Real AVR Watts

PolkThug
PolkThug Posts: 7,532
edited August 2006 in Electronics
Manufacturer claims vs. Test results

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm
Never Forget
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  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited August 2006
    Out of that entire group, only B&K and Harman Kardon met their advertised specs. Not only that, they exceeded their advertised specs.

    Yup, I stand by my mid-fi gear. :cool:
    H/K Signature 2.1+235
    Jungson MagicBoat II
    Revel Performa M-20
    Velodyne cht-10 sub
    Rega P1 Turntable

    "People working at Polk Audio must sit around the office and just laugh their balls off reading many of these comments." -Lush
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited August 2006
    Rotel also exceeded their advertised specs.
    Interesting chart.
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited August 2006
    Ahh, I'm glad someone brought this up again. I had lost my bookmark for that site.
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
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  • univera
    univera Posts: 848
    edited August 2006
    aaharvel wrote:
    Out of that entire group, only B&K and Harman Kardon met their advertised specs. Not only that, they exceeded their advertised specs.

    Yup, I stand by my mid-fi gear. :cool:

    MID-FI RULES!!!!Or is it really, entry level, Hi-Fi gear:) :):) !?!?!?!?
    UNIVERA
    Historic Charleston SC

    2 Channel:
    SDA-SRS's RDO tweets
    Biamped Anthem 2 SE's w/1970's NOS Siemens CCA's
    Anthem Pre 2L w/E.harmonix platinum matched 6H23's
    CDP- NAD C 542


    HT setup:
    AVR: NAD T 773
    Rears: Polk LC80i
    DVD: Toshiba 3109 dual tray
    Subs: Velodyne and M&K
    T.V.: Sony KDL-52XBR4 w/Vans Evers Clean Line Jr.
    Conditioner: Panamax M5100EX

    Master Bedroom Sony 40KDL-XBR3

    "I love it when a plan comes together." Hannibal Smith, The A-Team
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  • MattN03
    MattN03 Posts: 558
    edited August 2006
    Cool find! Looks like my H/K & Rotel pieces are likely performing as specs show. :)
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited August 2006
    Gotta love sony. it says 100 watts, it delivers 30.

    Low end of Onkyo from a few years back did pretty well, too. IIRC, they used the same power supply & some chasis parts from the top end.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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  • Mike682
    Mike682 Posts: 2,074
    edited August 2006
    I remember this chart but couldn't find the link. thanks.

    Click on this link for the homepage:
    http://www.geocities.com/p_iturra/index.html
    Receiver: harmankardon AVR235
    Mains: polk R30
    Center: polk CSi3
    Rear Surrounds: polk R20
    Subwoofer: polk PSW404
    DVD: Panasonic DVD-S29
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2006
    doh! We overloaded it!

    "The GeoCities web site you were trying to view has temporarily exceeded its data transfer limit. Please try again later. "
    Never Forget
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  • Mike682
    Mike682 Posts: 2,074
    edited August 2006
    He did mention on his site that he has a bandwidth limit and to try again later if site is down..

    What do they give him, 10 hits an hour?:D
    Receiver: harmankardon AVR235
    Mains: polk R30
    Center: polk CSi3
    Rear Surrounds: polk R20
    Subwoofer: polk PSW404
    DVD: Panasonic DVD-S29
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  • bobman1235
    bobman1235 Posts: 10,822
    edited August 2006
    Google Cache of the site, since it's on Geocities and therefore will always be down.
    If you will it, dude, it is no dream.
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  • sickicw
    sickicw Posts: 456
    edited August 2006
    I noticed that the THD does not match for the advertised specs and the tested specs. If you drove the receiver harder (until the THD equaled that of the advertised specs) you would get more power out of the amp. Therefore, these tests really aren't very accurate.

    When i bought my rockford fosgate amp, rockford sent me a test sheet that showed it met the advertised output wattage. If also showed that if you could deal with a little more THD, then you could squeeze another 200 watts out of the 800 watt amp.
    Speakers: LSi9 x 2, LSic, LSiFX x 2, Velodyne HGS-15
    Amps & Power: Rockford Fosgate T8004 x 3, Cascade Audio APS-55 power supplies x 5, and 1 farad capacitor.
    Electronics: Denon 3806, Toshiba HD-A1, & Sony KDL46XBR2
    Accessories: Anti-IC interconnects, 8 Mondo Traps from Realtraps, and Salamander furniture.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited August 2006
    Yeah, I've seen this before....and remember mark (doro) having several comments about the validity of this test.
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited August 2006
    sickicw wrote:
    I noticed that the THD does not match for the advertised specs and the tested specs. If you drove the receiver harder (until the THD equaled that of the advertised specs) you would get more power out of the amp. Therefore, these tests really aren't very accurate.

    When i bought my rockford fosgate amp, rockford sent me a test sheet that showed it met the advertised output wattage. If also showed that if you could deal with a little more THD, then you could squeeze another 200 watts out of the 800 watt amp.

    Driven to clipping is driven to clipping- It has nothing to do with THD. The test would be valid under those claims as all turning up the volume would do is make it clip worse. Your rockford fosgate had not entered clipping yet, otherwise they would have never claimed what they did.

    The test may be invalid, but this wouldn't be the reason why.
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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  • sickicw
    sickicw Posts: 456
    edited August 2006
    I was just glancing at the report and didnt notice they were driven to clipping. Anyway, if you notice, they are driving 5 channels for this test. If they would take the time to look up the specs from the maker of the receiver, they would see that some of the receiver specs are only for 2 channels. If they tested with only two channels when appropriate, the amp would not clip so easily and they would drive the THD up a bit and also get more power output. Also, the impedance of the speaker will also effect the results.

    I thought it was common knowledge to look at the spec sheet to see what the amp can really do and not the marketing info.
    Speakers: LSi9 x 2, LSic, LSiFX x 2, Velodyne HGS-15
    Amps & Power: Rockford Fosgate T8004 x 3, Cascade Audio APS-55 power supplies x 5, and 1 farad capacitor.
    Electronics: Denon 3806, Toshiba HD-A1, & Sony KDL46XBR2
    Accessories: Anti-IC interconnects, 8 Mondo Traps from Realtraps, and Salamander furniture.
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  • zombie boy 2000
    zombie boy 2000 Posts: 6,641
    edited August 2006
    The HK's have different wattage ratings for stereo mode vs. 5 channels -- and they still passed the test.
    I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2006
    sickicw wrote:
    I thought it was common knowledge to look at the spec sheet to see what the amp can really do and not the marketing info.

    Home audio AVR's from big chain stores don't come with spec sheets.
    Never Forget
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  • sickicw
    sickicw Posts: 456
    edited August 2006
    zombie boy 2000 wrote:
    The HK's have different wattage ratings for stereo mode vs. 5 channels -- and they still passed the test.

    I guess my point is that the test doesn't really carry any weight unless the receiver is rated for 5 channels. If the manufacturer doesn’t rate the receiver for 5 channels, then they aren’t lying to you when someone comes up with different results using 5 channels.

    My onkyo receiver is only rated for two channels and I knew that before I bought it. That is why I only use its internal amp for a pair of rear speakers.
    zombie boy 2000 wrote:
    Home audio AVR's from big chain stores don't come with spec sheets.

    I think most manufactures print the spec sheet on the last page of the manual. I could be wrong though. I usually download the users manual before I buy anything just to check out the specs.
    Speakers: LSi9 x 2, LSic, LSiFX x 2, Velodyne HGS-15
    Amps & Power: Rockford Fosgate T8004 x 3, Cascade Audio APS-55 power supplies x 5, and 1 farad capacitor.
    Electronics: Denon 3806, Toshiba HD-A1, & Sony KDL46XBR2
    Accessories: Anti-IC interconnects, 8 Mondo Traps from Realtraps, and Salamander furniture.
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  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited August 2006
    Well, when they advertise it as "600W, 120W x 5" I take that as misleading. I realize they are stating that it can put out 120W at any of the 5 channels, but the 600W is purely bogus. Watch the best buy circulars and see how misleading the adds are "1,200 W surround system...."
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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  • sickicw
    sickicw Posts: 456
    edited August 2006
    yup, i agree. The marketing is very very misleading. Not quite sure how they are able to do this, but they do.
    Speakers: LSi9 x 2, LSic, LSiFX x 2, Velodyne HGS-15
    Amps & Power: Rockford Fosgate T8004 x 3, Cascade Audio APS-55 power supplies x 5, and 1 farad capacitor.
    Electronics: Denon 3806, Toshiba HD-A1, & Sony KDL46XBR2
    Accessories: Anti-IC interconnects, 8 Mondo Traps from Realtraps, and Salamander furniture.
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited August 2006
    If you're in to this sort of thing, check out the reviews at http://www.homecinemachoice.com

    They review alot more receivers than on this list, and do a full review, including what they call a fidelity Firewall test and some other measuremensts in the 'Lab Tests' sectiion on each review. HCC is also nice becasue you get a full review along with the test results - if you're in to that sort of thing.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited August 2006
    I love seeing that POS chart from the dark ages...brings back such fond memories. When you folks start actually hearing the distortion levels listed by some of the underachiervers, let me know.

    I also like the Fidelity Firewall method as it's by far, more accurate....and sensible.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2006
    How does one interpret their "Lab Report" for the watt measurements? They just have checkmarks for excellent, good, average and poor. On the Denon 3806 they have 'good' checked for everything. So, do we assume it got most of the watts, or is 'good' all of the claimed watts, and 'excellent' is more than claimed? Still seems really subjective.
    Never Forget
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited August 2006
    Blah... bad list of numbers that don't mean much. Who cares what distortion is at 1W? If you can hear .1% distortion, please jump into the consumer electronics industry... cause that's simply amazing. Most humans start hearing distortion at 1%, and I believe that's for a sine wave and not music.

    What else should I complain about...
    1. If the manu. doesn't claim multichannel power, why are they being docked if the power measures less than their assumed 2 channel power?
    2. What does output at clipping mean? Did someone adjust the output of a sine wave until it looked like it was clipping? You'd be surprised how close 1% and 5% distortion look on an oscilloscope. At least have a standard number for clipping that is measured. I see that it was referenced at .3% (nice random number!!!) for one issue, but what about the other measurements?
    3. Just way too many variables to accurately compare one AVR to another. Although there are some obviously bad receivers on there.......
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited August 2006
    That's exactly why I like the FF approach, as it's power until audible distortion....plain and simple.

    I agree, as their are alot of dogs in this industry, but the chart is borderline useless.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • Holydoc
    Holydoc Posts: 1,048
    edited August 2006
    dorokusai wrote:
    That's exactly why I like the FF approach, as it's power until audible distortion....plain and simple.

    I agree, as their are alot of dogs in this industry, but the chart is borderline useless.

    FF approach?
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
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  • Toxis
    Toxis Posts: 5,116
    edited August 2006
    hahaha I love how the non-ES sony was claiming 100w and actually put out 31w. That's so BA!!
    Never kick a fresh **** on a hot day.

    Home Setup: Sony VPL-VW85 Projo, 92" Stewart Firehawk, Pioneer Elite SC-65, PS3, RTi12 fronts, CSi5, FXi6 rears, RTi6 surround backs, RTi4 height, MFW-15 Subwoofer.

    Car Setup: OEM Radio, RF 360.2v2, Polk SR6500 quad amped off 4 Xtant 1.1 100w mono amps, Xtant 6.1 to run an eD 13av.2, all Stinger wiring and Raammat deadener.
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2006
    Toxis wrote:
    hahaha I love how the non-ES sony was claiming 100w and actually put out 31w. That's so BA!!

    Then on the ES model:

    "S&V: Our standard all-channels-driven power measurement could not be taken because, Sony tells us, the receiver was not designed to deliver full power to all channels simultaneously."

    ..even though Sony advertised "110x7" :D
    Never Forget
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  • mrbigbluelight
    mrbigbluelight Posts: 9,897
    edited August 2006
    A number of products listed were from 1999, 2000, 2001 ....... a little dated, I's say.

    Specifications listed on Onkyo's site for their AVRs are for all-channels driven for the AVRs listed capabilty, 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1.

    Best Buy & CC should be ashamed of themselves for their definitely misleading ads: "1100 Watts into 7 Channels !!!". Yes, but that's "dynamic power" at 10 % THD, a level that just about ANYONE is cringing at.
    And what's their definition of "dynamic power" ? Able to be sustained for 2 micro- or nano- seconds ?

    Supposedly all listed ratings are according to "FTC standard x.x". Don't necessarily think of "audophile" when I think of the FTC, but is the FTC standard that loose ?
    Sal Palooza
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  • bknauss
    bknauss Posts: 1,441
    edited August 2006
    mrbigbluelight wrote:
    A number of products listed were from 1999, 2000, 2001 ....... a little dated, I's say.

    Specifications listed on Onkyo's site for their AVRs are for all-channels driven for the AVRs listed capabilty, 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1.

    Best Buy & CC should be ashamed of themselves for their definitely misleading ads: "1100 Watts into 7 Channels !!!". Yes, but that's "dynamic power" at 10 % THD, a level that just about ANYONE is cringing at.
    And what's their definition of "dynamic power" ? Able to be sustained for 2 micro- or nano- seconds ?

    Supposedly all listed ratings are according to "FTC standard x.x". Don't necessarily think of "audophile" when I think of the FTC, but is the FTC standard that loose ?

    Its not BB or CC's fault. They just reprint what the manu. sends them. Blame the crappy electronics makers for their inflated numbers.

    As for the FTC... its very loose in its terms and there are LOTS of loopholes.
    Brian Knauss
    ex-Electrical Engineer for Polk
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  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,728
    edited August 2006
    PolkThug wrote:
    How does one interpret their "Lab Report" for the watt measurements? They just have checkmarks for excellent, good, average and poor. On the Denon 3806 they have 'good' checked for everything. So, do we assume it got most of the watts, or is 'good' all of the claimed watts, and 'excellent' is more than claimed? Still seems really subjective.
    No, I wasn't referring to the checkmarks you're seeing. there's a section on each review where they do the Fidelity Firewall test, it gives actual numbers....

    I'd agree that both are subjective, but find the FF test to be alot more useful.
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