European Vacation

tryrrthg

Big Ben, Kids, Parliament. No, not the movie...

My wife and I leave this week for a two week trip to Europe! We fly into London, then travel to Paris, Venice, Florence, and finally Rome. We're pretty excited (even though I could have had some REALLY nice upgrades to the rig with the expense of this trip). It will be worth it though. I've never been out of the country, but my wife studied abroad in college so she has some international travel experience.

Has anyone visited these cities? Any suggestions of things to visit that are off the beaten path? Or just suggestions at all. We've got all the obvious stops that we'll have time for covered, but if there is something really cool that is not obvious to us we'd like to try to check it out. Thanks!

unc2701

Jesus christ, you could spend two weeks in any one of those places. Anyhow, it's a great time to hit europe, since all the tourist spots are dead this time of year, nothing better that walking right past all the "two hours from this point in the line" signs.

Paris: Of the art museums, the louve is the clear winner. Orsay & the modern one (drawing a blank on the name) are cool, but they don't hold a candle to the louve. Notre Dame & Saint Chappelle are must see & close to each other, but don't feel like you need to you need to hike up the hill to Sacre Coure, esp if you do the eiffel tower- good view from both. (Normally, I'd say f- the eiffel tower, but this time of year, no lines!) Versailles is amazing, but if the weather sucks, it might be something to cross off the list (you have to walk about a 1/4 mile from the train station & the gardens are a big part of the appeal.

steveinaz

...skip France. There's tons of dirty cities right here in the 'ol USA. Go to Barcelona Spain instead.

unc2701

Can't speak for florence or barcelona, but they're all filthy. Seriously, people let their dogs **** right in the middle of the sidewalk and don't pick it up. Oddly, not many bums, though. Anyhow, that's not a reason not to go someplace.

jdhdiggs

If you can, avoid Paris on Tuesday or Thursday. The Louvre is closed on Tuesday's and the D'Orsey is closed on Thursday.

Venice? Make it a short visit. Stay maybe 34-30 hours then leave, you won't miss anything but the smell. The magic goes away VERY quickly.

Florence: Don't plan on driving anywhere and bone up on your history before you go. A lot happened here that most people don't ever hear about. Also, get reservations to see "David", otherwise you're hosed. Same with the other big museum (name escaping me). Ponte D'Vechio is great at night. VERY EXPENSIVE CITY!!!

Rome: Try to get reservations for the Vatican Necropolis. Very cool tour and only about 70-100 people a day get to go. If you're Catholic (or even Christian/relegious) seeing St. Peters bones/tomb is very cool. Also, there are some inexpensive hotels near the Piazza Navona which puts you in a perfect spot for touring. Less than a mile to the vatican and less than a mile from the Colloseum, one block from the Pantheon and the associated square.

One concern, for two weeks, you have a lot of travelling days. I might suggest shrinking the itenerary a bit. Depending on your historical leanings and what you like, I would recommend shrinking the trip to Paris, Rome, and Florence. That way you're not just hurried the whole time. If you could give number of days you're staying in each place and what you think is cool, it would help give some help to those that have been to those areas.

Another suggestion: In Italy and France, do not eat anywhere near the main tourist attractions. It's overpriced garbage. Go a block over or eat in one of the alley style restaraunts. Not only is it better food, it's cheaper. That, and you get better service and feeling of what the city is REALLY like

jdhdiggs

unc2701 wrote:

Can't speak for florence or barcelona, but they're all filthy. Seriously, people let their dogs **** right in the middle of the sidewalk and don't pick it up. Oddly, not many bums, though. Anyhow, that's not a reason not to go someplace.

Florence was definately cleaner than Rome and Paris, but by American standards, every major European city is "dirty".

Oh, and Tryyg: How good of shape are you in? A lot of places haven't heard the term "handicapped accessable" and are the coolest to visit. (Doumo's bell tower, Top of St. Peters Cupola, etc...)

unc2701

Damn, I missed venice was on there, too. I'd almost say skip it... or just make it a pit stop, ride through the main canal, see the square, then get the hell outta dodge. Pick one catecomb to see, but you don't need to do both rome & paris on that. Don't figure on driving inside of any of the cities and do figure on your car getting broken into, should you rent one.

Agree on the food, there are tons of restaurants in all these cities just pick up something between tourist spots... oh, any "sit down" food is going to be expensive; there's very little inbetween, either it's a lunch counter or $40 meal.

Is the louve still free one day of the week??? Sunday, maybe? Look into that.

With all of these, there's just tons of stuff in & around the city centers, so if you run into huge lines someplace you wanted to see (_definitely_ count on that at the Vatican), be flexible, whip out the guide book & there's something else right around the corner. And again, if you can, cut out some cities. There's way too much on your list right now.

How are you getting around?

tryrrthg

Thanks for the tips, guys.

I know we could spend a lot more time in each of the cities but we wanted to see a lot in case we didn't get back any time soon...

We're in London 3 nights, Paris 3 nights, and 2 nights in each of the Italian cities.

We actually plan to spend more time at the Orsay than the Louve. My wife is a huge Monet fan and would rather spend the time at Orsay where there is a pretty big Monet exhibit, I think. (too much info in my head about the trip right now, things are running together).

Venice seems to be more about just being there than anything. There isn't a lot of things we're excited about seeing there. But the trip package included it so we'll make the best of it.

jdhdiggs

I actually prefer the Orsey to the Louvre just due to the crowds.

I'd move one day from Venice to Florence or Rome if you can. If you can't, hmmm....

Rome:

Dedicate 1 day in the Vatican, get there early for the Vatican Museum. If you are sick of Museums, follow the signs to the Capella Sistina and get out of the mad house. If you dig museums and want to see exactly how much wealth the Catholic Church has, take the long route.

Take the necropolis (NOT THE CATACOMBS) tour if you are accepted. The cats in rome take at least 10 hours to do, not worth it for only 2 days. The hike to the top of St. Peters is also ver cool. Watch out for the lines though. Most people will be heading to the Popes tombs, not the cuppola. If you accidently get in those, your day is shot.

That night, walk the Piazza Navona. The best food I had in Rome was in the ally heading from the Piazza towards the Vatican. After that, go to the other side and see the Pantheon.

Next day, go walk the ruins starting from Trajens column to the Collisium. This should take a good part of the day. If you aren't tired yet, you could head to the Trevi Fountain. Spanish steps are well out of the way of everything else. The Castille D'Angelo is impressive from the outside, but with only 2 days, I'd resist the urge.

Florence is easier since it is much more compact. You have 2 museums, the square, Doumo, and Pont D'Vechio all within a 5 minute walk of each other Get reservations for the Uffizi and Accademia Gallery. After you see the Doumo, the other church's don't come close. Tour that church extensively including the babtistry and bell tower. The medici square outside the Uffizi is also pretty cool.

bobman1235

From what I hear, Venice and the surrounding areas can be pretty amazing if you can get over the smell (you're basically walking around in a sewer). Obviously a lot of history there.

Sounds like a great trip though, enjoy it! I've never been to Europe, hoping to go in a couple of years, but we'll see.

tryrrthg

jdhdiggs wrote:

Oh, and Tryyg: How good of shape are you in? A lot of places haven't heard the term "handicapped accessable" and are the coolest to visit. (Doumo's bell tower, Top of St. Peters Cupola, etc...)

I used to run sub 4:15 miles, does that count as good shape? although a back surgery has put me out of running commission I'm still pretty fit. stairs and stuff won't be a problem.

We'll be using public transportation to get around the cities. Trains will get us from city to city.

We can't move any days or else we probably would. it would just be a pain and add cost to the trip.

Keep them coming, guys. Thanks!

jdhdiggs

Don't use public transportation unless you get tired. Public transportation will only save you about 2 miles of walking in any day and a lot of the cooler stuff is in between the sites. Paris might, MIGHT be the excption, but even there we did the Eiffel Tower to the Arche d'Triumph to the Louvre to Notre Dame to D'Orsey walking in one day.

Polk65

Any chance that you can make changes or stay an extra week? You're looking at 1.5 - 2 days in each place with travel times of 3 - 11 hours between cities. My recommendation would be to skip Paris. Make this a London + Italy trip. These are all huge cities so plan on using taxi's to get around in your limited time.

Germany's Deutsche-Bahn railway has a great timetable covering just about every European country. Print out your itenerary before your trip and take it with you. This served me well in several places where there was (A) no timetable (B) no one spoke english (C) A+B and it was dark. 1st class costs a bundle but will reserve a seat for you. 2nd class is much cheaper but if there are no seats you will have to stand. No big deal as you can take a seat at the next station when people exit. Train carriages are clearly marked on the outside with 1 or 2. Buy tickets as you go. The monthly Euro-passes are a rip-off unless you travel more than 15 days in a month. Venezia S.Lucia (Venice Santa Lucia) is the train station you want for Venice.

On your way south from Florence to Rome, stop in Pisa for the leaning tower. I'd suggest taking a taxi for this because it's about a 20 minute bus ride plus wait time. Allow 1.5 - 2 hours for this side trip. Sienna is a marvelous medieval town, allow 1/2 day.

Rome: see the Spanish steps, ruins at the Forum and Colosseum. The Vatican Necropolis is awesome but is sometimes hard to get into the same day. Try and get your name on the list for the next day's tour.

Venice: get a street map. The narrow streets with tall buildings can get confusing especially as the sun goes down. A week of wandering around was barely enough and I loved every minute. I'm a sucker for old architecture and it was heaven for me. The last time I was there, all of the hotels had a discount rate for 3 nights stay. I'm not sure if they still do this but you should check. The gondola's are expensive but nice for an occasional ride. Use the water busses to save money for general travel. It's funny but after walking across 3/4 of Venice the first place I will aim for on my next visit is a small restaurant a few zigzags past the bridge facing the train station. Marinara and margherita pizzas were perfect. I discovered this place on my 2nd evening and met locals eating there which is always a good sign.

good read -> http://www.cheapvenice.com/venice-santa-lucia.htm

note: edited for clarification

tryrrthg

jdhdiggs wrote:

Don't use public transportation unless you get tired. Public transportation will only save you about 2 miles of walking in any day and a lot of the cooler stuff is in between the sites. Paris might, MIGHT be the excption, but even there we did the Eiffel Tower to the Arche d'Triumph to the Louvre to Notre Dame to D'Orsey walking in one day.

Yeah, we'll be walking most everything but if something is clear across town then we'll be taking public trans.

I think we're going to take two bicycle tours in Paris so that should get us around pretty well. One of the tours is at night and includes a boat cruise down the Seine river, which should be cool.

Polk65 wrote:

Any chance you can make changes or stay an extra week?

Nope, stretching the budget as is. and we bought a package deal so we can't change anything without adding expenses since everything is paid for.

ND13

I've always been told to skip any major French city and visit the French countryside and smaller villages. The city dwellers hate Americans, while the county folk love us...they remember who saved their collective arses...not once, but twice in the last 100 years.

jdhdiggs

ND13 wrote:

I've always been told to skip any major French city and visit the French countryside and smaller villages. The city dwellers hate Americans, while the county folk love us...they remember who saved their collective arses...not once, but twice in the last 100 years.

Yup, in Paris you need to check your food for spit. It isn't that they hate Americans, they just hate everyone who might expect them to actually do their job. That's one thing you will definately notice: Most Europeans (and virtually all public servents) are lazy and late in everything they do. Watch for scooters in Rome

tryrrthg

ND13 wrote:

I've always been told to skip any major French city and visit the French countryside and smaller villages. The city dwellers hate Americans, while the county folk love us...they remember who saved their collective arses...not once, but twice in the last 100 years.

jdhdiggs wrote:

Yup, in Paris you need to check your food for spit. It isn't that they hate Americans, they just hate everyone who might expect them to actually do their job. That's one thing you will definately notice: Most Europeans (and virtually all public servents) are lazy and late in everything they do. Watch for scooters in Rome

So what you're saying is I shouldn't wear a "W" t-shirt.

Sami

jdhdiggs wrote:

Most Europeans (and virtually all public servents) are lazy and late in everything they do.

I take it you have spent time only in South Europe. North is quite the opposite (expect for public servants, they usually are lazy anywhere in the world:)).

jdhdiggs

If England, France, and Germany are in the South... But yeah, the Northern guys are a little more prompt.

A "W" shirt? Actually, you'd probably get more crap for it in the US than anywhere else in the world. The Saudi's, Iranian's, Iraqi's that I talked to on my last trip like the guy and can't believe that people in US speak ill of him at all (these were blue collar workers, not management). It took a lot of convincing to get them to believe that most of our country doesn't like the guy and how the media tries to shred him every chance they get.

Polk65

tryrrthg wrote:

So what you're saying is I shouldn't wear a "W" t-shirt.

Most of them wouldn't get it. Wearing a baseball cap with a letter, blue jeans and Nike's will tell them where you are from. Go native and wear slacks or Adidas. :rolleyes:

jdhdiggs wrote:

Watch for scooters in Rome

I think he means watch out for them.

You can walk some of the way but buses or taxis will be essential unless you plan on walking at a fast pace all day. Then you'll be the one attracting flies. Most of the tourist spots are several miles apart so I used the buses when I could but my feet still ached.

I was there for an extended period and never had any problems with the people, food or smells. Just the same stuff you might encounter in any large city. Get your street smarts on while traveling, especially at the train stations and at night. In some train stations you will see guards with automatic rifles. Relax, it's normal.

The best piece of travel advice I can give is remember to keep your important documents buried deep in your shoulder bag. Some thieves like to slash outer pockets that are easy targets when you are not looking.

Ketchup is not free at American fast food joints, it costs extra.

Reconsider the extra expense for an itinerary change. If you're not planning on going back in the next 5 years it is worth it so treat yourselves. Otherwise just prepare yourself to move when the time comes then wind down when you get the chance. You are going to be pressed for time and traveling a lot so sit down together before you go and decide on what you each want to see. This will cut down the stress when you are there so that you can enjoy the sights. Take lots of photos to remember your travels!

The coolest thing I brought home with me was sort of a Matrix experience. Traveling in other countries for awhile and reading foreign news can burst the bubble you've been living in. Especially reading foreign news about your home country. It's a good thing.

unc2701

Laziness: you'll laugh your balls off at security in De Gaulle... The literally didn't even look at my passport. Couldn't believe it. However, I found the parisians to be very polite and had no issues. My brother, on the other hand, thought they were the worlds biggest ****. Go figure.

Museums: Since you don't have time to wander, find so maps online and just hit the highlights- you can do both the Orsay & louve in one day if you just are looking for specific works. Mona Lisa? not worth it (and there WILL be a crowd), but you kinda gotta see for yourself.

I don't think rome has the multisite passes, but Paris used to, and might still. As long as you hit 3-4 of the sites you'll come out ahead. I wish I'd done that in Ireland... got nickel & dimed for about $100, when the full country pass was only like $25.

Public transport: Works great, but you'll miss lot. Stick to walking unless you find yourself on the otherside of the city & need to get back to the hotel.

Polk65

unc2701 wrote:

Laziness: you'll laugh your balls off at security in De Gaulle... The literally didn't even look at my passport.

I don't think rome has the multisite passes, but Paris used to, and might still. As long as you hit 3-4 of the sites you'll come out ahead. I wish I'd done that in Ireland... got nickel & dimed for about $100, when the full country pass was only like $25.

You too? The passport agent looked so disinterested I could have had another head sticking out of my coat and he would still have let me through.

Multipass... good point. Paris like some other large European cities has a tourist pass that covers bus travel and museum fees.

edit:

Regarding the multipass... scratch that idea. €69 2-day ticket. "The pass does not give admission to temporary exhibitions or guided visits." http://www.paris-pass.com/index.asp

Instead buy the 10 ticket deal in the Paris metro and pay for the exhibits you want to see.

Good read -> http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Europe/France/Ile_de_France/Paris-99080/Warnings_or_Dangers-Paris-Metro_Trains-BR-1.html

"To avoid that you´ll lose you travel company, you have to make one agreement before using the Metro: If the doors of the Metro close and not everybody is inside, you step out the forthcoming station and wait for the next ones. Then you can never lose each other."

unc2701

Yep- we walked up and handed the guy our passports, he glances at them (doesn't open them) and hands them back without ever looking up from his paper. the wife wanted the stamp in her passport and dude acted like we were trying to bum $50 off him.

I almost forgot- the redlight district in paris is pretty amusing. Just south of it are all these cool little guitar shops, so I'm walking along checking out guitars, then suddenly a 50 year old hooker is propositioning me in five different languages. I must look european, cause she tries french, german, italian, then hits me with english... (I'm standing there like a dumbass trying to figure out what this trampy looking lady is trying to say to me) **** takes a huge drag off her cigarette then drops "ehhhh, you want to f- me in my a--... your lady friend can watch for free, you want to meet my friend?".... takes another drag, then starts over in spanish (exact same thing, 'cause I actually understand spanish)... I just start laughing, meanwhile the wife is dragging me off and the exact same thing happens on the next street over.

jdhdiggs

The only place security is tight for in Europe is Germany and England. I have yet to even hand my passport to an official in Italy. My wife actually demanded the guy to stamp it...

jdhdiggs

unc2701 wrote:

Yep- we walked up and handed the guy our passports, he glances at them (doesn't open them) and hands them back without ever looking up from his paper. the wife wanted the stamp in her passport and dude acted like we were trying to bum $50 off him.
.

D'oh, you beat me to it...

unc2701 wrote:

I almost forgot- the redlight district in paris is pretty amusing. Just south of it are all these cool little guitar shops, so I'm walking along checking out guitars, then suddenly a 50 year old hooker is propositioning me in five different languages. I must look european, cause she tries french, german, italian, then hits me with english... (I'm standing there like a dumbass trying to figure out what this trampy looking lady is trying to say to me) **** takes a huge drag off her cigarette then drops "ehhhh, you want to f- me in my a--... your lady friend can watch for free, you want to meet my friend?".... takes another drag, then starts over in spanish (exact same thing, 'cause I actually understand spanish)... I just start laughing, meanwhile the wife is dragging me off and the exact same thing happens on the next street over.

Hey, at least she was enterprizing!

wodom1

Last year my girlfriend and I spent five days in Paris and three days in London. I wish we switched it. Paris was nice but I have no desire to go back anytime soon. We did stay at a really cool hotel recommended by my brother called Hotel Esmeralda. It was right across from Notre Dame and I could look out the window and see the Cathedral. On our last night there, we were in a cafe with a friend of my girlfriends who happened to be in town for business when the cafe got robbed. We went to Musee d'Orsay, the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower, and climbed up the Arc de Triumph (long, tiring walk up!).

London, I thought, was fantastic! We stayed in Kensington Park and walked most of the time, though we did take a couple double-decker bus rides. I almost wish we had stayed in London for the entire trip. There's a great fish shop in London right by the Tower Bridge (across the river from the Tower of London) called "Fish!" I recommend it as a great place to have lunch or dinner. If your wife drags you to Harrod's, note that there is a pub there. While the girlfriend was shopping, I had a couple pints of Harrod's Bitter and caught up on the news. I think that every department store should follow this example. Girl shops, guy drinks. My idea of the perfect department store!

tryrrthg

wodom1 wrote:

If your wife drags you to Harrod's, note that there is a pub there. While the girlfriend was shopping, I had a couple pints...

Excellent!

Polk65

This will be a most excellent trip and one that you will both remember for the rest of time.

I'm not sure why some have posted about filth and smell. I did the European trek thing from July-December and never caught a whiff of anything bad.
16 countries and no problems. Mental rain in Paris during October and a new pair of shoes was my only complaint but was good for the trek across Roma.

I **** you not. This rain was like the legendary golf ball hail in Texas where locals park underneath overpasses.

Regarding stamps there is a pattern. The large entry cities will have more police and mad stampers. Once in the E.U. you will notice less scrutiny. I had to beg most agents to stamp my passport and even then, they stamped random pages. The only surprise was in the Czech Republic. Federal police boarded the train at each station and checked papers but refused to stamp.

Paris was good for viewing art and drinking cheap whine. I honestly enjoyed dozens of $3 reds comparable to near floating on an airplane. It amazed me that the wine was cheaper to make than the glass.

wodom1 wrote:

If your wife drags you to Harrod's, note that there is a pub there. While the girlfriend was shopping, I had a couple pints of Harrod's Bitter and caught up on the news. I think that every department store should follow this example. Girl shops, guy drinks. My idea of the perfect department store!

German men with carry decided this a long time ago. If the Brits can play it, cool.

Nugget. I spent 6 months of my life across Europe and thought that Venice would be the short end of the trip. Guess what, it was good. Next to Hungary and Slovenia, the food quality and quantity was the best compared to regular tourist towns. Of 16 countries visited, Italy was by no doubt the best.

bobman1235

Just FYI Polk65, the only "smell" fokls mentioned was in Venice, which is basically an exposed sewer, and pretty rank most days.

Tour2ma

Everyone has to start somewhere... looks like a good recon trip.

Polk65 wrote:

...Italy was by no doubt the best.

Ditto...
Trains ran late (Please dont use the crapper in the station) ...
Introduced to "squatatoriums" at the Vatican...
A whole town was closed on Monday (Gavi)...

Scan of the thread did not note much food discussion... It does not get any better than Italy.

If you have time to travel up the coast from Florence, check out the "cinque terre", the five lands (or villages), AKA the Italian Riviera.
http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/avong/cinque_terre/the_five_villages.htm
All have something to offer, but of the five, Vernazza was my favorite... friendly, picturesque, and the birthplace of pesto.

On food... while in London, look for curry houses, tappas and other non-British establishments. With the possible exception of Fish and Chips, everything you've heard about English cooking has been true.

jdhdiggs

Tour, I was going to mention Cinque Terra,, but with the limited days he has, I thought I'd leave it off. Vernazza and Corniglia were great. My wife and I hiked the whole way from Monterosso to Riomaggiore. Spent a week or to there. Great time, Lemoncello is the devil.

Savona to Genoa is really nice as well.