High End? Hmmmm

Early B.

Last week I visited a high end audio store. They weren't ultra high end, but had some Thiel, NAD, McIntosh, VTL, Totem, Ayre, etc. My visit reinforced in me the concept that price doesn't mean a damn thing in audio because your ears don't hear price, they hear sound.

Listened to some Totem Mani 2's ($4,999 bookshelf) on some Ayre gear and was thoroughly unimpressed. Bloated bass. The smaller Totems (forgot the model) at less than half the price were much better, IMO. Then I heard the reference setup -- a big **** pair of Thiel speakers with a huge Smartsub. Again, sounded horrible, IMO. My friend liked it alot, though.

The most impressive stuff I heard was the Ayre SS amps. I was blown away by the rich, clean sound. They reminded me of the PS Audio amps I heard a few weeks ago that were absolutely dead silent and crystal clear.

Another lesson I learned is that you gotta be careful in those stores because the sales people really seem to know what they're talking about, but if you listen carefully, they may be just blowing a bunch of hot air. After all, that's their job. For instance, when asked about the value of tube rolling, the sales guy (actually the owner) with 20 years of experience said, "It's best to stick with the factory tubes."

I realized that we are fortunate enough to be "informed consumers." The clients who can afford to pay retail prices for that gear probably don't spend a lot of time on something like the Polk forum learning about gear and listening to people who really know this stuff. They rely on sales people who generally have ulterior motives.

It was a good experience, but I have no desire to return.

zombie boy 2000

Wow Early... interesting read. I always wanted to hear a pair of Mani 2's properly set-up. Oh well.. this kind of dampens my enthusiasm. Were the smaller Totems bookshelves or mini-towers? If you can think of it, let me know....

madmax

It is good to stick with factory tubes. Keeps people from blowing up the equipment and electrocuting themselves...
madmax

tonyb

I pretty much have had the same experience Early.I compare those retail jerks with the like of used car salesmen.Better to buy gear from someone you know or here on the board.At least here,if someone screws up,we hang 'em upside down from the street lights.

Ricardo

I tend to agree on keeping factory tubes....you might roll different brands of the same tube, but changing the type of tube itself to get different/better sound might not be a good idea if you don't know what you are doing (like me)...

mldennison

Early B. wrote:

Listened to some Totem Mani 2's ($4,999 bookshelf) on some Ayre gear and was thoroughly unimpressed. Bloated bass. The smaller Totems (forgot the model) at less than half the price were much better, IMO.

interesting. i have never heard the mani's but i really liked the totem model 1's (which may be the ones you liked as well) when i heard them on moon electronics (drool...). $5K is alot to pay for a monitor, i would imagine it is tough to make a small box like that sound good enough to justify the price tag...

VR3

Just remember that all that gear sounds different in your room...

madmax

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Just remember that all that gear sounds different in your room...

And in your mind...
madmax

wingnut4772

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Just remember that all that gear sounds different in your room...

...or in any room.

BlueMDPicker

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Just remember that all that gear sounds different in your room...

Absolutely. I've had the pleasure of owning, and in many cases moving after an audition period in my home, several "high end" pieces. In the majority of cases, I'd never heard the items in a retail store. Four reasons: as Trey aptly notes, an audition in a store has little bearing on how it sounds in your home; I'm unwilling to pay most retail prices (even though I fully understand those prices are what keeps brick and mortar retailers in business and, in most cases, are justifiable); plus, I personally think it's unethical to audition retail and subsequently buy the same product over the internet. Lastly, I've been underwhelmed with the lack of savvy and sorry-assed, effete attitude I've encountered in some retail stores.

I did audition, and purchase, my Cain & Cain Abbey speakers and Shanling CD-T100 retail from a great retailer in George Grand's favorite city. No pressure, no hype, no attitude, and even arranged shipment of the speakers in the finish I wanted from another dealer in Atlanta.

My experiences have taught me that there is, in most cases, a substantial difference in sound quality between a $1000 piece and a $5000 piece. "Giant killers" are of course to be had in any areas of sound reproduction. More important than MSRP is total system synergy, and it takes much experimentation to find it in your listening environment. The great thing about the wealth of gear that's available through channels like Audiogon and this forum is you can normally give the "high end" piece a try for 1/3 to 1/2 of new MSRP.

halo

BlueMDPicker wrote:

More important than MSRP is total system synergy, and it takes much experimentation to find it in your listening environment.

Agreed - It isn't always about the Benjamin's. Experimentation within an individuals given means is a good thing As long as it sounds good to the end user who cares what it cost / didn't cost?

Early B.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Just remember that all that gear sounds different in your room...

Of course, but if gear sounds like crap in the showroom, you're not likely gonna bring it home for an audition to find out just how different it sounds.

BlueMDPicker

Early B. wrote:

The most impressive stuff I heard was the Ayre SS amps. I was blown away by the rich, clean sound. They reminded me of the PS Audio amps I heard a few weeks ago that were absolutely dead silent and crystal clear.

Which PSA amp(s) did you get a chance to hear? I'm totally impressed with the GCA series, owning the 250 and having heard the 100. They combine many of the endearing attributes of "tube" sound and SS power, IMO.

If I ever switch-out power in either of the HT rigs, I'll probably try one of the multi-channel PSA GC-based amps. Plenty of power and absolutely no heat. If the sound quality approachs anything close to 80% of the 2-channel GCs, they would be spectacular in that application.

Early B.

BlueMDPicker wrote:

Which PSA amp(s) did you get a chance to hear?

I don't know. It was in an audio store so I'm sure it was one of their latest models. I'm impressed with the whole line of PSA gear.

Early B.

Zero wrote:

Hell, I have even brought along my own various monitors to the store to play around with and even then – I didn’t like what I was hearing!

I thought about doing this. Thanks for talking me out of it.

Interesting post, BTW.

It was great that you were permitted to move stuff around. One day I went into a Tweeter and wanted the salesperson to move the Lsi9's into another room so I could compare it to an expensive pair of Vienna Acoustics floorstanders. He wouldn't do it. I think I know why.

Shizelbs

I agree with you on the hot air bit. Aside from getting to listen to gear I will likely never own myself, I love going into the hifi shops and waiting for someone on the sales staff to try and sneak a fib by me and then call them on it.

reeltrouble1

I want to live with the gear. Store demo's are cool for a fix and to check out cosmetics build and so on. We only have one high/mid end store in town (all sand) but they are very low pressure. I know the really big boy high end stores dont like the Gon but its been my best friend.

RT1

Joey_V

Hi end gear is what it is, hi end gear. That doesnt necessarily mean that it's the best sounding, but it means that the gear is the best (or a better) representation that a manufacturer aims to make. It may not be to your liking, but I certainly dont discount their purpose.

Price may not mean anything to you, but you're simply saying that regardless of price, you have your own sound biases (as we all do). And if you ever found your sound bias matched by a speaker company, price will matter as you will find yourself wanting the best that particular company makes.

Or atleast, that's how my journey has been.

Joey

W WALDECKER

Joey_V wrote:

Hi end gear is what it is, hi end gear. That doesnt necessarily mean that it's the best sounding, but it means that the gear is the best (or a better) representation that a manufacturer aims to make. It may not be to your liking, but I certainly dont discount their purpose.

Price may not mean anything to you, but you're simply saying that regardless of price, you have your own sound biases (as we all do). And if you ever found your sound bias matched by a speaker company, price will matter as you will find yourself wanting the best that particular company makes.

Or atleast, that's how my journey has been.

Joey

My take on the "High End "is that a very High percentage of what you are paying for is the name. there is a good number of Audio manufacturers out here that can match or even outclass some of the big names based on Sound quality. parts quality, circuit topology and how well they are executed are all that matters at the end of the day.some but not all of the "High End" gear is expensive Audio Jewelry and some of those who can afford it flaunt it. it becomes more about the prestige of owning the very top brands than it does about enjoying the Music. life is way to short, Enjoy the Music! thanks....WCW III

pearsall001

W WALDECKER wrote:

My take on the "High End "is that a very High percentage of what you are paying for is the name. there is a good number of Audio manufacturers out here that can match or even outclass some of the big names based on Sound quality. parts quality, circuit topology and how well they are executed are all that matters at the end of the day.some but not all of the "High End" gear is expensive Audio Jewelry and some of those who can afford it flaunt it. it becomes more about the prestige of owning the very top brands than it does about enjoying the Music. life is way to short, Enjoy the Music! thanks....WCW III

How true, how true!!! And I see in your sig. that you "walk the talk" so to speak. You have a pair of Klause'e superb amps. Not big bucks just "BIG" performance. I went with Frank Van Alstines OmegaStar 440 EX amp. Again, not big bucks just "BIG" performance. It's amazing what some of the other companies charge for "EYE CANDY" I guess some people feel the need to show off their new jewelry & don't mind spending big bucks in the process. I for one am not one of them.

Hawkeye

How something sounds is subjective. Regardless of what one pays for a toy. My 2 channel is all Mac gear. I liked the sound, so I bought it.

When someone buys a higher end piece, your not just buying the piece of gear. Your buying something that will be able to be repaired in 25 years from now. If you did research on Mac equipment, you'd find that people are using equipment that old. Most of the equipment, even the new stuff dosen't have the mega bells and whistles. My cd player skipped on one cd. Mac did not repair the machine. They sent me a new one. I wonder how many current companies will be able to to that. If they are still in business that long.

halo

W WALDECKER wrote:

My take on the "High End "is that a very High percentage of what you are paying for is the name. there is a good number of Audio manufacturers out here that can match or even outclass some of the big names based on Sound quality. parts quality, circuit topology and how well they are executed are all that matters at the end of the day.some but not all of the "High End" gear is expensive Audio Jewelry and some of those who can afford it flaunt it. it becomes more about the prestige of owning the very top brands than it does about enjoying the Music. life is way to short, Enjoy the Music! thanks....WCW III

BRAVO!!!

Joey_V

Hawkeye wrote:

How something sounds is subjective. Regardless of what one pays for a toy. My 2 channel is all Mac gear. I liked the sound, so I bought it.

When someone buys a higher end piece, your not just buying the piece of gear. Your buying something that will be able to be repaired in 25 years from now. If you did research on Mac equipment, you'd find that people are using equipment that old. Most of the equipment, even the new stuff dosen't have the mega bells and whistles. My cd player skipped on one cd. Mac did not repair the machine. They sent me a new one. I wonder how many current companies will be able to to that. If they are still in business that long.

MACs are pure awesome because of that... longevity is key.

hearingimpared

Joey_V wrote:

MACs are pure awesome because of that... longevity is key.

MACs are pure awesome and back in the day very expensive. Spectral Audio products are pure awesome and very expensive, prohibitively so, even back in the day. I purchased a Spectral pre in 1985. I still have, it still sounds awesome, and still exposes lesser amplifiers or source equipment but 21 years later I still have conversations from time to time with the engineers at Spectral about that same preamp. They can still tell me everything I could possibly want to know about it, how to load MM or MC catridges, how to match the DC coupled outputs to the proper amps etc. I totally agree with the longevity being the a major player in a high end purchase. BTW this pre has two inputs (phono & aux) and a tape loop. No lights, no bells, no whistles, no remote control or power switch.:)

My point in all of this is that I was lucky to land a Spectal and if I could land another Spectral piece or Mac in the used market I would lie, sneak, and finagle my wife to get it and then make up for it later.