lsi-9 performance

Audio5oh

Sometimes I get a little confused with this home theater/LSi9 mumbo jumbo. I thought that overpowering the speakers would cause a tweeter to blow out, but not from insufficient power. Also, the LSi9's have a recommended amplifier power of 20-200 w/channel, but yet the Outlaw states, "300 watts RMS x 5 @ 4 ohms" on their 7500 model. Polk claims the LSi9's run on a nominal impedance of 4 ohms. If you don't mind, can you explain the differences, cause I'm lost.

danger boy

to properly run the Lsi and other 4ohm speakers.. you need a amp capable of powering 4ohm speakers. 200wpc is recommended.. but it's not the law.

underpowering your speakers can do more damage to the tweeters and the other drivers more than overpowering them.. as long as you have a good high current amp to push them with.

Most receiver either can not handle the 4ohm load that the LSi speakers require.. OR they can but damage may occur from the receiver being taxed.

200watts is just a recommendation.. not that law. You can run the LSi fine on 100watts, but 200 is better. More headroom. Here again.. alot of receivers can't adequately power 4ohm speakers. whereby an external amp can.

cfrizz

My Philosophy for Audio Gear

I see that you and others are getting confused because I’m saying one thing about amplifier power & the guys are saying something else. It’s because we have 2 completely different mindsets when it comes to this hobby!

What I have noticed is the guys are CONSTANTLY upgrading in small incremental steps. They might start out with a 50wpc amp, then go to 100, then 150, then 200 etc. Each time singing its praises until they go up another notch!

This enables them to scratch their audio upgraditis itch & try out new things while spending less money at the time.

I am at the total opposite end of the spectrum! I want to make the best & biggest purchase that I can the first time around & keep it for years! The reason being, I have neither the space, patience or most importantly money to operate in that manner.

It’s also wasteful as far as I’m concerned. If they totaled up the amount of money they have spent doing little upgrades, they probably have purchased their systems 10 x over! But that’s what they like so have at it.

I’ve been serious about my audio equipment for the last 25 yrs. or so, and I have learned a lot & have tried to pass that knowledge on consistently. But it usually goes against the grain & view point for the majority of the guys here whose info can change for any given situation.

I have always been lucky enough to get good equipment the first time around. I started out 16 yrs ago with separates by Rotel. A 50wpc amplifier & a stereo preamp. The amp ran my then & now Polk RTA-8T’s. They sounded great. About 4 yrs ago I ran out of inputs on the back of my prepro & decided to enter the HT market. By this time I was living on my own & couldn’t afford another Rotel, so I went to Tweeter & got a Denon receiver with the proviso that it should at least be the equivalent of my Rotel equipment. That got me the Denon 3802 & I couldn’t tell a difference between its 110wpc to my 50wpc separate amplifier, so I was happy. Now anyone that dares to tell me that my Rotel amp is not a good quality amp I’m going to call a liar! All things being equal I was probably getting about 50wpc from the Denon rather than 110. At this time I was still 2 channel.

I slowly got more speakers, then in 2004 I found Club Polk! I slowly read & soaked up as much info as I could get. (that was in plain english) And the guys were more than willing to help me improve my system & I have learned a lot.

I started thinking about getting the LSI’s & I asked if my receiver could handle it & I was soundly told NO! They said I should get a high current separate amplifier & plug it into my Denon. I equate high current with high wpc! I bought a 205wpc Parasound 2 channel amp & my Polk SPEAKERS CAME ALIVE! Now the amplifier recommendation for them is I think, 30-250wpc. I then realized that they sounded good with 50wpc but they sound OUTSTANDING with 205wpc. You just don’t know how different they sound until you hear it for yourself.

I also believe in planning for the future, that is why I went with such a high powered amp. And knowing that I will never have to worry about hurting any of my equipment due to insufficient power is a relief.

I was skeptical in the beginning about needing so much power, but in the 2 yrs I have been on this club has shown me that MORE is better because I’ve seen more “HELP I’ve blown my tweeter or my receiver went into protect mode WHY???"

So after seeing all of those threads & knowing for myself what that power can do for mine or ANYONE'S speakers, I have settled on 200wpc as the minimum wattage for all 8/4ohm tower speakers & also for any bookshelves that are 4ohm.

So if it sounds contradictory to what everyone else is saying, they have only themselves to blame! I’ve watched, listened & learned the lessons that these guys like learning over & over & over again in search of the perfect sound or just to satisfy their upgrade itch!

Cathy

MSALLA

I agree with what your saying. But are you trying to say you don't ever get the itch to just get something new? Treat yourself to a new toy. (or is that toy itch a guy thing. You know "most toys wins")

cheddar

Now Cathy,

How can you make us sound so bad? You know you can get two and three channel amps with the EXACT same power ratings. So adding them up as funds allow actually means you don't have to axe the old amp but you end up with 400wpc or more in the end instead of 200wpc.

Now the only thing you lose is space. So if you mean that men are much more likely to just take a saw and cut a hole in their livingroom for a bigger rack or wire in a dedicated power line to feed it all, I heartily agree .

cheddar

Audio5oh wrote:

Sometimes I get a little confused with this home theater/LSi9 mumbo jumbo. I thought that overpowering the speakers would cause a tweeter to blow out, but not from insufficient power. Also, the LSi9's have a recommended amplifier power of 20-200 w/channel, but yet the Outlaw states, "300 watts RMS x 5 @ 4 ohms" on their 7500 model. Polk claims the LSi9's run on a nominal impedance of 4 ohms. If you don't mind, can you explain the differences, cause I'm lost.

It is confusing, no doubt about that. First, you probably won't ever get to 300 wpc on your speakers without blowing out your ears unless you have a very very big listening room.

That said, you have to remember that all you are really doing is amplifying the signal out of the pre-amp (receiver pre-outs). This is a tiny electrical signal that contains all the movie and musical sound information. When it hits the amplifier, you 'amplify' this signal to a point where your speakers can actually produce audible sound. Now here's the problem. Under powered amps can lose control of the power they send to the speakers, so instead of just amplifying the signal, they send who knows what junky power feed into your delicate tweeters and blam, you've fried them. Amps that are large and in control continue to accurately amplify the signal all the way up to a maximum where they will automatically cut the signal to prevent sending out a distorted signal. But if you are constantly maxing out the dial of any amp, you probably should upgrade.

Like I said before, though, it's very hard to actually feed 300wpc even into LSIs without damaging your hearing.

cheddar

BrianV,

I thought in your other thread that what you are really buying is peace of mind for not blowing your speakers. And I think that's what you got. If you remember, I recommended that you audition gear before you settle on a solution. Everyone hears different stuff from their gear. The difference in good amplification vs. the difference in a different pre-amp signal is something that different people hear differently. That's why auditioning stuff is so important if you want to know for sure if spending a certain amount of money is worth the difference (or not) in the sound quality. But nobody is going to be able to tell you the end result in audio quality on a forum. That's why it was bad taste to just start attacking people.

Bottom line is if you're happy with your gear (wasn't it for primarily home theater and loudness factor), then just get your listen on and enjoy it. Other people are generally talking about nuances in sound quality with higher and higher end gear, not loudness.

Holydoc

Cathy for President!

Jim Shearer

Cathy has pretty much nailed it. Buy it right, buy it once. Don't skimp on the power.

My view:
1) People under estimate how loud they listen to music, just like they under estimate how many calories they eat. And the cleaner the sound, the louder they tend to crank it.
2) More speakers are destroyed by too little power than by too much power. Clipping is what happens when you turn the gain up beyond what the amp can deliver. The tops of the wave forms can't be reproduced, as the amp is at the limit of its power, and new waveforms are generated as the amp goes unstable--lots of higher order harmonics that weren't in the original signal. The tweeter is usually the first to go, but other drivers can be damaged as well.
3) I hear you saying: But the amp only needs to deliver a few watts of power most of the time! OK, but you aren't listening to pure tones that are simple sign waves. Music can be broken down into sign waves, but the sum of all those sign waves is very complex, and contains some sharp, large excursions which we call transients. To accommodate a transient that is twice as loud as the average signal, you need 10 times the power. More often, you'll need more like 100 times the power. If you were using 3 watts on average, then for the transient you'll need 300 watts. I believe that when folks talk about their music coming alive when they get a nice, big amp, what they are hearing is the proper reproduction of the transients.
4) Mass-market AVRs generally use switching power supplies, as opposed to the old-style power supplies that use a large (spell that heavy) transformer and giant filter capacitors. Why? Because the switching power supplies are much cheaper to build, are efficient, and weigh relatively little. That's how you get a 100 wpc X5 in a box you can lift w/o getting a hernia. The down side is that they don't have the 'head room' of the old style power supply. When they say 100 watts, they mean 100 watts, not 101 watts (and that's only if they're being honest; some manufacturers don't quite deliver all they promise.) The old-style power supplies have those big caps, siting there full of power, so when you get a big transient, the amp can deliver a peak of 300 to 500 watts, even if it can only supply 100 watts continuous. The result is good music and less likelihood of a blown tweeter.
5) Some people enjoy the buying and selling of equipment as much as listening to the music. Maybe even more. So there will be folks who constantly upgrade. Those folks are probably disproportionately represented on forms like this. The ones who get a rig they like, then kick back and revel in the music don't come here much, 'cause they're too busy enjoying their music. Note that I say this w/o making judgement on either group: if it brings you joy and doesn't hurt anyone, then go for it!
Cheers, Jim

Joey_V

Cathy,

While I dont completely understand why you say that we guys buy incrementally, from reading your report, you seemed to have done the same also. Perhaps not necessarily out of upgraditis, but you went from a 50wpc Rotel, to a 110w Denon, to the 205wpc Parasound. Seems incremental to me. Now, dont think I'm trying to start anything... nonono, I have too much respect for you to do that. But, I'm just pointing out that no one ever goes from zero to hero in one shot. Your Denon may have been a purchase out of necessity, but it was still an incremental upgrade, if not for the sound, but for the convenience of more inputs.

I will not disagree with your incremental mentality when it comes to me... I am the poster boy for upgraditis, sad as it may be.

Joey

cfrizz

I wasn't trying to make you all sound bad, I was just stating what seems to be the apparent facts of the vocal majority here on CP!:D

You end up with 400wpc in 3 or more separate boxes!:eek: If you have that kind of space & outlets for it, GO FOR IT!! I don't, & I like the one big box solution which is practically a necessity in todays small apartments!

cheddar wrote:

Now Cathy,

How can you make us sound so bad? You know you can get two and three channel amps with the EXACT same power ratings. So adding them up as funds allow actually means you don't have to axe the old amp but you end up with 400wpc or more in the end instead of 200wpc.

Now the only thing you lose is space. So if you mean that men are much more likely to just take a saw and cut a hole in their livingroom for a bigger rack or wire in a dedicated power line to feed it all, I heartily agree .

cfrizz

Yes I have gotten the itch to try something new which is why I upgraded my 16 yr old Rotel 855 cd player to my Rotel 1072 cd player! You know what I discovered?

THEY ARE PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL IN SOUND & SPECS! There just might be a touch more clarity in the 1072.

So I learned if you buy good high quality components the first time around, there is hardly ever a need to upgrade unless it breaks!

So for the most part the upgrade itch seems to be a guy thing! (With Darla being a MAJOR exception!:eek: )

MSALLA wrote:

I agree with what your saying. But are you trying to say you don't ever get the itch to just get something new? Treat yourself to a new toy. (or is that toy itch a guy thing. You know "most toys wins")

cfrizz

For those of you who needed a more technical explanation, here it is!

Thank You Jim! I didn't understand half of it but I'm sure you are correct!:eek:

Jim Shearer wrote:

Cathy has pretty much nailed it. Buy it right, buy it once. Don't skimp on the power.

My view:
1) People under estimate how loud they listen to music, just like they under estimate how many calories they eat. And the cleaner the sound, the louder they tend to crank it.
2) More speakers are destroyed by too little power than by too much power. Clipping is what happens when you turn the gain up beyond what the amp can deliver. The tops of the wave forms can't be reproduced, as the amp is at the limit of its power, and new waveforms are generated as the amp goes unstable--lots of higher order harmonics that weren't in the original signal. The tweeter is usually the first to go, but other drivers can be damaged as well.
3) I hear you saying: But the amp only needs to deliver a few watts of power most of the time! OK, but you aren't listening to pure tones that are simple sign waves. Music can be broken down into sign waves, but the sum of all those sign waves is very complex, and contains some sharp, large excursions which we call transients. To accommodate a transient that is twice as loud as the average signal, you need 10 times the power. More often, you'll need more like 100 times the power. If you were using 3 watts on average, then for the transient you'll need 300 watts. I believe that when folks talk about their music coming alive when they get a nice, big amp, what they are hearing is the proper reproduction of the transients.
4) Mass-market AVRs generally use switching power supplies, as opposed to the old-style power supplies that use a large (spell that heavy) transformer and giant filter capacitors. Why? Because the switching power supplies are much cheaper to build, are efficient, and weigh relatively little. That's how you get a 100 wpc X5 in a box you can lift w/o getting a hernia. The down side is that they don't have the 'head room' of the old style power supply. When they say 100 watts, they mean 100 watts, not 101 watts (and that's only if they're being honest; some manufacturers don't quite deliver all they promise.) The old-style power supplies have those big caps, siting there full of power, so when you get a big transient, the amp can deliver a peak of 300 to 500 watts, even if it can only supply 100 watts continuous. The result is good music and less likelihood of a blown tweeter.
5) Some people enjoy the buying and selling of equipment as much as listening to the music. Maybe even more. So there will be folks who constantly upgrade. Those folks are probably disproportionately represented on forms like this. The ones who get a rig they like, then kick back and revel in the music don't come here much, 'cause they're too busy enjoying their music. Note that I say this w/o making judgement on either group: if it brings you joy and doesn't hurt anyone, then go for it!
Cheers, Jim

cfrizz

Yes Joey, I did do some incremental upgrading! However the major difference is timing & knowledge or lack thereof.

My Rotel/Polk equipment was purchased February 6, 1990. My Denon was purchased October 25, 2001! HT didn't really exist back in 1990!

My Parasound was purchased 2004 or 2005 based on advice from this club that told me that I couldn't run LSI's from my Denon. IT WAS GREAT ADVICE! And it made the most significant improvement my system has ever had! Because until I made it, I didn't know what a difference so much power could make.

And yes Joey you are the upgraditis KING!!!! I just watch you in AWE!

Joey_V wrote:

Cathy,

While I dont completely understand why you say that we guys buy incrementally, from reading your report, you seemed to have done the same also. Perhaps not necessarily out of upgraditis, but you went from a 50wpc Rotel, to a 110w Denon, to the 205wpc Parasound. Seems incremental to me. Now, dont think I'm trying to start anything... nonono, I have too much respect for you to do that. But, I'm just pointing out that no one ever goes from zero to hero in one shot. Your Denon may have been a purchase out of necessity, but it was still an incremental upgrade, if not for the sound, but for the convenience of more inputs.

I will not disagree with your incremental mentality when it comes to me... I am the poster boy for upgraditis, sad as it may be.

Joey

cfrizz

Thank you HD, but NO THANK YOU!!! I despise politics!!!:D

Holydoc wrote:

Cathy for President!

Audio5oh

I appreciate the feedback so far. All I can say is, everyone here knows more than me. I have more questions to add to this long thread. I was reading the manual for the LSi9 and stumbled upon a somewhat confusing feature. What the heck is biamping/biwiring? I noticed the LSi9 has dual sets of binding posts which permit biamping or biwiring, but which option do I use to connect to an amplifier? I also read the manual for the Outlaw 7500 and according to the manual, you use audio interconnect cables that connect from the rear of your receiver (Denon) to the rear of the Outlaw amp. Instead of connecting the speaker wires to the receiver (as you normally would without a separate amp), you connect them to the rear of the Outlaw amp. Am I right or wrong?

PS. I don't even have the Outlaw amp yet, but I'll probably get one for sure.

danger boy

Audio5oh wrote:

I appreciate the feedback so far. All I can say is, everyone here knows more than me. I have more questions to add to this long thread. I was reading the manual for the LSi9 and stumbled upon a somewhat confusing feature. What the heck is biamping/biwiring? I noticed the LSi9 has dual sets of binding posts which permit biamping or biwiring, but which option do I use to connect to an amplifier? I also read the manual for the Outlaw 7500 and according to the manual, you use audio interconnect cables that connect from the rear of your receiver (Denon) to the rear of the Outlaw amp. Instead of connecting the speaker wires to the receiver (as you normally would without a separate amp), you connect them to the rear of the Outlaw amp. Am I right or wrong?

PS. I don't even have the Outlaw amp yet, but I'll probably get one for sure.

ummmm.. don't worry about bi amping or bi wiring at this point.. it's something you may want to look into later on down the road.. if you bi amp.. you'll be looking at purchasing more amps... bi wiring is just running two sets of wires.. one for the top speaker posts, and one for the bottom speaker posts.. connected to the same amp.. most people don't notice any difference in sound.. so it's hardly worth it.

cfrizz

BINGO! We have a winner!:D You got it! And +1 on what Danger Boy said!

Audio5oh wrote:

I appreciate the feedback so far. All I can say is, everyone here knows more than me. I have more questions to add to this long thread....I also read the manual for the Outlaw 7500 and according to the manual, you use audio interconnect cables that connect from the rear of your receiver (Denon) to the rear of the Outlaw amp. Instead of connecting the speaker wires to the receiver (as you normally would without a separate amp), you connect them to the rear of the Outlaw amp. Am I right or wrong?

PS. I don't even have the Outlaw amp yet, but I'll probably get one for sure.

Audio5oh

Guys, I have another issue now. According to Outlaw audio, they recommend that I use 14 or even 12 guage wire to power the LSi's. Well, if that's the case, I can't work on this project because my family room is already prewired with 16 guage speaker wire. What do you all think?

MikeC78

You'll be fine.

danger boy

Audio5oh wrote:

Guys, I have another issue now. According to Outlaw audio, they recommend that I use 14 or even 12 guage wire to power the LSi's. Well, if that's the case, I can't work on this project because my family room is already prewired with 16 guage speaker wire. What do you all think?

I wouldn't worry about it either.. since it's pre wired... just sit back and enjoy.

and remember it's just a "recommendation". not the law. I doubt the Outlaw Audio police will come to your home and track you down.

cfrizz

WAAAAAAAA!!! Another +1 for DB!!! You will be fine, & I'm starting to get excited for you!!!!:D

danger boy wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it either.. since it's pre wired... just sit back and enjoy.

and remember it's just a "recommendation". not the law. I doubt the Outlaw Audio police will come to your home and track you down.

Jim Shearer

Audio5oh wrote:

Guys, I have another issue now. According to Outlaw audio, they recommend that I use 14 or even 12 guage wire to power the LSi's. Well, if that's the case, I can't work on this project because my family room is already prewired with 16 guage speaker wire. What do you all think?

As I put on my fire-proof suit, let me say it: At audio frequencies, wire is wire. If you use sufficient gauge wire, taking into consideration the impedence of the speaker and the length of wire, then you'll be just fine. (If you want to talk about radio freq., then you do have to consider factors like the so-called 'skin effect'.) A while back some kind soul posted this reference here on CP: www.roger-russell.com There you will find, among other things, a discussion of speaker wire. Per Mr. Russell's chart, your 4 ohm LSis should be fine as long as the cables don't exceed 25 ft.

Cheers, Jim

Disclosure Statement: I am an analytical chemist w/ hobbyist interests in audio and astronomy. My grasp of physics is probably greater than that of the general public, but less than that of a Phd elecrical engineer. I have discussed this topic w/ professional techs in radio and TV, and their view of interconnects and speaker wire seems to agree w/ mine, which happens to agree w/ Mr. Russell's.

Audio5oh

Hey Jim,
I read that article by Mr. Russell and feel more at ease knowing I can continue with my project. Cathy, thanks for your advice as well. I appreciate everyone's input. I'll probably get started next month before Thanksgiving (hopefully), unless something comes up financially. My wife wants me to sell my current home theater setup, which consists of a Sony receiver, Polk tower speakers (R40), surrounds (FX30i) and a center channel. Unfortunately, this stuff is 6 1/2 years old and don't know how much it's worth today. Now you see why I want to upgrade?

Audio5oh

I need some advice again. Some friend of mine said that I might be overloading the electrical box to my house by using an amp in conjuction with the receiver to power all the polk speakers. He says its too much power. Is this true?

F1nut

Figure out the maximum wattage draw (should be listed on the back of each piece) of all the components on the circuit you are using. If it totals more than 1800 watts, you'll need another separate line.

BTW, that Roger-Russell article is BS, IMHO Maybe fine for low-fi, not for hi-fi.

danger boy

does it trip the circuit breaker ever? what all do you have plugged into it? can you seperate some components to other outlets on another circuit?

sickicw

my outlaw amp recomended a 20 amp circuit just for the amp. In my expericance, i never triped the circuit before i got dedicated lines, but i did have voltage drops that would limit dynamic range.