Real AVR Watts

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Comments

  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited August 2006
    PolkThug wrote:
    "S&V: Our standard all-channels-driven power measurement could not be taken because, Sony tells us, the receiver was not designed to deliver full power to all channels simultaneously."

    ..even though Sony advertised "110x7" :D

    well damn that proves without a doubt that Sound & Vision is nothing but dirty laundry.

    They could do the measurement if they wanted to. What a bunch of hogwash.

    BS like that is what caused me to cancel my subscription 2years ago.
    H/K Signature 2.1+235
    Jungson MagicBoat II
    Revel Performa M-20
    Velodyne cht-10 sub
    Rega P1 Turntable

    "People working at Polk Audio must sit around the office and just laugh their balls off reading many of these comments." -Lush
  • John K.
    John K. Posts: 822
    edited August 2006
    Comments on some of the points raised. The table extracted from S&V, besides being outdated, shouldn't be used to make comparisons. In one column the manufacturer's power rating is given and in another column a test result with five channels driven is shown. The implication is that the columns should be compared and if the five channel number is lower than the rating, that the rating hasn't been met. This isn't the case, since the manufacturer's rating in the majority of cases is with the FTC requirement of two channels driven. When S&V and other testers have published the results for the actual rating(two channels in most cases), the rating has been met or exceeded; the law hasn't been violated.

    It's somewhat ironic that while many areas of audio contain bizarre claims, made without supporting evidence, that some are willing to accept or at least take seriously, the one area where there are fairly specific federal regulations, i.e amplifier power ratings, are often viewed with distrust. The regulations here are seldom read and studied, and of course should be to get an understanding of the subject. As shown, after a warmup period the rating as to power, distortion, and frequency range has to be taken when operating for at least five minutes continuously at the full rated power. The number of driven channels isn't specifically given in the regs, but the FTC has interpreted the requirement as at least two. Manufacturers are free to use a rating with more than two channels driven for five minutes(although such doesn't occur in home audio), applying the same rating process.

    Some other points are: the S&V "clipping" measurement is at an arbitrary 0.3% THD, which is inaudible, at least on music(threshhold of at least 1%), and is far below the several percent distortion reading that would occur before actual clipping; the "fidelity firewall" rating is strange, since although it purports to be the level above which the distortion is audible, it appears to be shown at about 0.05%, which is again even farther below audibility; "dynamic power" is a specific IHF measurement taken with tone bursts 20 milliseconds long(a rough approximation of the length of a peak attack of a musical instrument)repeated at 500 millisecond intervals.
  • Toxis
    Toxis Posts: 5,116
    edited August 2006
    Yes, but that's "dynamic power" at 10 % THD, a level that just about ANYONE is cringing at.
    Not really. 90% of the HTiB's out there are all rated at 10% THD. Most people don't even care about sound quality anymore. I still get surprised everyday by the people who listen to a tiny plastic speaker that sounds as hollow as a pirate's leg and honestly think it sounds good. It's honestly as if people are just happy they hear sound and are impressed with that enough.
    Never kick a fresh **** on a hot day.

    Home Setup: Sony VPL-VW85 Projo, 92" Stewart Firehawk, Pioneer Elite SC-65, PS3, RTi12 fronts, CSi5, FXi6 rears, RTi6 surround backs, RTi4 height, MFW-15 Subwoofer.

    Car Setup: OEM Radio, RF 360.2v2, Polk SR6500 quad amped off 4 Xtant 1.1 100w mono amps, Xtant 6.1 to run an eD 13av.2, all Stinger wiring and Raammat deadener.
  • LuSh
    LuSh Posts: 887
    edited August 2006
    bknauss - It's the BB's and CC"s of the world that make request's over the table as to what products should be spec'd and price points. Some products are designed soley on the request of big box store spec sheets, "make this product at 6 x 100 watt's @ a $199-$250 price point and we'll buy **** amount." This is how business is done. There is no passion with BB and therefore spec's are usually inflated. The spec's are accurate but no mention of how these spec's are actually measured. The electronic company's while hate dealing with Satan's little helper are intrigued by the large volume numbers that help the bottom line at the end of the year.
  • Holydoc
    Holydoc Posts: 1,048
    edited August 2006
    John K. wrote:
    It's somewhat ironic that while many areas of audio contain bizarre claims, made without supporting evidence, that some are willing to accept or at least take seriously, the one area where there are fairly specific federal regulations, i.e amplifier power ratings, are often viewed with distrust.

    It is not ironic if the audio companies do not report the same information in the same way. As you stated, it is interpreted by the FTC that the regulations mean 2 channels driven. However it is interpreted by the audio companies in many different ways. Just look around at how everyone reports different specs but label them in such a way that the consumer cannot tell what he is looking at.

    Denon rates 110wx7 channels. Is this 2 channels tested or all 7 at the same time? Who knows?

    Onkyo breaks it out further and say front =110w, center = 110w, rear =110w. Does this mean it can drive all of them at this wattage or just the center?

    Outlaw rates their amp at 200wx7 channels with all channels driven.

    All of these specs are placed under the same heading, Power Output. If this spec is regulated then we need to fire the regulators.
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
    __________________________________________
    Panasonic -50PX600U 50" Plasma
    Onkyo -TX-NR901 Receiver
    Oppo -Oppo 980HD Universal DVD Player
    Outlaw -770 (7x200watt) Amplifier
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    SVS - PB-12/Plus (Subwoofer)
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    Logitech Harmony 880 - Remote
  • John K.
    John K. Posts: 822
    edited August 2006
    Doc, "Who knows?". Anyone who has the intellectual curiosity and time to study the subject should know. The basic requirement is to test and rate with two channels driven. Unless a specific number driven or statement such as "all channels" (e.g. the Outlaw example)is given on the power rating, then the rating is the basic two channel requirement(e.g. the Denon and Onkyo examples)
  • aba4430
    aba4430 Posts: 80
    edited August 2006
    I posted this article before, but the link does not work. However, here it is. Regards, Ashok
  • ronnie
    ronnie Posts: 150
    edited August 2006
    LuSh wrote:
    bknauss - It's the BB's and CC"s of the world that make request's over the table as to what products should be spec'd and price points. Some products are designed soley on the request of big box store spec sheets, "make this product at 6 x 100 watt's @ a $199-$250 price point and we'll buy **** amount." This is how business is done. There is no passion with BB and therefore spec's are usually inflated. The spec's are accurate but no mention of how these spec's are actually measured. The electronic company's while hate dealing with Satan's little helper are intrigued by the large volume numbers that help the bottom line at the end of the year.

    SAD, but so TRUE:mad:
    Yamaha RX-V2600
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    Polk RTi12 mains
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    Acoustic Research 12in 200 watt sub(8 years old and still hits hard:D)
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    blue jeans cables
    AR interconnects
  • Holydoc
    Holydoc Posts: 1,048
    edited August 2006
    aba4430 wrote:
    I posted this article before, but the link does not work. However, here it is. Regards, Ashok

    Thanks Ashok. Nice article written in a way that even I can understand.

    :)
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
    __________________________________________
    Panasonic -50PX600U 50" Plasma
    Onkyo -TX-NR901 Receiver
    Oppo -Oppo 980HD Universal DVD Player
    Outlaw -770 (7x200watt) Amplifier
    PolkAudio - RTi12 (Left and Right)
    PolkAudio - CSi5 (Center)
    PolkAudio - FXi3 (Back and Surround)
    SVS - PB-12/Plus (Subwoofer)
    Bluejean Cables - Interconnects
    Logitech Harmony 880 - Remote
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2006
    aba4430 wrote:
    I posted this article before, but the link does not work. However, here it is. Regards, Ashok

    welcome back to the forum ashok, looks like you took a two year break. :)
  • aba4430
    aba4430 Posts: 80
    edited August 2006
    PolkThug,
    Yes, it has been two jam packed years for me. Moved from GA to VA etc. etc. I still have the RM4600 I obtained from you. I need to set it up and finally start using it. Have a basement now, so the second system will go there. It still appears brand new.

    To stay on this subject, the Pioneer VSX-49TX did exceptional in the S&V test (that is the test in the performance table posted in the first message). They tested it on their 6.1 set-up, hence the measure across 6 channels. They ranted and raved about the performance. The actual test can be found via the link:

    http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=279&page_number=1

    I am obviously partial to the Pioneer as my 47TX is a close cousin of the 49!
    Regards,
    Ashok
  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited August 2006
    LuSh wrote:
    bknauss - It's the BB's and CC"s of the world that make request's over the table as to what products should be spec'd and price points. Some products are designed soley on the request of big box store spec sheets, "make this product at 6 x 100 watt's @ a $199-$250 price point and we'll buy **** amount." This is how business is done. There is no passion with BB and therefore spec's are usually inflated. The spec's are accurate but no mention of how these spec's are actually measured. The electronic company's while hate dealing with Satan's little helper are intrigued by the large volume numbers that help the bottom line at the end of the year.

    I see your point, and to a certain extent its true... but I haven't seen any of the companies who are only carried by Magnolia change their ratings. Manufacturers do have a choice. Some bow to pressure and others stick with what is the truth. Sony is obviously the former.
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk