WALMART: The HIGH Cost Of low Prices

DarqueKnight

Demiurge wrote:

They [Wal-Mart]use muscle in a way that's just unethical in business....

How many of you use Microsoft software?

danger boy

i'm heading to Wal Mart... seriously. i am. see ya later

unc2701

My dad was an excutive for one of the biggest clothing manufactures for about 20 years- he's convinced Walmart is the reason that all our manufacturing is going overseas.

Plus their dirty business practices aren't restricted to buying land.

Them: "we want 100,000 packs of tshirts at $3 each"
Dad: "Ok"
[they make tshirts, put them on truck as truck is pulling into walmart warehouse, he gets a call]
Them: "We're gonna pay you $2.75 each"
Dad: "uhh.... you said $3"
Them: "Well, we don't want them anyway... and cancel all our other orders"

Fruit of the loom (not my dad's company) went bankrupt due, in part, to this ****.

schwarcw

I'm going to buy some Walmart stock. They sound like good business people. I want a piece of that action.

mrbigbluelight

don't have their heads in the sand.

"Levis" are now made overseas due to Walmart's DEMAND that they deliver to Walmart jeans at $x.xx per unit. It would have only been slightly higher to have the same jeans made in America, a fact that Levis pointed out to Walmart. The slightly higher price would still have been the cost leader for jeans in that particular market niche.

Walmart wouldn't budge. So enjoy your Chinese jeans.

A lot of vendors hate doing business with Walmart because of their cut-your-throat attitude.

lomic

Yes, Wal-Mart is capitalism, but we no longer live in the dark age where Capitalism = Good, Socialism = Bad. Most reasonable people agree that while capitalism is good because it encourages innovation, it is a system that exists at the expense of employees, both at retail and manufacturing levels.

It is because we and other first world countries industrialized early and treated workers like crap that we're still riding on that massive wave of capital. It seems more and more the US is simply in the business of business, without actually producing anything. I work at a specialty retailer and the _ONLY_ thing we sell that's made in the US is Kodak film and leather photo albums from Maine. Our last inventory was around 6500 items, a total of about 100 of which are made in the US.

I've only been in a Wal-Mart once, after 9/11 I had to drive back to California from Virginia - I was supposed to fly out of Dulles to SJ at 12:10 on 9/11 - and it was literally the only place to get things in a lot of towns along the way. I simply didn't like the feel of being in their store for some reason, and that was before I knew about their business practices.

I admit I'm not in the situation where I'm trying to support 3 kids on $20k/year, so maybe I just don't understand what Wal-Mart does for people who have to scrape by - but I also see a lot of shopaholics who buy useless crap and just consume, consume, consume. I try to only make substantial purchases of things I'll use - and that will last - for years. I'm not trying to look down from a high horse, but I wish people would learn more temperance in their shopping. I guess I'm just lucky that I've learned by 25 that items don't make me happy for more than a day.

TroyD

Capitalism exists at the expense of the employees?? And socialism doesn't??

Ok, let's chat about the evils of working at Wal-Mart. These mouth-breathers that work there; ok; in most cases, I don't think that the vast majority would be similarly employed elsewhere. I mean, it's not like they are conscripts. They can leave and try thier hand someplace else (which wouldn't necessarily be the case in a Marxist regime). So, as far as Walmart being evil to work for, whatever. At least they have the opportunity to get on full time in which case they ARE eligible for benefits and health insurance which many small businesses (ie Mom and Pop) do not. Don't for a second think that Mom and Pop businesses are all that altruistic. For example, Aubuchon Hardware in Wells, Maine. Screwed people for YEARS, why? Because they COULD. Come Memorial Day, when the tourists came to town, prices went up 20%..just because. Now, there was a couple of folks that worked for Mr A. for years, I can tell you that they were not paid well nor did they have any sort of benefits. Mr. A, however, drove a new sports car every year and vacationed around the world. Yup, he was a GREAT guy. Lowe's moved in just a few miles up the road, his employees went there, got paid better and with benefits. Good for them, Eff Aubuchon. Now, moral is, for every good 'Mom and Pop' I can probably show you a greedy **** like Aubuchon. In which case, I'll support Lowe's. Why? Because by patronizing Lowe's, I'm putting money in the stockholder's pockets...people like me. Not rich by any means. I shop at Aubuchon's, I'm putting money into his new Porsche.

Now, don't get me started on the friggin' Marxists. Anyone who does NOT see how that's played out in practice needs to get a head exam.

Next, ok. Let's take Levi's. They want to sell thier jeans to Dillards at 20 bucks a pair. Dillards wants to sell them at 75. Walmart say, I'll pay you 10 and they sell them at 25. What's the problem? Levi's is going to sell a HELL of a lot more jeans. Don't start about production going overseas because that happened LONG before WalMart came to town. I remember my parents bitching about crap being made in Taiwan when I was a kid, some 30 years ago. If you let the market regulate employment and consumption. Does Dillards pay thier cashiers any better? Pffft. So where is the benefit of paying an extra fifty bucks for a pair of pants? Certainly not to me. I doubt that the cashiers at Dilliards are make disproportionately more.

Ok, so we get to the poor **** working in the factory producing said item. (that's where the argument tends to lead). The US auto industry is a shining example of why it's bad to pay an artifically high wage. Sure, it's all well and good that they guys sweeping the floor in the GM plant can afford to send his kids to Ivy League schools AND his second home up on the lake.....sure as hell doesn't do much for the guy trying to BUY one of GM's cars. The US auto industry is in the **** in no small part because they have successfully priced themselves out and labor costs are one major factor.

Again, why should I feel bad about shopping at Walmart?

BDT

bobman1235

danger boy wrote:

they want to build a Wal Mart next to my work.. i can't wait. the neighbors are putting up a big **** fight though. So it may never get built. If it does.. it'll completly destroy the Shopko already there.

I don't think Wal Mart is evil. Their prices are pretty good. Starbucks is evil. their prices are high.. luckily i don't drink coffee/espresso/latte's, etc.

There's nothing EVIL about Starbucks. People just like to pretend therer is. First of all, it's a COFFEE shop, not a place that sells NECESSITIES like walmart. SECOND, a cup of COFFEE at Starbucks costs less than at most other places, people just insist on buying fruity la-dee-dah drinks at *$ that cost an arm and a leg.

If you were selling coffee, and you could add a squirt of cocoa to your coffee and charge 4x the amount, you wouldn't?

Starbucks is supposed to be one of the best companies in teh country to work for. They treat their employees great, they have a knowledgable group of employees for the most part.... the only thing they do that could be considered "wrong" is put "mom and pop" coffee places out of business, but that's PURE capitalism. Hell, they're not even like walmart, putting places out of business by having "unfairly" low prices. They just have a better product.

ND13

mrbigbluelight wrote:

don't have their heads in the sand.

"Levis" are now made overseas due to Walmart's DEMAND that they deliver to Walmart jeans at $x.xx per unit. It would have only been slightly higher to have the same jeans made in America, a fact that Levis pointed out to Walmart. The slightly higher price would still have been the cost leader for jeans in that particular market niche.

Walmart wouldn't budge. So enjoy your Chinese jeans.

A lot of vendors hate doing business with Walmart because of their cut-your-throat attitude.

Sorry, but that's the choice of Levis. They don't need to use Wal-Mart as an outlet in order to sell their jeans. They are, by far, the most recognized jeans manufacturer in the world. If they want to use WM as an outlet then they'll have to do what it takes to sell to them at the required price, but it's their choice.

shack

If not Wal-Mart, it WOULD have been someone else. Don't think for a minute that Mom-n-Pop stores and the US textile industries would have continued had it not been for the evil Wal-Mart. I suppose you would like to blame the demise of the US Steel industy and loss of jobs to foreign labor on Wal-Mart too? Protectionism of US jobs in a capitalistic economy simply will not work....The consumers will not stand for the results of a protectionist policy...no matter what your pro-labor folks tell you.

TroyD

shack wrote:

The consumers will not stand for the results of a protectionist policy...no matter what your pro-labor folks tell you.

Exactly....

BDT

unc2701

ND13 wrote:

Sorry, but that's the choice of Levis. They don't need to use Wal-Mart as an outlet in order to sell their jeans. They are, by far, the most recognized jeans manufacturer in the world. If they want to use WM as an outlet then they'll have to do what it takes to sell to them at the required price, but it's their choice.

See that's where you're wrong. Walmart has such a huge market share on everything, that companies become dependent. Let say 80% (not unreasonable) of levis sold are sold through walmart and they're paying $15 a pair to levis... then walmart says that they're gonna drop their price to $10... Then $7.50. Sure Levis can say no, but they'll take such a huge hit that it'll put them under. So Levis has to drop costs somehow and that's when they move to china.

In 2003 Walmart accounted for 2.5% of the US GNP and 19% of all groceries sold. I'm still trying to verify, but the number for last year was more like 5% of the GNP.

heiney9

ND13 wrote:

NO!!!!! I try never to make eye contact with any of them:p

Or the customers either :eek: . I don't mean to generalize but in my area one of the reasons I don't shop at Walmart is the people who go there. Oh my god it's like walking into the bar in the first Star Wars movie. Rude, obnoxius, unkempt, loud, selfish and did I mention rude. Sure those types of people are everywhere, but Walmart seems to attract a much higher ratio. I have one within a mile of my place and I tend to go all the way accross town to Target. I will stop there occasionally for a quick item (which is impossible because of the size of the store) on the way to visit my parents. Otherwise, I really have a huge distaste for Walmart. And if you really do some research they really aren't the lowest priced on most items. I've found other national chains to be similar in price and selection and sometimes even lower priced.

To each their own......and as someone stated earlier it's the customers willingness to shop there that has made them successful. Labor practices are better but that's only because they got caught and that nasty dispute with Master card is settled too. My bank debit card is Master card and Walmart refused to honor it before the dispute was settled. I was deathly ill and was picking up a prescription, which I waited around for almost 30 minutes. I get up to the check-out with some liquids to rehydrate myself and the prescription feeling like ****, pull out my card, and she says we don't take those. I had no cash or checkbook with me. I had to leave and go home and come back. This was about 3 years ago and ever since I've avoided them.

Come to find out they were having a huge dispute with Master card about the fee's they had to pay to accept MC. WTF, MC can't be anymore than Visa or Discover. Walmart just wanted to flex their muscle and I believe in the end they lost or it was a stale mate or something.

H9

ND13

unc2701 wrote:

See that's where you're wrong. Walmart has such a huge market share on everything, that companies become dependent. Let say 80% (not unreasonable) of levis sold are sold through walmart and they're paying $15 a pair to levis... then walmart says that they're gonna drop their price to $10... Then $7.50. Sure Levis can say no, but they'll take such a huge hit that it'll put them under. So Levis has to drop costs somehow and that's when they move to china.

In 2003 Walmart accounted for 2.5% of the US GNP and 19% of all groceries sold. I'm still trying to verify, but the number for last year was more like 5% of the GNP.

I don't think I am wrong. Levis just started showing up in Wal-Marts around here in the last two years and they only sell the low-end of the line. They don't sell the 501s, 505s, 517s, etc,etc. Levis would do just fine without Wal Mart as an outlet. If your logic was true, then Tommy, Calvin Klein, Lees and others would have to sell to Wal Mart in order to remain competetive. Wal-Mart only sells the low end Levis, Wrangler, and off brand jeans. They do not compete with the Dept Stores for the mid to high end lines of clothing.

Do you buy your clothes at Wal-Mart???

unc2701

Ok, levis might be a bad example, but that's exactly what happens with most their suppliers.

Holydoc

Hmm...hate being a minority, but I love Walmarts. In our small town, it contains all your necessities for a price cheaper than anywhere else. Before Walmart, everyone was complaining here about the high price of everything we bought. Heck you were lucky to be able to afford a couple pairs of pants and shirts for your children when they started school. Now you can feel confident that you can at least send your kids to school dressed. Not to mention, that DVD's are cheap..CHEAP....CHEAP!

If you feel they do not pay their employees well, then why work there? Go somewhere else. If you do not like the store then do not purchase from them.

Today, I do not buy any of my clothes nor any of my electronics from them. But as far as other consumables, Walmart is the way to go. Of course I am always open for change. If Walmart starts carrying higher end stuff, you may see me there looking for a parking spot.

*shrug*

ND13

I only buy specific types of products from Wal-Mart. In the town I live in, I'd have to drive at least 35-45 minutes in order to shop for them elsewhere. That's not Wal-Mart's fault. The problem around here is that the customers that use to shop at K-Mart(the one's that H9 is talking about)no longer can, so they have to go to Wal-Mart. The closest k-Mart is 45 minutes away. Same for Target. We're supposedly getting a Lowes here, soon.

wingnut4772

It's just evolution. Wallmart takes the world by storm for a while and then the next cycle, people realize that you get what you pay for and start to want the smaller stores to get better service etc. I like the prices of Wallmart but I HATE shopping there. It's a zoo.

sucks2beme

I seldom go there since they added groceries. The place is a zoo, and the wait at the register is outrageous. If I do go, it's late at night during "creepshow" hours. There seems to be one around every corner here in Dallas/Ft. Worth. Like Best Buy and Home Depot, there will be a huge crash
when cunsumer spending slows up even a little. All these retailers have expanded so much that their main competition is their own stores cross town!

aaharvel

TroyD wrote:

At least they have the opportunity to get on full time in which case they ARE eligible for benefits and health insurance which many small businesses (ie Mom and Pop) do not.

Too bad that Walmart defines full-time as 28hours now. And guess what? It doesn't include benefits. The average salary of a full-time employee is just over $13,000. Benefits and health insurance? Only to those few employees that actually do work 40plus hours, PLUS because Wal-mart doesn't pay overtime either. Individuals on a $13,000 avg. income can't afford Walmart's benefits and health insurance programs.

We can play these games of Walmart Good, Walmart Evil all day long, but until one actually put their presumptions aside about a company they've never worked for and actually listen to those that have, then nothing gets better, just stays the same.

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3.html

Demiurge

ND13 wrote:

I only buy specific types of products from Wal-Mart. In the town I live in, I'd have to drive at least 35-45 minutes in order to shop for them elsewhere. That's not Wal-Mart's fault. The problem around here is that the customers that use to shop at K-Mart(the one's that H9 is talking about)no longer can, so they have to go to Wal-Mart. The closest k-Mart is 45 minutes away. Same for Target. We're supposedly getting a Lowes here, soon.

Same here, man. Same here.

To DarqueNight -

You're probably misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm not at all against the Capitalistic nature of WalMart, I mean are you kidding me? It's Demiurge posting! I'm about as pro-business and pro-capitalism as you can get.

What I have a beef with WalMart about it how they hijack their vendors. It's not at all the muscle that they use to get the lowest price, that is capitalism. It's about how they pay.

In business we have terms which companies agree with. If I am a small distributor, or even an exclusive distributor of a product WalMart can **** rape me really hard by hijacking the payment terms.

The standard, almost across the board, is Net 30 terms. It means that 30 days from the date of the invoice (generally the day the item ships) the balance is due. If WalMart is extendet $500,000 in a month (more or less) that puts a gigantic strain on the vendor when they don't see a payment in 90 days. THAT is what ultimately puts businesses under these days. When you can't pay your bills because WalMart isn't paying you it's a huge business ethics problem.

I deal with this problem all of the time in my business and I am not dealing with WalMart. Companies like Boeing, Pratt & Whitney, and Lockheed Martin still do the ethical thing by not holding their vendors' payments hostage. General Motors, Ford, and a few other corporate giants that I dfeal with sometimes take up to 90 days to pay.

What can I do? Say we can't do business? Fat chance, we rely on their orders despite their payment history. Can I try to impose finance charges for overdue invoices? Fat chance, they won't pay it, and you won't have the capital to fight it.

Companies like WalMart have vendors by the balls. That's where they are unethical. I'm pretty conscious about what I do or do not buy from WalMart. WalMart has a lot of good and a lot of bad, but that's what comes from being that size.

reeltrouble1

Just for Demi!!

F-Target!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really dont like Target, its a personal thing, I was trying to raise some dough for a charity involved with veterans and they told me they did not consider veterans an appropriate group to donate cash too.

Wal-Mart---well I avoid the place, the prices might be a bit lower, but the service/staff/management at my local one is pretty bad. I just cant take the long lines and the generally pissed off folks I see working there.

When I retire I am considering being a greeter though, I want to put those stickers all over some of the babes body parts!!! Yes I am a bad man.

RT1

Demiurge

aaharvel wrote:

"Target Corporation is consistently ranked as one of the most philanthropic companies...blah...blah...blah

The point is that WalMart being #1 they get all of the attention. I guarantee if it's Target someone is making a video about all the bad things Target does. WalMart has good and bad qualities.

aaharvel

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Just for Demi!!

F-Target!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really dont like Target, its a personal thing, I was trying to raise some dough for a charity involved with veterans and they told me they did not consider veterans an appropriate group to donate cash too.RT1

I don't understand. You work/ed for Target and they said no to you about raising money on their property?

I thought Target, as a company, supported Veteran groups. I gave to a veterans cause they sponsored last Christmas here in Greensboro. http://sites.target.com/site/en/corporate/page.jsp?contentId=PRD03-001461

(edit) Demi that's true. That is the price of being #1. But with being #1 also comes at least some sort of corporate responsibility. To the vendor, worker, community, etc. It's not like Target is #125 on the list. I believe they're right behind Walmart, and thus they're not immune from the spotlight either. I'm sure they're not perfect either, what company is- it's just I've never heard of Target's practices be this bad.

Demiurge

IIRC Target was offended by the word Christmas. I wonder if they're offended by the vacation they get for Christmas. I think there was a big to do about the Salvation Army.

aaharvel

You're right. The Christmas thing was to not offend anyone who weren't Christian shoppers?

The only problem with that logic is that it's a federal holiday, and secondly... most people don't care. It's consumerism for godsakes not idealism. They should call it what it is. Christmas. Period. I mean i'm Agnostic (that's not Athiesm btw) and I like the word Christmas. I like the holiday Christmas.

Like I said, no company is perfect. I think "Happy Holidays" is a fine statement. But really, on December 24/25, call it what it is.

btw, Walmart brass still instructs it's employees to say "Happy Holidays" too.

Refefer

It's an early christmas, here are a bunch of links:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snapper.html - a real story about the Snapper tractor company.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51521-2005Apr13.html?nav=hcmodule - A story about how Wal-Mart closed a store because it's employees voted to unionize... and Wal-mart would HATE that.

http://tianews.blogspot.com/2004/11/great-wal-mart-of-china-part-ii.html - A good read for those interested in "The Great Wal-mart of China"

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores2.html - Store Wars: A very well documented and well known case of the Wal-mart effect. A very good read.

That is all

reeltrouble1

No Aaharvel I did not work for Target, a group I was associated with simply contacted them to raise funds for the charity and was told they did not consider american war veterans charities a worthy cause.

If questioned I am sure they would point to the charities they donate too, its their business, like I said its a personal thing with me I am not wanting anybody to not shop there or whatever.

I really dont think Wal-Mart is going to win any awards for there business ethics with mom and pops, vendors and so on. The fact that they just lost a huge class action regarding employees right to lunches is well documented. I avoid the place. But again that is my decision and if anyone else wants to shop there its there's.

RT1

TroyD

aaharvel wrote:

Too bad that Walmart defines full-time as 28hours now. And guess what? It doesn't include benefits. The average salary of a full-time employee is just over $13,000. Benefits and health insurance? Only to those few employees that actually do work 40plus hours, PLUS because Wal-mart doesn't pay overtime either. Individuals on a $13,000 avg. income can't afford Walmart's benefits and health insurance programs.

We can play these games of Walmart Good, Walmart Evil all day long, but until one actually put their presumptions aside about a company they've never worked for and actually listen to those that have, then nothing gets better, just stays the same.

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3.html

I actually do know a number of people who work for Wal-Mart. In fact, a very good friend gave up her own optical shop to manage the Wal-Mart optical shop. They paid better than she did on her own and had much better benefits.

Have you actually SEEN the people who work at Wal-Mart? No offense, but a lot of them it's that or the corner Zippy-Mart. Plus, who the hell says they HAVE to work thier? If it's so friggin' bad, go someplace else! Don't even START with the 'well, what else is out there?' That's a copout pantload.

If you are making 13K a year, and that's the BEST you can do, sorry, you have bigger problems than Walmart. Far as salary/OT thing.....whatever, nobody is holding a gun to your head to work there.

BDT

F1nut

Again, why should I feel bad about shopping at Walmart?

Because I said so, you **** bro.