October: **** & **** History Month

brettw22

I don't have any kids.

What point were you trying to make?

hearingimpared

Not for nothing man, but I have and am currently. It is very difficult raising a kid especially in this time period where it seems like anything goes (please don't take that personally).

When I want to know about an Adcom amp, I call Adcom or talk to someone who has owned one. When I want advise on how to raise my child I either refer to my previous experience or I talk to people who have done it before.

I respect your opinion on homosexuality because you have first hand experience with it. I have some experience in that my siblings are ****. I wouldn't ask my middle brother who has no kids how to approach the subject of homosexuality with my younger son. I would however ask my little brother because he is both **** and father to my nephew and a damned good father at that.

I sense that you are feeling very set upon with this subject and are reacting emotionally. I won't believe that if you had a son and someone or some entity was trying to force something that is very contraversial onto your child you would just let it happen because it is the tolerant thing to do. You wouldn't! This is not as cut and dry as you are making it out to be. Yes **** have been discriminated against and yes things are being done about it. But you can't expect a father or a mother to stand by and let anyone force an issue on your child which in turn forces the issue on them. If I decide to talk to my youngest about homosexuality I will, ON MY TERMS IN MY HOUSE, THE WAY I WANT TO DO IT . . . PERIOD. You would feel the same way if you were raising a child.

hearingimpared

Peace everyone, I'm done with this thread.

wingnut4772

**** and **** issues should be handled by the parents. Not schools or anyone else for that matter. I would be so upset if someone else was trying to teach my kid about homosexuality. Leave that to me please. Besides, schools would probably teach some stereotypical garbage that would not be accurate anyway. One's sexual orientation should have no bearing or importance in any historical achievement. I do not remember any teacher mentioning that Columbus was straight, Leonardo was **** etc. It should not matter.

brettw22

I'm the oldest of 6 from a divorced family,and have been VERY involved in helping many of my friends raise their kids. I'm not inept at understanding your point with your child. I'm reacting more broadly to the subject where even if the age factor was changed and it was an older group of kids, that would not at all alter the judgemental attitude towards the idea. I'm not saying that I'm 100% for the idea of the ****/**** Month existing.......but I'm not 100% against it either.

I agree with you that something could exist that I might not agree with being taught to my child, but I can assure you that my reaction would be an actual discussion about the subject, not a flat mandate to never talk about/learn/hear about what I may or may not agree with.

I think you'd find that **** people in general are a much more accepting/understanding group of people because of what we've lived with for so long. I won't apologize for people feeling attacked at the mere discussion about the subject, and I won't let the outright judgemental tone stand when I see it.

Since I've joine the forum, I've received a few postive PM's from people about this subject, which I was very impressed to receive. I know many think of me as the angry **** or whatever on the forum, and I apologize if it comes across as anger.

You guys are upset or bothered with just the IDEA of the subject being discussed at school.........try living your whole life facing that attitude and tell me how it would affect your overall reaction to people's comments.

danger boy

tommyboy wrote:

Brett,

All most of us are trying to say, is just because you have been discriminated most of your life, doesn't mean you should have your own tv channel "for your kind" and a **** history month. All you are doing is making more discrimination by seperating you even more from the rest of us.
alright, im done with this thread, later

Excuse me! Ok then why do we have so many sports channels? I may not be a sports fan.. do you think i like paying for ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNHD, ESPNHD2, FOX Sports, etc... I didn't ask for them. they were shoved down my throat. To quote someone on here.

I didn't ask for a **** channel directed at me. I"ve lived this long without one. But, i have the choice to turn to that channel and view content that is of interest to me. Just like your sports channels.

Two **** channels out of over 500 out there in space, isn't many. I don't know why you would get so wound up over 2 channels you don't even watch.

If you're concerned that your child may view one of these channels and you are not comfortable with that.. that is your choice to block those channels. once again.. i hate to say this, because i'm NOT a parent.. But some parents need to be more involved in what their children are watching on TV, doing on the internet and are being taught in school. Ok, let the beat down begin. :eek:

ohskigod

fact is, tolerance and acceptance cant be forced. Some are tolerant of others cultures and orientations, and some are not.

fearing and feeling uncomfortable with people who are not like you (race, culture, sexual orientation or otherwise) is inherent human nature. Its our ability to choose how we deal with it that seperates us from the animals.

My parents went through great efforts (particularly my dad) to teach me how different people can be, racially, culturally. Sure he cracked race jokes, **** jokes, and some would call him insensitive for it, but he allways ultimatly judged a person by his character, despite the color of his skin or whatever.

its the ones that are uncomfortable with those not like them, therefore they attack them, or tie them to pick up truck bumpers and drag them along concrete that you have to worry about. Sensitivity training and awareness WILL NOT change these people.

F1nut

After reading thru all of this it's become obvious to me that there are some pretty effed up school systems in this country. I'd call this another perfect example of PC run amuck.

aaharvel

I think both sides have noble intentions, I am absolutely for pro-**** rights, but at the same time I just can't approve of discussing ****-rights (or anything that is based on sexual preference; **** or straight) to a nine-year old. Civil rights is different, it's not based on sex- but on the other hand, it is the ****-community that is having their civil rights compromised.. so what can you do? I think both sides are correct in this debate- which is why i'm sure that this thread will go on without a compromise and a concrete answer on what should/shouldn't be done will be approved by all. It sucks, but that's life.

brettw22

Not by me.......I've said all I think I need to say......

irishaz

Maybe it's just me, but don't **** and lesbians already have all the same rights and priviledges as everyone else? Brett, I don't know you from Adam, but I am (unfairly) assuming that you are a white male. If you are, then you are not, nor will you ever be a minority. You are a white male, nothing less, nothing more. If you were in a wheelchair, you might constitute a minorty, but sexual orientation doesn't make you one. Are Bi-sexuals a different, but equally protected minority. No. I don't believe that most people (with you included as you stated earlier) don't define themselves by their sexual orientation. They shouldn't. If you were an African American ****, you would be an minority. Not because you were a ****, but because you were an African American. This country needs to be very careful about what actually constitutes a minority.

Brett, you are pretty up front about the fact that you are **** (I knew the minute you took up for Oprah like she was the blessed mother), but if you hadn't mentioned it or started a thread like "Oh The Joys", how would anyone know? The fact is, nobody should know or care. You are a guy - nothing less, nothing more. No offense meant, but we are what we are. What you do when the lights go down is irrelavent. If folks didn't bring it up, there would be no basis for discrimination. And it certainly isn't a reason for demanding priviledges/rights that they already have.

If my kid's school tried to pull this stuff here, I wouldn't stand for it. **** and **** awareness month with a bunch of pre-teens? You've got to be kidding me.

mrbigbluelight

The "problem" I'd have with a "****/****" month at an elementary school is this: there is no way that it would be a discussion. Not a chance in hell.

During a "discussion", if a child offered the viewpoint that homosexuality is "wrong", the teacher would, of course, ask the child why they felt that way. This would be a proper way to encourage discussion.
If Billy responds with any Bible-based viewpoint, what happens next ?
"I'm sorry, Billy, we can't talk about that due to separation of church and state."

So, long story short, a "discussion" is impossible. What is left is a monologue by the teacher who must "toe the line", ie, present homosexuality in a positive light.

Teach the concept of tolerance and discrimination. That is fine, that is a good thing.

BTW, my own version of tolerance and discrimination that I've attempted to pass on to my kids is this (and no pun intended):

"If you suck, you suck. Doesn't matter if you're black, white, asian, Hispanic, ****, straight, fat, small, big, or tall. Period."

danger boy

irishaz wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but don't **** and lesbians already have all the same rights and priviledges as everyone else? Brett, I don't know you from Adam, but I am (unfairly) assuming that you are a white male. If you are, then you are not, nor will you ever be a minority. You are a white male, nothing less, nothing more. If you were in a wheelchair, you might constitute a minorty, but sexual orientation doesn't make you one. Are Bi-sexuals a different, but equally protected minority. No. I don't believe that most people (with you included as you stated earlier) don't define themselves by their sexual orientation. They shouldn't. If you were an African American ****, you would be an minority. Not because you were a ****, but because you were an African American. This country needs to be very careful about what actually constitutes a minority.

Brett, you are pretty up front about the fact that you are **** (I knew the minute you took up for Oprah like she was the blessed mother), but if you hadn't mentioned it or started a thread like "Oh The Joys", how would anyone know? The fact is, nobody should know or care. You are a guy - nothing less, nothing more. No offense meant, but we are what we are. What you do when the lights go down is irrelavent. If folks didn't bring it up, there would be no basis for discrimination. And it certainly isn't a reason for demanding priviledges/rights that they already have.

If my kid's school tried to pull this stuff here, I wouldn't stand for it. **** and **** awareness month with a bunch of pre-teens? You've got to be kidding me.

Where we are discriminated against when we try to go rent an apartment with our partners.. Two men renting an apartment with one bedroom? The apt manager knows right away they aren't just friends. so the apt manager comes up with some excuse.. Oh i have two more people interested in this apt, i'll get back to you Jack and Dan. Bam, they don't get the apartment. that's discrimination, right? It happens all the time.

This is just one example. there are others of course.

As a ptoential renter who could i turn to? He didn't call me any names.. he didn't beat me up because i was ****... so do i have any recourse? NO!. I"m out.. i've just been the victim of discrimination.. and i could be a white male as you said.

brettw22

irishaz wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but don't **** and lesbians already have all the same rights and priviledges as everyone else?

No....The primary issue is marriage; however with marriage, there are over 1,000 laws that pertain to rights that are granted to people that can/do marry. Among them are health insurance, hospital visitation, inheritance rights, family leave, pensions, retirement savings, taxes (estate & income), spousal privilege, and social security benefits. All of these are things that do not exist universally for **** couples. As for 'civil unions' I particularly like this quote: "We want marriage. That's the front of the bus. The Democrats want to give us civil unions. That's the back of the bus. The Republicans want to give us nothing. That's off the bus. And the far right wants us under the bus."

Religious Marriage and Civil Marriage are different. Your church has every right to refuse people whatever religious rights if their religion doesn't believe in a same sex marriage, but why should your religious belief affect my civil rights granted to me by a civil union/ceremony? The rights/benefits we're seeking have nothing to do with your religion, so your religious thought process shouldn't have any bearing in the matter.

irishaz wrote:

Brett, I don't know you from Adam, but I am (unfairly) assuming that you are a white male. If you are, then you are not, nor will you ever be a minority. You are a white male, nothing less, nothing more. If you were in a wheelchair, you might constitute a minorty, but sexual orientation doesn't make you one.

Quoted from Mirriam-Webster's website, a minority is defined as "a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment." Because someone doesn't walk around with a tag on their forehead identifying them as **** doesn't mean they aren't discriminated against based on that specification.

irishaz wrote:

Brett, you are pretty up front about the fact that you are **** (I knew the minute you took up for Oprah like she was the blessed mother)

Your smarmy comment aside, I defended the fact that you were acting as if she was some sort of evildoer because cars were given away on the show. You can read the thread again if you're not clear on my opinion, but my defending that had absolutely nothing to do with my being ****.......

irishaz wrote:

If folks didn't bring it up, there would be no basis for discrimination. And it certainly isn't a reason for demanding priviledges/rights that they already have.

If you truly believe this, you're naive. If the **** community didn't speak up, we'd have a constitutional ammendment by W telling us that we're less of a people......using the constitution to actually discriminate against a group of people.......what a guy.

jdhdiggs

Brett:

I did some research on the state of PA program and coursework. The test program is a one day seminar, a reading assignment and an essay-Not too big of a deal, but no other group but blacks (in some school systems) have something like this. The goal of the program is to eventually be a 10 day program discussing **** lifestyles, choices, safety, etc... There are NO programs like this for any other groups or lifestyles. I guess you could say sex ed in high school is a hetero version. Also, with 8, 9, 10 year olds, a 10 day program might as well be a scientologist indoctranation camp.

My biggest problems with this: The kids are too young and no other group is getting this special treatment.

If you think **** is a choice, then why not teach about Satanists, Goths, polygamy, etc...

If not a choice, how about fat people, dumb people, smart people, the race groups, serial killers, pedephiles, canibals, mentally ill, etc...

Brett, Would you support polygamists marriage? How about between a man and his daughter? How about a human and animal? According to your last paragraph, all of these should be Ok since not allowing them would be using the law to descriminate.

Willow

I believe this to be true as well. Great point Brett !

brettw22 wrote:

Factually speaking, kids ARE exposed to things that parents have no idea about, and by pretending at home that things don't exist, they're not doing the kids any favors.

What I want to know is when are they going to have an A/V month or a Cub Polk Month ! with parades and marching bands !

Willow

brettw22 wrote:

No....The primary issue is marriage; however with marriage, there are over 1,000 laws that pertain to rights that are granted to people that can/do marry. Among them are health insurance, hospital visitation, inheritance rights, family leave, pensions, retirement savings, taxes (estate & income), spousal privilege, and social security benefits. All of these are things that do not exist universally for **** couples. As for 'civil unions' I particularly like this quote: "We want marriage. That's the front of the bus. The Democrats want to give us civil unions. That's the back of the bus. .

This is why I like the laws in Canada, they are slowly in support of having sexual orientation equal, as I think it should be.

PolkThug

hearingimpared wrote:

I just don't want the school district of Phila. to dictate to my child what they think is correct concerning the subject of homosexuality and I object to the way they did it, it is REPREHENSIBLE.

So what does the school district "think is correct"? Has the school given you a copy of what they are actually going to teach for that month? You're not all mad because of assumptions are ya?

danger boy

jdhdiggs wrote:

Brett:
If you think **** is a choice, then why not teach about Satanists, Goths, polygamy, etc...

If not a choice, how about fat people, dumb people, smart people, the race groups, serial killers, pedephiles, canibals, mentally ill, etc...

Brett, Would you support polygamists marriage? How about between a man and his daughter? How about a human and animal? According to your last paragraph, all of these should be Ok since not allowing them would be using the law to descriminate.

Ummm. it's offensive to lump homosexuallity with pedophiles, canibalism, the mentally ill and polygamists.

I see the point you're trying to make, but being **** is not against the law like the rest of those are.

To some people being **** is a mental illness. IT's not, it was deemed in the early 70's as not being a mental illness and was removed from the books as such.

irishaz

Danger Boy - very good point about the apartment. That really sucks if that is going on in this day and age.

Brett - I wasn't trying to be smarmy. I was joking. I'm sorry if I came out that way. I was just remembering the earlier thread and thought it was funny. And - you are absolutely correct about "W". I think everything the man does is governed by his religous beliefs.

Brett, Would you support polygamists marriage? How about between a man and his daughter? How about a human and animal? According to your last paragraph, all of these should be Ok since not allowing them would be using the law to descriminate.

I'm not and expert on the subject and I know Brett could easily handle this point, but there is no paralell between **** marriage and polygamy, incest/pedophilia and bestiality. To compare these things is downright wrong. In a civil union/**** marriage, who is being hurt? Nobody. Two consenting adults are making a commitment to each other and want society to recognize it. Pedophilia, incest and bestiality are hideous things where someone (or something) is being hurt. Comparisons like this are one of the reasons discrimination/prejudice exists.

wingnut4772

danger boy wrote:

Ummm. it's offensive to lump homosexuallity with pedophiles, canibalism, mentally ill and polygamists.

I see the point you're trying to make, but being **** is not against the law like the rest of those are.

To some people being **** is a mental illness. IT's not, it was deemed in the early 70's as not being a mental illness and was removed from the books as such.

Yes. I found that to be pretty offensive also. I know that you probably did not intend to make it so but it is a common train of thought that really irks me.

TroyD

Agreed, that was crappy.

You know, I'm about as right wing on most subjects as you can get however, on this subject, I'm lining up pretty squarely with Brett. We can't help who we are attracted to. End of story.

If it's not your choice of lifestyle, fine, but live and let live. As far as educating children on ****/**** issues, so freakin' what? Kids are subject to a TON of things that we may/may not disagree upon. If people want to celebrate, fine. If the KKK can march in Sandusky, OH......

I think far too many people are equating education and active recruitment. Personally, I've known more than a few people that have led very tortured lives over thier sexuality, if something like this can save a few people that sort of thing, so be it. We ALL deserve to be happy and free.

Far as the religious issue, judge lest ye be judged. God doesn't differentiate between sins and we are all, according to scripture, sinners who fall short of the glory of God. So, our sins are between us and God, not for the rest of us to judge.

BDT

jdhdiggs

I love watching how tolerant all of you are being to opposing views. :rolleyes: The point was the slippery slope argument. You say people should be tolerant and educated about **** because that's how they are. Well, every group thata I listed had as much of a choice in their final outcome as ****.

See the thing you guys are missing is you say its insulting to **** to include polygamists (I'll use this one since it IS a valid comparison) to marriage, but you don't see that it is insulting to include **** marriage to a lot of straight people. You are being just as intolerant as the straight people are opposing **** marriage. Besides, your stance on polygamy is insulting to Muslims and Mormons. Why should you be able to descriminate against them because of their religious views?

**** marriage right now is illegal (in most states) as is polygamy. Why can't they be compared? Does polygamy demean the meaning of marriage in your eyes? Can't you see how **** marriage can have the same affect on straights couples? To me, if you you want to have some form of marriage with whatever and all partners are informed and of age, go for it. Just don't try to force everyone to recognize it as the same as other marriages. If your church will marry you, great! You still don't have the right to force people from another church that forbids **** marriage to recognize it as the same. Me, I don't care if someone marry's a man or a woman. It doesn't affect my marriage. To others it demeans them.

Why is it wrong to compare to it mentally ill? Aren't both states caused by parts of the brain or brain chemistry being outside the norm? Why shouldn't we teach tolerance for them as well?

How come if a straight person is offended by a **** their labelled as intolerant and overly sensitive, but if a **** is offended, well, its still the straight persons fault... Your responses are coming off as if you want special privelages over other groups and not the same rights. Sorry...

Back to the topic at hand, do you think it is right for 9yr olds to be taught this subject matter in public schools?

BDT:

You don't thing 10 days of saying how ok and wonderful it is to be **** being taught to a 9yo before the standard sex-ed classes isn't partially indoctrinating?

hearingimpared

Brett and everyone one else on this thread that is pressing the issue that when it comes to **** issues noone wants a big discussion. YOU ARE ALL FULL OF ****!!!

Where was the discusion with the school district and the parents BEFORE they published the calendar with the banner in October stating **** & **** HISTORY MONTH???? There was none! They FORCED their agenda on all us parents and blind sided us with it. Then they don't even have ANYTHING AT ALL in their ciriculum to even start a discussion OR a plan to teach anything about G&Ls or anything about this issue.

THIS THREAD WAS TO DISCUSS AND COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT THE SCHOOL DISTRICT DID. If you want to whine about your lives as **** men, black men, Jewish men, Christian men, orange color wearing men, purple loving men or whatever start a new thread and stop polluting this one with your own agendas. You are no better than the school district forcing an agenda on us WITHOUT DISCUSION OR PREPARATION.

TroyD

Is it ok for a 9yr old to know the truth about Santa Claus?

By 9, I'm afraid a kid is probably going to know something about it. I'd rather a kid have accurate and honest information than growing up with an untrue stereotype.

BDT

TroyD

hearingimpared wrote:

Brett and everyone one else on this thread that is pressing the issue that when it comes to **** issues noone wants a big discussion. YOU ARE ALL FULL OF ****!!!

Where was the discusion with the school district and the parents BEFORE they published the calendar with the banner in October stating **** & **** HISTORY MONTH???? There was none! They FORCED their agenda on all us parents and blind sided us with it. Then they don't even have ANYTHING AT ALL in their ciriculum to even start a discussion OR a plan to teach anything about G&Ls or anything about this issue.

THIS THREAD WAS TO DISCUSS AND COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT THE SCHOOL DISTRICT DID. If you want to whine about your lives as **** men, black men, Jewish men, Christian men, orange color wearing men, purple loving men or whatever start a new thread and stop polluting this one with your own agendas. You are no better than the school district forcing an agenda on us WITHOUT DISCUSION OR PREPARATION.

And you are not forcing an agenda??

The **** community is probably the only community that it's still ok to ridicule in public and are subjected to the most overt discrimination. They DO get the short end of the stick and as such, I think have the right to ****.

BDT

wingnut4772

jdhdiggs wrote:

I love watching how tolerant all of you are being to opposing views. :rolleyes: The point was the slippery slope argument. You say people should be tolerant and educated about **** because that's how they are. Well, every group thata I listed had as much of a choice in their final outcome as ****.

See the thing you guys are missing is you say its insulting to **** to include polygamists to marriage, but you don't see that it is insulting to include **** marriage to a lot of straight people. You are being just as intolerant as the straight people are opposing **** marriage. Besides, your stance on polygamy is insulting to Muslims and Mormons. Why should you be able to descriminate against them because of their religious views?

**** marriage right now is illegal (in most states) as is polygamy. Why can't they be compared? Does polygamy demean the meaning of marriage in your eyes? Can't you see how **** marriage can have the same affect on straights couples? To me, if you you want to have some form of marriage with whatever and all partners are informed and of age, go for it. Just don't try to force everyone to recognize it as the same as other marriages. If your church will marry you, great! You still don't have the right to force people from another church that forbids **** marriage to recognize it as the same.

Why is it wrong to compare to it mentally ill? Aren't both states caused by parts of the brain or brain chemistry being outside the norm? Why shouldn't we teach tolerance for them as well?

How come if a straight person is offended by a **** their labelled as intolerant and overly sensitive, but if a **** is offended, well, its still the straight persons fault... Your responses are coming off as if you want special privelages over other groups and not the same rights. Sorry...

Back to the topic at hand, do you think it is right for 9yr olds to be taught this subject matter in public schools?

Ok. You got me. I am a mentally ill, child molesting polygamist serial killer.

jdhdiggs

Just because your one doesn't mean you're all of them. Get over yourself and quit being childish.

I'm just trying to show you that the **** community is doing the same thing the straight community is doing to ****. Your segregating yourself from other lifestyle minorities and demanding different rights.

PhantomOG

brettw22 wrote:

**** people are not looking for special rights or priveledges. They are looking for the SAME rights and priveledges as you have. SAME.

You (anyone) might feel talking about the subject is shoving it in your face......I'd call that an overreaction, but also know that it is a DAILY issue that **** people are discriminated against, so if you can't handle a few days a month, tough cookies IMO. Also, I'm hoping that a few days chat about a subject isn't enough to eliminate your values that you told your kid to believe.

the same rights and privledges? Up until somewhat recently, schools were an academic setting where academic learning took place. Sure, there were rules, much like laws for adults, to keep things in order and to make sure no on was impeding the learning of others. Morals, beliefs, "social intelligence", was something learned at home, from parents and the surrounding community.

Please, please, please just answer me this one question. You say you only want the same rights and privledges, and will stand up against (and rightly so) those who want to take your rights with respect to marriage, but how can you not see your hypocrisy when you are completely ok with the school district taking away rights from parents who want to handle this issue at home, under their direct supervision, when they think their children are ready??

You can take this issue and replace it with any other number of subjects. This isn't about homosexuality. This is about the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit. You have no problem taking this right from others, all the while complaining about your own persecution and loss of rights. Do you really not see this???

hearingimpared

TroyD wrote:

And you are not forcing an agenda??

The **** community is probably the only community that it's still ok to ridicule in public and are subjected to the most overt discrimination. They DO get the short end of the stick and as such, I think have the right to ****.

BDT

That is **** Troy. Who theses days other than a comedian get away with ridiculing **** in public? They have gotten the short end of the stick over the years but that is changing, maybe it should change over night like it did with Black People WHICH IT DIDN'T but it changed and still is evolving. Anyway **** all you want, that still brings us back to the issue this thread was started on. . .