure.

Sami's version of amping is news to me. Not discrediting it... it's just a foreign way to me. I haven't given it much thought but I can't see a special value to it off hand.

PolkWannabie

The advantage would seem to be that the amps would have equal load ... One set of highs and one set of lows as opposed to one amp having the more difficult task of pushing both sets of lows.

Sami

PolkWannabie wrote:

The advantage would seem to be that the amps would have equal load ... One set of highs and one set of lows as opposed to one amp having the more difficult task of pushing both sets of lows.

Correct, and crossing the amps would be because the speakers are SDA's. I have no idea how the ground works on those, and if the amp setup would address the need or not. The question is do you need the common ground between high-high and low-low?

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/srs31tl/

"If you are using separate mono amplifiers without a common ground, Polk's AI-1 interface is available for proper connection."

Music Joe

I've used 2 GFA-555IIs in a vertical config and it...kinda sucked,the imaging took a hit, becoming rather flat. I had five/555s amps to choose from and started with a consecutive serial numbered pair. Same result.
2 amps horizontal worked really well...don't know why since the speaker still sees a 200 watt amp through the crossover...maybe the dual runs of speaker wire helped? Could be seperating energy draw...still seems both amps would see the same loads through a passive x-over network?
Never tried full bi-amp with electronic crossovers.
This is supposed to be the best way to optimize things yet expensive due to needing a really good electronic x-over network.
Even with the two amp configurations you end up needing twice the $$$ in cabling,said total in cabling may buy a better single set.
A combo of one/555 on highs...2 bridged on each low had some addictive dynamic capability but needed 3 dedicated lines to really see that.
Still involves two full sets of cables.
555's best foot foward is good bass depth and definition.In the end my opinion is one 555 with the best cabling input to output you can find for it.
If you can... 2-3 dedicated lines with a simple conditioner to isolate the digital from analog/pre-amp/amp(s) side.
Put the analog source and pre on one .Amp on another.Digital on third with some filtering/conditioning.
It still comes down to getting those first watts making the magic of good stereo. If you can build a Chris Venhaus Diy interconnect cable or a cat5 plenum variant of it, some $$ could be saved and the silver or 24 gauge plenum version is really decent for under one meter(un shielded) ic's.

SLOCOOKN

thanks music joe.

SLOCOOKN

I was really wanting some user advise with the adcom's.

SLOCOOKN

music joe, i have a belkin pf60 filter for power connections. you are a little over my head on the last paragraph though....please elabarate...still one amp?

Music Joe

Put aside the diy cable just for now I see you have some upgraded stuff.

Belkin pf 60 is the top one right? I had one for about 2 weeks and ended up not liking some things about it.
If you have time and want to try a few things.... here... only if you are comfortable w/o surge protection...if so skip the experiments omitting various equipment from power conditioning.

Since you have two amps you're gonna have to learn this to know for yourself, go ahead and try both amps...start by using some metal polish(or Deoxit/ProGold if you have it) to clean all your power plug ends and clean and treat your ic's and speaker lead ends and binding posts. Why not since it's apart.

Try a good listening session later (after 9pm if possible) hours with your system as it is now. Noise floor is usually very low and revealing late at night.
Ever notice the numerical volume setting night vs day on television watching?
Your set up should be warmed up good about 1 hour music with coldbloded 555's. just to re-affirm its overall sound.

Then try only the digital gear(Dac,Cd Player) on the Belkin. It should sound very different.This isolates the digital noise.
Give it a few days general listening. I remember liking my initial change with the Belkin then about 3 cd's into it noticed a sonic fingerprint.

With out it I have 3d solid sonic illusion,deep stage with airy crystalline highs.Very focused items in the mix.Deep,deep bass.Overall system dynamics were better.

With... 2 diminsional cut-outs and still good focus ,shallower stage.
Very dynamic and punchy midbass, loss of the lowest register of bass.

You have a seperate sub vs me with full range Soliloquy 6.5s so bass may be a non-issue unless the Velodyne loses the lowest register plugged into the PF-60 vs not.

Since you have upgraded wires try the one amp on each speaker method...one channel on highs other on lows. Listen critically for depth and imaging mainly.

Once you get a handle on the sound try both amps(you gotta know right?)one amp run in stereo on the lows...the other same way on highs....selecting the cables you feel are best in bass for lows amp and one with best highs for the high side from your cable collection.

Borrow other cables if you can...put the best you have on the imaging highs amp.Clean and Deox-it and Pro-Gold them before insertion. Big electronics store or audio buddy may have this...I have a Fry's near by with it.You can get this online it's worth having in your stable of stuff.

Try and keep your power cable seperate from interconnect and speaker best you can crossing at 90 degree angles only if they must be near each other.
After some good evening listening sessions plug everthing you had plugged before into the Belkin and again listen. Experiment with removing each item except the digital stuff.

Then just run one 555 stereo...simply disconnect the speaker leads at the amp and combine it to the other amp...so one amp with two speaker leads on each channel with one wire for highs and one for lows.(this is called bi-wire).
Disconnect the interconnect from the unused amp at the output of the preamp.And unplug the power from it to.

Try this if you wanna and see what you hear...each will sound different I wager.

Out of time for now and will check back.

BobMcG

Sami wrote:

"If you are using separate mono amplifiers without a common ground, Polk's AI-1 interface is available for proper connection."

Yes, but only in a time long ago and a land far away.;)

SLOCOOKN

BOB, I HAVE TRIED SOME OF YOUR GOOD ADVISE WITH THE BELKIN ALREADY.
I DO NO HAVE THE SUB CONNECTED. I DID KEEP THE DVD (FOR NOW) INEXPENSIVE SONY (FOR NOW) HOOKED UP TO THE BELKIN. WITH THE BELKIN IN MY AREA NOT A TOP CONCERN. I LIVE 45 MILES AWAY FROM AN UNDERGROUND NUKE...PLEANTY OF POWER AT THE EXPENSE OF THE FUTURE OF OUR KIDS MIND YOU!...ANYWAY..... I ALSO FOUND THAT THE COLOR ON MY TV WAS MUCH BETTER...AND THE BBE DID NOT NEED AS MUCH ADJUSTMENT AS WITH OUT THE BELKIN... SO WHAT I NEED TO DO IS GET MY HANDS ON WIRE TO BI AMP....MY CONCERN WAS THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE ENOUGH POWER TO REALLY PUSH THE 3.1'S. I HAVE OWNED FOR 10+ YEARS A SET OF MONITOR 10 SERIES 2'S FROM POLK...LOVE THEM...THE 3.1 ARE RATED TO HANDLE MORE POWER AND I LISTEN (WHEN POSSIBLE) TO LEVELS THAT MOST MIGHT NOT enjoy.. SO I WANTED A SYSTEM THAT WOULD NOT CLIPP SO EASY..HENCE THE FIRST AMP CARVER TFM 55X THEN 2 ADCOM GFA 555 MK2. IT MAY BE A FEW DAYS BEFORE I CAN REPORT ON THE BI-AMP PROGRESS...BUT I WILL POST ASAP. THANKS, STEVE