Toob Part 3

Joey_V
Joey_V Posts: 8,552
edited October 2006 in 2 Channel Audio
Ok ok... now that the amp has been settled, it's time to move onto the.... PREAMP!!

Ok, so let's set some ground rules... first, I want something with resale value, so let's stay away from obscure companies. Secondly, let's focus on tube preamps. Thirdly, let's not blow Joey's wallet to smithereens.

OK? Cool.

Let me start by saying that I really really enjoyed my stint with Rogue Audio's Metis preamp... it wasnt too expensive and I enjoyed the sound very very much. I felt that it was the sound I was looking for (and if it could be improved that much more with the upcoming Plinius Amp, that would be just delightful). Anyway, it's about the sound and I really enjoyed the Metis. I returned it because the demo trial ended after 24hours, but I could always head back and buy it. Another thing, I like rock solid image and the Metis gave me just that for a cheap bargain I thought....

Anyway, other preamps I've considered have ranged from BAT to Cary to Sonic Frontiers, although all are a little pricey.

There is one pre that I've heard and thought was good sounding and utterly gorgeous... the Hovland HP-100. :eek:

Pricey? Very.
Sweet looking? VERY!
Great sounding? VERY!

Here is a pic or 2!
1159152372.jpg
1159152375.jpg

Alright, let the suggestions begin. But I will tell you ahead of time, I'm really leaning toward the Rogue as I get FULL warranty and it is by a dealer.... not to mention, I like the sound and I like the price and I like the look.

:)
Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • W WALDECKER
    W WALDECKER Posts: 900
    edited October 2006
    Joey_V wrote:
    Ok ok... now that the amp has been settled, it's time to move onto the.... PREAMP!!

    Ok, so let's set some ground rules... first, I want something with resale value, so let's stay away from obscure companies. Secondly, let's focus on tube preamps. Thirdly, let's not blow Joey's wallet to smithereens.

    OK? Cool.

    Let me start by saying that I really really enjoyed my stint with Rogue Audio's Metis preamp... it wasnt too expensive and I enjoyed the sound very very much. I felt that it was the sound I was looking for (and if it could be improved that much more with the upcoming Plinius Amp, that would be just delightful). Anyway, it's about the sound and I really enjoyed the Metis. I returned it because the demo trial ended after 24hours, but I could always head back and buy it. Another thing, I like rock solid image and the Metis gave me just that for a cheap bargain I thought....

    Anyway, other preamps I've considered have ranged from BAT to Cary to Sonic Frontiers, although all are a little pricey.

    There is one pre that I've heard and thought was good sounding and utterly gorgeous... the Hovland HP-100. :eek:

    Pricey? Very.
    Sweet looking? VERY!
    Great sounding? VERY!

    Here is a pic or 2!
    1159152372.jpg
    1159152375.jpg

    Alright, let the suggestions begin. But I will tell you ahead of time, I'm really leaning toward the Rogue as I get FULL warranty and it is by a dealer.... not to mention, I like the sound and I like the price and I like the look.

    :)
    Hey Joey,i dont know what your budget looks like for a tube preamplifier? Upscale audio whom i have dealt with in the past and trust is an authorised Balanced Audio Technology dealer has a demo BAT VK30 with the full factory warranty. it comes with a remote and phono stage and has the original box and manual. retail price $3995.00 upscale price $2595.00 it can be upgraded to the SE version by BAT but its not a cheap upgrade! thanks....WCW III :)
    Rogue Audio stereo 100 tube amplifier - Lector Zoe preamplifier with 6H30 pi's
    .Audience AU24SE speaker and ic cables- Chord Qutest DAC - Black Cat Silverstar II 75ohm digital cable-Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature system with large bass cabinets to accommodate 10" Seas magnesium woofers.2xhmpsuownoj.jpg
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited October 2006
    Check out Conrad Johnson gear. I have their PV14L tube preamp & really enjoy it. Cheers!!!
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    Budget is really all over the place. I mean, on the one hand, I like to keep it under $800... like the Rogue Audio Metis pre. But on the other hand, I dont mind it being $1400-1500 if it's a good upgrade - as in the Rogue Audio Perseus. But then again, I could spend just a bit more if I got a pre that is just nuts... say $2500-3000 for something like a used Hovland HP-100 pre shown above.

    The problem is, I cant demo it all... there's just no way.

    I've heard the Rogue and I can live with that sound for a looong time. And I've heard the Hovland HP-100, but on a Hovland Radia amp and on Sonus Faber Cremonas which was stunning to say the least.

    So it's difficult to say since I cant compare apples to apples.

    Which is why suggestions are great.

    I'll check out the CJ and the BAT... thanks pearsall and wcw!

    Anyone else?
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    edited October 2006
    Joey, I been away for the last couple of days and missed all your tube posts.

    WTF dude? Are you braindead? You heard an all tube rig at my place and now you want to switch? I told you that the McAlister destroyed the Rotel at SCompRacer's. Normanality can back that statement up.

    What are the three muskateers running now? TAD-60'S bi-amping Innersound electrostats (Rich & Norm) with me running behind with only one TAD-60 pushing my Von's.

    TAD is in your backyard. Local pick up available. Trial period. 3-year warranty and outstanding CS. Check it out before you make up your mind. link Sale price: link

    FWIW - We're all using Tung Sol 6550's right now but Rich may go back to the KT-77's.
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    Victor,

    True I heard your setup, but it wasnt an A/B nor was it on my speakers. I need a SS amp running the Summits and I went full Class A with the Plinius as this has worked magically with a lot of the other ML owners. I have decided to go tubes for the preamp section and I searched for Mcalister pres, but I couldnt find it.

    As for the TAD, I'm sure it's good, but I need a pre, not an amp. I already purchased the Plinius.

    Joey
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,552
    edited October 2006
    You passed on the kw500 for a Plinius and yet to be determined pre amp? LOL
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    F1nut wrote:
    You passed on the kw500 for a Plinius and yet to be determined pre amp? LOL

    Yup.

    Even the owner of the MF KW500 agreed that a Plinius with a tube preamp of decent quality is the better way to go. More flexibility and Class A.

    And the original owner of my Summits told me to go with the Plinius over the MF KW500 that he used to own.

    Not to mention, full warranty and brand new from the store which ended up to be a far better deal than the KW500 with money left over for a good preamp.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    F1nut wrote:
    You passed on the kw500 for a Plinius and yet to be determined pre amp? LOL

    Atleast you could help out by pointing to a pre instead of laughing. Last time I checked, this was about me picking up components that I was comfortable with.

    Sure, the KW500 probably kicks serious a$$, no doubt. Heard it before and I know what it can do straight out of the Summits. But I wanted some flexibility in the end. I wanted to try tube rolling and I didnt want to be stuck with 1 sound. Plus, the KW500 didnt seem to have good resale on the 'gon, while all the Plinius amps didnt last long before being picked up. Even the 10 year old Plinius amps still picked up great resale values.

    Either decision was a win-win... no lol's necessary.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited October 2006
    lol

    OK, sorry Joey could not resist. Well, cant say I necessarily agree but yep it is about your needs so congrats on the Plinius which is a nice piece. I can tell you I found the BAT pre in my rack to be very neutral although I am using an SE model.

    RT1
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2006
    lol, are you going to use vinyl in your system or strictly CD? Manley is worth looking at. They have two standard pre's and another with phono pre. www.manleylabs.com
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    edited October 2006
    McAlister preamps sound fantastic but there is no remote. Normanality might still have his.

    I'm using a VTL 2.5 and I'm very happy with it. Rich and Norm have switched to Modwright preamps and SACD DVD-A. You might want to check out Modwright or ask them as they are running big electrostats too.

    I heard the Rouge gear at Decibel and wasn't impressed especially at that price point.

    Hope you like the Plinius.

    You might actually want to entertain the idea of new IC's and speaker cables too. ;)
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    Halo wrote:
    I heard the Rouge gear at Decibel and wasn't impressed especially at that price point.

    Hope you like the Plinius.

    You might actually want to entertain the idea of new IC's and speaker cables too. ;)

    Thanks Victor for the tips and the well wishes.

    Remember, you cannot discount how something sounds (like a preamp) without having it connected to your system with your own speakers, source and amp at the helm. It's a very difficult sound to assess with so many question-marks hooked up to it.

    Joey
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,552
    edited October 2006
    Sorry Joey.

    The flexibility you speak of can be a good thing or a bad thing, the trick is finding the right pre amp. With something like the kw there is no gamble. 90+% of the time most good amps run Class A, so I don't see that as an issue.

    You're right, the experience of the previous owner is probably worth listening to.

    From what I've seen, 30% off list is damn good resale, most stuff drops 50% two seconds after it's sold new.

    I would try to ask other owners of the Plinius what their experience has been with tube pre amps. It'll help get you were you want to be faster.

    I hope you'll enjoy your new set up.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited October 2006
    Halo wrote:
    McAlister preamps sound fantastic but there is no remote. Normanality might still have his.

    There are remote kits that can be easily installed; I've seen some cheap ($60) but not sure how good components are...

    I am getting this for my AES AE-3 DJH preamp; only issue is that it has a DC motor to move the pot....it might give some interference (only while being activated though).

    http://www.audioelectronicsupply.com/cgi-bin/audioelectronicsupply.com/view_services.cgi?request=detail&dept_id=5&aisle_id=51&prod_num=RVC_2
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited October 2006
    TAD does have the 150 preamp with remote, I'm not sure if Bizzy Bee in Wheaton still has them but they show up on Audiogon pretty often. Seems to be a killer preamp at a decent price! I have the Audcom 110 which is by the same Chinese outfit that TAD sources the 150 pre from, and it is scary-good for the price. I had a chance to directly compare the Audcom 110 and Rogue 66 Magnum to the Conrad Johnson PV14L and PV17 pre's in my system. Both the Audcom and Rogue killed the CJ pre's with the Magnepans. The CJ's have sloppy low-end with the stock tubes. I also had a Cary pre, a 98SLP if I remember correctly, and it was a leap ahead of the Audcom, Rogue, and CJ's. It would be my next step up.

    I run vertically bi-amped Parasound HCA-1500's with Magnepan 1.6QR, Signal Cable Ultra speaker cables.
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited October 2006
    The problem with remotes is their innate ability to alter the signal and add parts which break down, the worste applications being intergrated circuits. Of course these problems are in direct contrast to the convenience they provide. When looking for a pre I would certainly see how the remote system handles its task. Some other things to look for might be a mono switch, polarity switch, assignable inputs and dual outputs along with adequate power supplies, capacitor set up and metal film resistors, along with a lack of silicon parts.

    RT1
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited October 2006
    Modwright is a great pre, you can read up on it on AudioAsylum and there are plenty of great reviews on it. I personally like 6moons and if I recall correctly Srajan bought the unit he had on demo. Sounded phenomenal in my system, but the gain was to much as I listen at low volumes. I did a mini review here and the 6moons review can be found here. A great product that is already using great quality parts.

    Retails for $2200 and one just sold on agon for $1550, I agree with F1nut 30% off MSRP is a fine resale price.

    Jared
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    I've been getting a lot of tips to go with the Modwright... hmm..

    F1, no harm done man.... I know you're just looking out for me. MF KW500 is definitely killer and I know exactly by what you mean by get it and be done with it. In the end, I figured, I could always scale up the pre and get something very good one day and should beat out the KW500 with the Plinius on anchor.... this according to the previous KW500 owner. Even if I start out with a modest tube pre at the moment, I'm really in no rush. The fact that I can scale the Summits to an even better sound is rewarding enough for me as I already found myself in audio nirvana with the Rotels alone.

    Modwright, I'll look at more.

    The Rogue is interesting for me because I get full warranty and trade up program is included with the dealer.

    I'll keep you guys posted.

    Joey
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,552
    edited October 2006
    Cool :)
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited October 2006
    When will the madness end?;) lol

    There's too many pre's to choose from in your price range, especially if you consider used.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    Organ...

    I know!!! This blows cuz I cant demo them all. I know the Plinius will be an awesome amp to anchor a pre on.... so many choices... so little time!

    If I cant decide, I'm going to have to go modest right now and learn the tooby ways then move on to the bigger boys as time permits. No rush for Joey.

    Joey
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited October 2006
    One thing you can do is try a bunch of different mid level tube pre amps. Get them used and re-sell when you're ready to try another.

    What you can do during this time is find out which family of tubes is your favorite for pre amp duties. There's the 12AU7, 12AX7, 6922, 6SN7, etc.

    Once you find the one you like most, upgrade to a high end pre that is built around your favorite small signal tube.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,497
    edited October 2006
    For what it is worth, the Modwright pre works great with our ESL's. You don't have alot of tube rolling options. 5687, 7119, 7044's and the infamous Bendix 6900 ICBM tube. Tung Sol 5687's are my fav in the pre amp, and the 6900 in the SACD.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2006
    Good point on the tube rolling. Maybe stick with something that uses 12ax(at)7 tubes or something else that has a huge amount of variations. My AI has the 6922's and is particular about which ones it works well with. It's ok because it sounds good with anything but more of a choice would have been nice.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited October 2006
    Joey -- be careful about your choice of preamp, 'cuz you could end up on the upgrade rollercoaster. Use the same process you did in choosing the amp -- identify two "high end" tube preamps that are highly regarded and have good resale value, then make a decision.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    Early,
    Ill keep that in mind... good suggestion.
    Joey
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,552
    edited October 2006
    Just want to say thanks to everyone... I'm pleased to declare that Joey is....

    DONE!
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited October 2006
    Done? we all want to know what does that mean.....
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited October 2006
    I think Joey is just getting started... :)
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • jm1
    jm1 Posts: 618
    edited October 2006
    From another thread Joey responded to:

    "Endless quest to reach audio nirvana.... although just when I thought I reached it, a 3 minute audition with a lowly Rogue Audio Metis tube pre showed me exactly how much further the ML Summits could scale up the audio mountain. The result of the in-home audition? A Plinius SA102 and a Hovland HP-100 are on their way as of today."
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer
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