Reeeee-haaaaab!!!

buttdad

PhantomOG wrote:

call it a "disease" all you want, but I'll be pretty damn pissed the first time I hear about a drunk driver killing someone and getting off because of their "disease".
:mad:

Were you pissed when OJ went golfing in Florida ?

Trying to explain the dynamics of an affliction in no way advocates it as an excuse for not sacking up and getting help or accepting responsibility for yourself. If you kill someone when your drivng drunk, go to jail for the rest of your life, period.
Realize you have a problem and try to quit, thats what it's about.
It is an understanding of how someone got to where they are so you can help them back is what we are talking about.
Just saying look dude I know you are shaking with the sweats, puking sick all day but just say no because you are weak, isn't gonna help.

Perhaps that is the difference is, some are looking how to help others and understand, not judge how they got there.

swerve

Mel Gibson is my hero... and has been for a really long time but I have recently began to dislike the man.

ohskigod

swerve wrote:

Mel Gibson is my hero... and has been for a really long time but I have recently began to dislike the man.

hey, he's a flawed man just like everyone else. as of late, it seems as if he flipped his bird. hasnt been all there since making the passion (or during the making)

the anti semite thing just doesnt make sense, but the drunk driving is the **** that has to stop. just becasue he's loaded and famous doesnt give him the privelage to put other lives in so much peril

MacLeod

Wouldnt it be horrible if we all were categorized by what we did and said when we were sh*tfaced?

F1nut

If you have a problem with alcohol or anything else stay away from it. It's that simple, period.

Like most of life, it's not black and white. Lots and lots of gray. Nobody asks to be an addict. Not one person that has an addiction problem ever thought for one second they were going to become addicted. It's a very sneaky disease and by the time one realizes they have a problem, it's too late as they have already crossed the line. The lucky ones are able to combat the disease, the unfortunate ones suffer active addiction until they die. There is nothing simple about any form of addiction.

Find an AA meeting or the like, ask the folks there about your theory. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to educate you.

Ron-P

Say what you will but in my eyes it is black and white. Not being able to say no after you've gone too far the first time (and everyone realizes it) is nothing more then weakness. Yet people will use the word disease as a way to blame something else for their weakness instead of accepting responsiblilty for it. It's just as easy to not go out to buy the alcohol or go to the bar as it is to do so. Simple as that.

It doesn't sneak up on you, that's just another excuse.

MrNightly

Ron-P wrote:

Say what you will but in my eyes it is black and white. Not being able to say no after you've gone too far the first time (and everyone realizes it) is nothing more then weakness. Yet people will use the word disease as a way to blame something else for their weakness instead of accepting responsiblilty for it. It's just as easy to not go out to buy the alcohol or go to the bar as it is to do so. Simple as that.

It doesn't sneak up on you, that's just another excuse.

Well said! Lack of self-control is what it is. That's like calling obesity a disease as they are trying to push these days. Maybe you are obese because you eat twice what you should, and don't ever get off you big lazy butt!!

Crazy to blame a lack of control and label it a disease.

F1nut

You're entitled to your opinions, however wrong they may be.

aaharvel

People who see the world only in black and white often are only attempting to compensate for their lack of knowledge in any given subject of the human condition, or are just too lazy too learn more to begin with.

No offense, but alcoholism is a disease. Mind and body.

MrNightly

Well, in my humble but deadly accurate opinion, I beg to differ.

aaharvel

Even scientists say it's a disease, and have proven it by tracing Alcoholism through family lineage and gene pools. This debate is ancient. What's next? Are we going to challenge if the Holocaust happened or if AIDS can affect anyone who isn't ****? Anyone willing to read up instead of judge and label something slight of hand is already aware of this.

It's affected my family for generations, even to the point of mental, physical, and emotional abuse to various family members, some as close to me as my Mother and dear Grandmother (My late grandfather was the drunk), but thankfully that agony has passed me by. I know first hand what alcoholism is and what it can do, and 90% of the American public agrees with me. Chances are, people who say it's not a disease probably have no idea what the hell i'm talking about so imo, this argument is over.

You guys have a good one, i'm turning in for the night.

http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html

opus

MrNightly wrote:

Umm, this is the Clubhouse. If you don't want to discuss anything other than Audio, then don't come browsing in this part of the forum.

Ummmmmm......Love ya Mrnightly but maybe Cfrizz is talking about rule #2. Pretty clear to me. Sure I have crossed the line a few times but to call out an established member for wishing that Club Polk was about audio and not about Illegal immigration is silly. I've broken the rule a few times but always expected a Justin smackdown and quite frankly welcome it:o

and fluff?
Yep. Exactly what I want. If not I would have typed in ClubPolkat WorldWarIII.com

Feel fre to slam away, just a personal opinion here

bobman1235

aaharvel wrote:

Even scientists say it's a disease, and have proven it by tracing Alcoholism through family lineage and gene pools. This debate is ancient. What's next? Are we going to challenge if the Holocaust happened or if AIDS can affect anyone who isn't ****? Anyone willing to read up instead of judge and label something slight of hand is already aware of this.

It's affected my family for generations, even to the point of mental, physical, and emotional abuse to various family members, some as close to me as my Mother and dear Grandmother (My late grandfather was the drunk), but thankfully that agony has passed me by. I know first hand what alcoholism is and what it can do, and 90% of the American public agrees with me. Chances are, people who say it's not a disease probably have no idea what the hell i'm talking about so imo, this argument is over.

You guys have a good one, i'm turning in for the night.

http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html

Wow, you were really quick to play the "don't mess with me, I have first-hand experience with this" card. Really, they traced it back through generations? I know a lot of **** fat lardass families, whose grandparents are fat lardasses too, does that make obesity a disease? Or is just a matter of not being able to stop stuffing your face?

Nearly everything about us is a product of our genetics, including our willpower and our proclivity towards addiction. You could say that every bad decision you make in your life is based entirely on your genetics, and you would be 100% correct. You could argue that there's no such thing as free will, that your brain is just a collection of electrical impulses and your "decisions" are no more under your control than the fire burning in the sun. See how far that gets you. There's only so far you can use genetics as a crutch.

I feel terrible for anyone with alcoholism, or anyone who's had to deal with it in any way shape or form. It's an awful thing. But the only difference I can see between saying it's a disease vs it's NOT a disease is letting the person afflicted with it off the hook for it. If it's a disease by medical definition, so be it, but it is PREVENTABLE and CONTROLLABLE through non-medical means. The ways you prevent it and deal with it are identical no matter what you call ti.

Ron-P

You're entitled to your opinions, however wrong they may be.

aaharvel

bobman1235 wrote:

But the only difference I can see between saying it's a disease vs it's NOT a disease is letting the person afflicted with it off the hook for it. If it's a disease by medical definition, so be it, but it is PREVENTABLE and CONTROLLABLE through non-medical means. The ways you prevent it and deal with it are identical no matter what you call ti.

Thank you for proving my point Bob. It is a disease, but nowhere did I say one should be let off the hook for it nor did I say that one can't prevent or control it through either medical or non-medical means. You put that claim on the table, not I.

wingnut4772

Skynut wrote:

I recently realized I have an audio disease.

I need monitary therapy to assist me in upgrading my disease one more time before I quit. (for a while)

I definitely have that disease. They need to find a cure or I will go broke:D

Dennis Gardner

Does a baby with alcoholism yearn for alcohol instead of breast milk?

MrNightly

opus wrote:

Ummmmmm......Love ya Mrnightly but maybe Cfrizz is talking about rule #2. Pretty clear to me. Sure I have crossed the line a few times but to call out an established member for wishing that Club Polk was about audio and not about Illegal immigration is silly. I've broken the rule a few times but always expected a Justin smackdown and quite frankly welcome it:o

and fluff?
Yep. Exactly what I want. If not I would have typed in ClubPolkat WorldWarIII.com

Feel fre to slam away, just a personal opinion here

Buddy,

The way she came across was that she didn't want to read anymore about anything non-related to audio. That's the way she made it sound. My point was, if you don't want to read things non-related, why browse in the "Clubhouse" section? Makes perfect sense to me.

Regarding, "Calling out an established member..." Umm, what is that supposed to mean? What makes you an established member vs an unestablished member?? How many speakers you own? How many posts you have? (Give me a break about that , AB anyone [no slam intended]) How many times you have gone to Polk Fest? She posted, I responded along with others. I don't understand the call out of myself, quick frankly. But then, it's a free world and people can type whatever they want.

No hard feelings here one way or the other. I, for one, enjoy a little debate now and then aside from Audio. That's why I participate. If other's get tired of it, don't click the link. To complain that EVERYONE should stop is nonsense. Kinda like, I got tired of smoking cigs, and now I think that Everyone should stop smoking them.

Just doesn't work that way.... does it?

Shizelbs

Put me in the 'its a disease' camp. But what do I know.

F1nut

Dennis Gardner wrote:

Does a baby with alcoholism yearn for alcohol instead of breast milk?

If the mother was a practicing drunk during the term, you bet your ****.

PolkThug

"Disease" is such a cop out. I'll run down to the liquor store and resupply my disease.

Its an addiction which can be harmful, just like nicotine addicts.

F1nut

Throughout time there have been numerous aliments and diseases, both mental and physical that where thought to be BS and were viewed with similar ignorance. As science improved, these diseases have been recognized for what they really are. Nothing different here.....including the ignorance.

wingnut4772

I think maybe some people who don't understand are just really offended by calling alcoholism a disease. When we think of disease it's people with cancer, or muscular dystrophy. People who had absolutely no choice in the matter. Now the argument is do alcoholics have a choice? Again. not being on myself I guess I will truly never know but I can not equate a little boy or girl dying from cancer to someone who can not stop drinking.

bobman1235

aaharvel wrote:

Thank you for proving my point Bob. It is a disease, but nowhere did I say one should be let off the hook for it nor did I say that one can't prevent or control it through either medical or non-medical means. You put that claim on the table, not I.

It really is like speaking with a small child with you sometimes.

I didn't say YOU said it. If you actually read what I did say, rather than just acting like a smug child, you'd see I meant that calling it a disease is a MOOT POINT. It means NOTHING. We're all passionately arguing one way or another, when in the end, the outcome is the same, UNLESS you say that "because it's a disease, the bearer of the disease has no responsibility for it." If you in fact don't believe that, then you can call it a disease all you want, it still means the same as if it wasn't a disease - it has to be treated by the person afflicted, through whatever means they need to not drink. And if they do drink, it's their own fault for not sticking with their treatment.

Willow

They don't call it truth serum for nothing....

Demiurge

It's a mixture of both, and some of you are really watering down the definition of disease. My Aunt and Uncle are both recovering alcoholics. My Uncle works for me, so I guess I have had some pretty in-depth discussions about it with him over the years. He messed his life up a lot, getting in numerous accidents and nearly killing himself, but managed to get back on track by getting help, and then quitting drinking.

He's been sober for about 25 years now, his wife just recently went back to it off and on after the same amount of time. She started drinking again to ease the pain of her effed up son who keeps doing stupid things. If it wasn't alcohol it could have been food, spending money, sex, gambling, illicit drugs, you name it. It's not a valid excuse, but it's how people ease the pains in their lives. It's why I don't believe drinking is a disease so much as they are predisposed to be addicts.

Alcoholism is an addiction way more than it's a disease, as people conventionally understand it. I do think certain people can be more likely to become addicted to things than others genetically. Calling it a disease is a bit of a cop out, because it's a way to take responsibility off of the user. It does get used as an excuse. I feel sorry for alcoholics, but they shouldn't get any less of a prison sentence than the rest of us because some bloodsucking lawyer wants to argue it was all caused by a disease.

I'm sure that they were compelled to drink because they didn't have any help, but it shouldn't absolve anyone of responsibility for their actions. It's like that Andrea Yates who essentially get's absolved of her crimes, and doesn't have to do hard time because she's insane.

ND13

Bi-polar(manic depression) is a disease that's, in some ways, like alcoholism. Let me explain....I'm talking about the responsibility issue. If you are affilicted with manic depression, then you know you have to be on your meds or all hell MIGHT break loose. If you aren't responsible enough to take your meds, as prescribed, and you go off on someone, then sorry, you're not getting off on the insanity plea in my book. Same for alcoholics, while a disease, one that knows they are an alcoholic should be responsible enough to avoid any situation that could lead to drinking. Noone has said that because one is an alcoholic, they shouldn't be held responsible for any transgressions they might commit after falling off the wagon. There's a similar arguement for schizophrenics and them being on their meds, too.

Some of you want to lump all diseases into one category...it's just not that simple.

Demiurge

I still think it's a little bit of a predisposition to addiction moreso than alcohol itself, which in turn can be a mental disorder. Chemical imbalance or what have you. I just don't think that you're driven to the bottle by nature of birth. What would you do if alcohol didn't exist? You couldn't drink. That's one reason why people don't want to call it a disease. I really think it's an addiction issue, and in that sense maybe a disease, but naturally being predisposed to alcohol? Doesn't make any sense, but I am open to an explanation if anyone is aware of one. I think someone who is overweight could easily be an alcoholic, but they chose a different poison. In that sense, it's certainly not their fault that they're more likely to be addicted to something that can harm them over time. They just need help.

The other reason people don't want to call it a disease is because it is used as an excuse for poor behavior in our court system. Their disease can take the life of someone else because they got a lenient judge.

ohskigod

using the word "disease" is really just a matter of semantics. Fact is, there is a reason that there is a difference between casual drinking and flat out alcoholism. the line is crossed when your body physically yearns for alcohol, as opposed to you making a conscious decision to pound a few shots because you wanna get hammered at a particular time.

the affects are more clear in drug use. It starts that you take the drug because you want to feel the effects of it, but quickly (far quicker than alcohol) your body becomes chemically dependent on the drug. Even when you mentally want to stop, your body physically calls out for it in a way the non addicted could never imagine. Its a force as strong, if not stronger than extreme thirst or hunger.

the nature of addiction is what was traced to heredity. Some are more predisposed to addiction than others, which makes sence, since strong addiction is pretty much physically driven by the body (at least in my eyes) than mentally. the strength, or lack thereof, lies in what one chooses to do once they reach this point. some are strong enough to get the help, and others are too weak to take matters into there own hands, because beating an addiction is hard, DAMN hard to do. fortunatly, I dont know that from self experience, but have seen enough to make the conclusion.

having the strength to do something that hard, or lack of it, is where the responsibility lies. If you choose to do nothing about it, becasue it is too hard, then you suffer the consequences for it. That includes the deterioration of your health, as well as legal ramifications, how it affects your loved ones, etc.

that aside, I still wouldnt call it a disease, any more than I would call the bleeding as a result of cutting my own arm a disease in and of itself. You m ake a choice, and make no mistake, the path of addiction starts with a choice (unless your born of an addict mother, different ballgame).

just my .02

Demiurge

Yep, just what I was saying, Lou. I think they got hooked on a poision that very well could have been something else. In that sense I can agree it's a disorder of some kind, that in part, is no fault of their own.