My new setup: Solution!

AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
edited July 2002 in 2 Channel Audio
If you read my other thread on this topic, you know the situation. I'm not too concerned with my HT since my parents already have a decent one in the living room. However, I do need a nice room for a 2-channel system. Once I have a room, I no longer have any excuse to put off upgrading. Bonus! My other need is to have an office for the business that I've started.

Below is my proposed solution: finishing the basement. The floorplan shows the middle section of the basement. The stairs from the first floor are shown coming down from the left, hitting a landing, and then making a 90-degree turn and opening into the basement. The outside walls are cinderblock and the floor is cement. Neither of these surfaces are acoustic-friendly, so I want to carpet the area and put up drywall or something. Ceiling is 8' but will need to be dropped to 7' to cover ducting and allow for lighting. The only walls that are currently in place are the outside walls and the walls around the staircase. There is presently no bathroom (or walls around it), just a sink. For acoustics, I was thinking of having some kind of acoustically-treat, double-fold door at the entrance to the office/storage room. The square object to the left of the staircase is a freezer. This can be moved. Here are the dimensions for the spaces in the floor plan:

office/stereo - 19' x 11
office/storage - 7' x 8'
? space - 8' x 8' (with a little loss in height due to the steps)

Does anyone have any suggestions for a better floor plan? Any room acoustic suggestions? Thanks!

Aaron
Post edited by Aaron on
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Comments

  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited July 2002
    I don't know man, how about getting a job and moving out of mommies house?

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    No can do, cocheese. Not enough money in the world. Starting a business generally isn't a profitable experience for awhile (3 years, I think they say). We'll see what happens; you never know.

    Aaron
  • mantismantis Posts: 16,034
    edited July 2002
    Not a bad size room,
    Bookshelf's are gonna need help with a sub.
    As far as the room goes....For the listening room I would build a sub floor.since you don't have high ceiling's in the basement,I would build the floor with 2x3 instead of 2x4.Use 3/4 inch Plywood.Leave it hollow or you can stuff it with cotton,not nessary.
    The walls you have to leave a vapor barrier.I would invest in Acoustic matting under the drywall.Use only 1 sheet of rock,not 2 this causes many room acoustics problems then helps.Use a 20 amp circuit to power the gear in that room.Deadicated line.
    Would not be a bad Idea to prewire for theater incase you do it in the future there.I wouldn't drywall the ceiling use drop ceiling and mat the ceiling.
    Good luck man you know you can E-mail me for help on the room........
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    Nice post, Dan! That's what I'm talking about! The bookshelf's in such a large room is a concern. I may have to rethink that. I was thinking of running a dedicated circuit to that room. What's the advantage to building a sub-floor? I'm guessing this would improve bass response. Does the acoustic matting help to tame wall resonance? It doesn't seem like it would help reflection/absorption properties. Pre-wiring for HT may not be a bad idea.

    Aaron
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited July 2002
    Sub floor, definatley. What the hell would us bookshelf users do without a good subfloor? I dont know DO YOU? No double rock? Acoustic what? .75 inch plywood? Last time I checked, plywood resonated at about 400 Hz, very critical midrange area.....no matter what is behind it....

    250+ sq ft, holy ****, better bi-wire some powered towers at the minimum......that's damn near an arena...

    Funny ****, how much does that work and materials cost, vs upgrading the gear, and ditching the McGuyver-Barrio-Biamp setup? Or at the minimum, just setting it up properly?

    Cheers,
    Laughing Russ

    I don't know if I could function without posts like this, HIGH entertainment value, I'm tellin' ya.....
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • OrangeToupeeOrangeToupee Posts: 488
    edited July 2002
  • nascarmannnascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited July 2002
    I don't know if I could function without posts like this, HIGH entertainment value, I'm tellin' ya.....

    You are one bad ****........one bad **** you are..:lol:
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited July 2002
    Aaron,
    A 11' X 19' room? NO! I have one and it sucks for sound. Actually mine is 11.5' x 22' with drywall, drapes, puffy couch and chair, carpet and a small hallway leading away from it at the back. If you put the speakers as you have them shown there will be a sweet spot about 10' in front of the speakers and it is a VERY small sweet spot. No matter how much bass you pump into the room it will only resonate into other rooms, not your listening room. It doesn't matter where you put your subs, it sucks. The only alternative is to spread you speakers further apart and put them on the long side of the wall but then the higher frequencies (above 5khz or so) resonate between the walls. It is a pretty cool effect but not really what you want for lifelike listening. Makes it sound like you are in a big hall. Great for Big Band style material. You would be better off to add a wall making the room 11 x 14 or so. Still not great but a lot more audio friendly. With enough damping material in the room you have a chance for some serious listening.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • mantismantis Posts: 16,034
    edited July 2002
    Leave it to Russman to comment like that.........you go !!!!!!!
    Aaron,
    building a sub floor is to Improve bass responce.You'll beable to feel the music more then if you build right on top of concrete.
    No worries about the ring of plywood as your gonna mat and rug the floor right???Forget hardwood flooring.....superbad for sound.
    The mating does help with keeping the sound in the room and not in room aside and above.Also makes sounds from the other room, kept out.Now you have a more quiet enviroment to listen and not disturb or be disturbed.Drywall is still reflective but that can be addressed after the room is finished and gear and speakers are placed.
    Laser pointer's help greatly but the old Mirror trick works just fine.This can be discussed later.......................

    O before I forget....Russman.....I do know,have done,felt difference,made a happier room,happier sounding and feeling system,.......now do you know.......I do all day long!!!!!!!!!!!:p
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    [how much does that work and materials cost, vs upgrading the gear, and ditching the McGuyver-Barrio-Biamp setup? Or at the minimum, just setting it up properly?
    What good would it do to upgrade my system if I don't have a room to put it in? Duh! No idea what it's going to cost yet. Hopefully the 'rents will pay for some of it.

    Aaron
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    I don't think the sub-floor is an option here. For one, it's my parents house, not mine. The room won't always be used for audio. I threw the idea out last night and it fell pretty flat. Heh. So how much of a loss in bass response am I going to take? Wouldn't there be some advantages to a concert floor since it would be absolutely rigid and resonance-free?

    Aaron
  • mantismantis Posts: 16,034
    edited July 2002
    very good point, without the room the system can't go......Russman will learn someday.....but not yeat!!!!!!
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    A 11' X 19' room? NO! I have one and it sucks for sound.
    I thought this would be a nice dimension for a room. It's certainly anything but square.
    You would be better off to add a wall making the room 11 x 14 or so.
    Is this because the length of the room is so long that you lose a lot of the rear-wall reflections? This was one of my concerns.
    No matter how much bass you pump into the room it will only resonate into other rooms, not your listening room. It doesn't matter where you put your subs, it sucks.
    Why is this? It seems there would be a lot of variables contributing to this.

    The only alternative is to spread you speakers further apart and put them on the long side of the wall but then the higher frequencies (above 5khz or so) resonate between the walls.
    Why would you do this? It seems counter-intuitive to me, though I could be wrong.

    Aaron
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,354
    edited July 2002
    maybe I missed something here but if you have a drop ceiling that is 7 feet then put in a subfloor + carpeting, aren't you talking about a room thats about 6.5 feet or so from floor to ceiling??

    I dunno, I'm kinda with Russ, all this cash to rehab the basement, your talking EASY 5 g's. More if you want it to look decent. All for a temporary setup (I mean, you gotta move sometime). Whereas, if you got your own place, (aside from the fact that I can't WAIT for Aaron to spring on a chick 'let's go back to my mom's place') if you use it for a home/office type affair, there are some tax advantages to it as well.

    Personally, I think that I'd be thinking of independence over 2ch, and I don't say that in a negative way.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    maybe I missed something here but if you have a drop ceiling that is 7 feet then put in a subfloor + carpeting, aren't you talking about a room thats about 6.5 feet or so from floor to ceiling??
    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Mantis did acknowleged that point by suggesting the use of 2x3's rather than 2x4's. So, you'd probably be talking a total loss of 4". I think the 1' loss from the drop ceiling is quite enough.
    I dunno, I'm kinda with Russ, all this cash to rehab the basement, your talking EASY 5 g's. More if you want it to look decent. All for a temporary setup (I mean, you gotta move sometime).
    It all depends who's paying, Troy. The thing is, my parents have talked about fixing up the basment for years. So it's not like they wouldn't benefit from it even after I'm gone.

    Aaron
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited July 2002
    Line the sucker with egg crate, bust out your Sanus stands and RT55's (which, by the way folks, show how far Polk has come in 10yrs), then go get your paper hat and start flippin' some quarter pounders....

    I can just see Aaron sitting is his parents basement, gettin' his listen on, sippin' on a juice-box.... Playdoh and Legos all over the floor.....

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,354
    edited July 2002
    I agree with the conveniece aspect for you and certainly I'm not bashing those that need to live at home temporarily.......What I am saying is how much use is it REALLY going to be to your folks after you leave the roost? How much finished space do 2 folks really need? My parents did a similar thing with their basement when we were teenagers, now the thing just sits vacant. It just seems like a big expenditure for your folks for something that.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,354
    edited July 2002
    Hey, I'll send Wendi's Betty Crocker Easy Bake oven and my snow cone machine so we can have snacks when we come over to play Lincoln Logs.


    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    While I appreciate your opinions and suggestions, I'd like to get this thread back on track. I'm still kicking the idea around at this point; nothing is set in stone. So, back on track:

    Does anyone have any suggestions for a better floor plan? Any room acoustic suggestions?

    Aaron
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited July 2002
    Ok, area rug on the floor, hang another rug or curtains on the wall behind your gear, do the same to the sides if you feel it needs it.

    Throw in some furniture, maybe some plants/lamps, done.

    -R
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,354
    edited July 2002
    I do like the sub floor idea though, you could build a trap door to hide the **** safe.....

    SERIOUSLY? The options are limitless depending on fundage. If it were me? Styrofoam the cinder block, panel over it.....cheap carpet and be done with it.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • mantismantis Posts: 16,034
    edited July 2002
    All you loose with concrete floor is bass energy.Sub floors allow you to feel the music.Drop ceiling's give you room for upgrade in the future.Drywall you can use but when you want to run some wire's, you got to cut the **** out of it.
    You treat the room after it's built.Before you need to rubber mat under the drywall.If your going to build the basement do it right.I wouldn't use metal studs, they ring .Wood studs are so much better.
    Russman....no advice or are your posts what you have to offer???
    TroyD......The sub floor would be a good porno hidding place, but for sound quality, well if you never heard it go then there's no use in me telling yeah.
    Aaron, I would also talk to a builder just for an opnion.They usually have real good Ideas.Audio video Installer's are also good to get an opnion from.Harry home owners can help as well but who knows where that will take you.Good luck dude.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,354
    edited July 2002
    I'm not disputing the benefits per se, but with the drop ceiling and the sub floor (even with 2x3's), when all is said and done your talking SERIOUS claustrophobia......fill the floor with cotton and you are inviting every varmint and bug in PA. You can deal with the concrete, most homes in the here in the Lowcountry are built on slabs, as mine is.

    Dan, I think what Russ is trying to get at, as am I, is that sinking major coin in something like this is kinda pointless. It's like renovating an apartment you don't own. It's really the desires of the person who's PAYING for the project that matter really. I mean, why spend an arm and a leg for a RT55 sony/yam biamp rig? Moreover if it were my son and I spent all that cash building him a sound room and he comes in sporting a pair of bookshelves that run over a grand with no grills, well, I might question priorities.

    Not to sound heartless but my folks were of the opinion that after the age of 18 and you weren't in school, you were on your own.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited July 2002
    I have read of some people doing a live/dead half room when the dimensions are bad. The half of the room the speakers are in is very dead acousticly and the other half (back half) is all hard (and live). This would be a consideration. the bad part of your layout is the 11' dimension. If you could find a way to open that up (even if it is unuseable space) it could be reasonable.
    For some of your questions. On the long wall? It just worked for me. I'm not sure why. On the short wall you can hear exactly what is coming from each speaker. No soundstage at all.
    Making the room 11 X 14? You can soften the walls which are 11' apart and the 14' should help the soundstage. Sitting in the middle of the room just doesn't seem to work with these dimensions.
    Bass? I'm not sure why (again, and I'm not going to try and make up a reason). I do know the bass ends up being excellent once I leave the room. (adjoining bathroom or bedroom). Who knows, maybe that is where you could put the sub and turn everything around. I have not tried that yet because of the weight of stuff and complexity.
    Can you open up the room so it is much wider overall? That might be the way to go. The asthetic rules for a room is generally that it should be about 2/3's as wide as it is long and I have read that is best for audio as well.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    Hmm, it seems that I made a typo on the room dimensions. The long wall is actually 24', not 19'. So, the main room would be 24' x 11'.

    Aaron
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    Here's what the current setup looks like. There are a lot of options as far as where to put up walls and such.

    Aaron
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
    This would be a more economical configuration and one probably more in line with my needs (I really don't need a 24' x 11' room). The stereo room dimensions now become 16.5' x 11', which is a perfect 2/3 room. I would probably have a double bi-fold door at the opening of the office. Whatcha think?

    Aaron
  • mantismantis Posts: 16,034
    edited July 2002
    TroyD,
    Some parents do feel that way........some don't.I know people that lived at home untill they where 28.Thats fine in my book.I didn't get on my own untill I was 23.I went to College, then Tech school.Your opnion is stated,If that's Russmans as well....noted.
    But Aaron just got out of school.A young guy that needs to build himself up.Hell look how much **** costs now.Id build a room in my parents basement if they let me stay home and save some cash.In the mean time you can enjoy your hobbie.Upgrade a few things and after thats done, start banking.Better then wasting money at the bar or on drugs or what have you.
    I think Aaron's parents would squash his plans in the basement if they wanted him to move on.He's just looking for advice,we all gave it, lets not turn this post into a pissing match as most posts do.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,354
    edited July 2002
    Right, I agree, I like Aaron's plan as is. All I'm saying is would try to keep it simple. In 5 years, the cheapie doors from Home Depot will be just as functional for Aaron's parents as the 2K acoustically dead ones, that's the point I'm trying to make.

    On a philosophical level, I think living at home for extended periods is more harmful than helpful. I know, I've seen it firsthand. IMO, if within a year you can't be self sufficient then you probably need to take a look at what you are doing for a living. IMO, the way it works is, you establish your independence, get on your own two feet and then collect your toys or what have you. Not the other way around. Having said that, what other people do or believe is fine by me. That's just how I approach life and respond accordingly.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • mantismantis Posts: 16,034
    edited July 2002
    That was a good post,
    respectfull totally.Getting on your own is a big thing.The step is harder then just doing it.One toy or so in the mean time can't hurt.Buying toys instead of planning your way out is another story.
    Life is a strange thing.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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