Be proud....

PhantomOG

steveinaz wrote:

Phantom,
In all seriousness; how would you react to your backdoor being kicked in at 2:15 am and finding an armed miscreant in your home? What would you do to protect yourself and your family?

I see you have chosen to completely ignore my comments and pose superfluous questions.

As I said before, I do not think guns should be outright banned. I believe the sale of guns should be monitored and logical restrictions should be enforced (felons, underage, no fully automatic, etc.). I am completely missing the connection between arguing for the right to bear arms and your insinuation that I would be safer if I had access to a loaded gun at all times. My personal belief is that in order for a gun to be truly effective in a situation like that, loaded guns would have to be almost immediately accessible in every room in my house. Do I want loaded guns immediately accessible in every room in my home? Absolutely not. Are you going to sit in judgement of me for making that choice? Because I can tell you right now I'm not judging you for making a different choice.

My whole comment on this thread was using specific acts of criminals and crime statistics as a basis for or against gun control is stupid. You have chosen to completely ignore this comment and take offense to anyone daring to argue against you when discussing gun control.

steveinaz

I'm just trying to understand the resistance to being armed in a bad situation---maybe it is the "won't happen to me" syndrome, I don't know.

ND13

Really what this whole thing comes down to is that the Constitution gives each law abiding citizen, of legal age, the right to keep and bear arms, it's just that simple. I'm sorry, but before they revoke something like that, I want them to, at least, let US(as in you and I) vote on it, not let corrupt politicians, that have lobbysist(NRA and others) and the bleeding heart groups in their grill all day, decide it for us. Take a damn real vote.

If you want to give up your right to bear arms, then you can, but leave me out of it.

steveinaz

unc2701 wrote:

Use a rifle that can legally be carried in all 50 states?

Sorry, but home invasion has nothing to do the the topic of the thread.

Is a rifle not a firearm? The thread is about crime, home invasion is a crime. A quite common one at that.

cfrizz

Look Steve, you started this rant against anti-gun laws by citing some crimes that happened on the street. Then you switched over to one that happens in your own home. These are 2 very different scenarios, which should be handled totally differently.

I don't think you will get any arguement from anyone on here that people have the right to defend themselves against home invaders by whatever means necessary, including shooting them.

But as others have pointed out, you can in no way state a defensible position for your point of view with regards to crime that happens on a public street! neither side can do it!

So if you want to have this debate, it probably would be best to stick with the home invasion scenario!

steveinaz wrote:

Phantom,
In all seriousness; how would you react to your backdoor being kicked in at 2:15 am and finding an armed miscreant in your home? What would you do to protect yourself and your family?

The criminal element has changed, they'll kill you just "because." Did you see the recent story of the 2 elderly folks that were killed in Michigan? The motive was robbery.....ROBBERY. Why on earth would you need to kill to 80+ year old people to rob them? Why? because they get off on it.

So again, what's your plan for a home invasion? The average police response time is 11-15 minutes, it takes an "average" shooter about 6.5 seconds to fire 14 rds from a semi-auto handgun. 11 minutes would be an eternity in that scenario...

unc2701

I defer to ND13 and cfrizz...

steveinaz

PhantomOG wrote:

I see you have chosen to completely ignore my comments and pose superfluous questions.

As I said before, I do not think guns should be outright banned. I believe the sale of guns should be monitored and logical restrictions should be enforced (felons, underage, no fully automatic, etc.). I am completely missing the connection between arguing for the right to bear arms and your insinuation that I would be safer if I had access to a loaded gun at all times. My personal belief is that in order for a gun to be truly effective in a situation like that, loaded guns would have to be almost immediately accessible in every room in my house. Do I want loaded guns immediately accessible in every room in my home? Absolutely not. Are you going to sit in judgement of me for making that choice? Because I can tell you right now I'm not judging you for making a different choice.

No judgement being passed, I'm just trying to understand your view. I stated earlier in the thread that I have no problem with those who choose not to own a firearm. I just ask that they don't impede my freedom to choose to have a firearm.

BIZILL

steveinaz wrote:

I just ask that they don't impede my freedom to choose to have a firearm.

...which is what is happening with legislation.

cfrizz

So go take it up with your bloody legislators, coming in here to stir up crap that no one can do anything about in here is just useless!

Demiurge

unc2701 wrote:

Ok, I had 2004 statistics, but CCW has been available for years around here and its done fuckall to the crime rate. And it's not just Durham. It's everywhere. Got it? Say it with me, "It does nothing"

So, On an individual level, let me tell you my two gun in the face expericences and you tell me how having a gun would have helped.

1)I'm walking down the street in Durham, I pass some thugs. one says, "hey, you got some change" I turn around and dude's holding a pistol about 3 feet away. He got my wallet (no cash) and got off one charge before I canceled the cards.

2)I'm on my way to tikal, guatemala. There's a roadblock, but they're waving the car ahead through- about 10 guys under 25, 3-4 with assault rifles. I stop the car, they make me get out, take my watch & the cash I had in my pocket (had all my real cash in my shoe, under the insole).

The truth is that in both of those situations, a gun wouldn't have done a damn bit of good. You can swing your balls around all you want, but it just doesn't fly and that's how about 99% of the inocent vs criminal showdowns go. I lost $7 US and a crappy fossil watch.

I'm all behind gun ownership, but saying that the laws chang crime rates in either direction is an outright lie.

I was robbed at gun point when I was 20 years old delivering pizzas to put myself through school. I'm a 6' 6" 275 pound guy with a big frame, and not someone you really want **** around with unless you've got a weapon. The guy got my money and shot at me as he was running away. Fortunately he didn't know what the hell he was doing. He also never got caught.

If I had a gun that's a simple pulling out of my gun and putting a bullet in his head before he has any idea what's going on. Wondering whether or not cooperating with a lunatic is going to result in my dying isn't a fun feeling. I'd rather have a fighting chance. Even with a gun I could have been shot by him, and he could have killed me, but at least I would have had a chance to defend myself.

I'm done with this thread because trying to argue with people who don't own, or who have never handled firearms is a pointless proposition. I take my friends to the range with me, and that's normally all it takes. I'm a marksman by hobby, so this issue has more than just a criminal element for me. I'll always own all of them as well, including my M-4.

I pray the rest of you never get in a situation where you'll wish you had something to defend yourself with -- I'm glad I was one of the lucky ones.

ND13

Cathy,

I didn't know you were British;)

Demi,

I know how it feels, too. I was held up in my car, when I lived in Nashville. I was at a stoplight and dude just jumped in and stuck a 9mm to my temple. I said, just let me get out and you can have the friggin car, but all he wanted was my wallet. I wasn't afraid of the gun, I was afraid of his trembling hand with a finger on the trigger. I was lucky. That **** got all my identification, credit cards, checkbook, and quite a bit of cash. He wrote bad checks all over town.

steveinaz

Hey, do what you like. How ironic, I'm an anti-flag burning, smoking, gun toting American---30 years ago I'd a been a hero. Now I'm a menace; thats cool, I'll take that title and wear it proudly.

Good luck...

BIZILL

steve, you're my hero.

Skynut

Debate is very healthy cathy, it allows people to speak their minds and learn where the other side is "comming from".

I do not know statistics but it seems to me that a criminal IS going to think twice if bullets can easily come from any angle to stop him. Just like the cameras in public places make them think twice about crimes of opportunity.

Have you ever been in a situation where you had a chance to break the law and thought "no one would ever know"? If so then you know that either you are made of the right stuff and do not do it because of ethics or maybe you would have if there were not any cameras.

I went to the atm one day and when I got there the machine was beeping. No one was around and the screen said "would you like another transaction"?
I pressed yes and it was going to allow me to take money from this account.
Ethics kicked in first and I thought about how I would feel if it were my card then I realized I was on camera.
I canceled the transaction and sent the card to the address on the back.

If I was contemplating a life of crime the fact that ANYONE may have the ability to stop me would weigh heavy on my mind.
If I was a law abiding citizen (which I am) and was carring a weapon legally, I would be very responsible with that power for fear of breaking the law and loosing my rights.

Remember if guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns.

One problem not mentioned yet is the fact that guns in the home need to be kept safe from children.
My guns are locked in a safe to insure that one of my kids or their friends do not get ahold of them and do something stupid.
As soon as I was maired to a woman with kids I started taking them out shooting. We practice things like how to use the safety, muzle control and keep the finger off the trigger until the target has been chosen.
I am not real worried about my kids blowing it but if my gun winds up in the hands of any kid I can get in trouble.
That being said, my home invasion plan involves me getting into my safe before they overtake me. THAT SUCKS.
My big safe is easy to open and hard to hide so it does not get any loaded weapons left in it for fear of them being used on my family.
My little safe is hidden and has the ammo and my loaded .357. It takes longer to open and my fear is I won't get a chance in a home invasion situation.

When I was single my .357 was close and the mossberg closer but all that has changed.

BIZILL

Skynut wrote:

I do not know statistics but it seems to me that a criminal IS going to think twice if bullets can easily come from any angle to stop him. Just like the cameras in public places make them think twice about crimes of opportunity.

yes, in the scenarios presented earlier it may not have been prudent to pull one's own weapon. but with ccw permits available, more people would be packin'. so if you cannot draw your own weapon, then maybe some bystander could diffuse the situation with a well-placed shot to the assailant.

ND13

He said ****ailant

George Grand

The possibility of bullets coming back at them from any angle doesn't seem to faze the gang bangers one bit. They already know that they are all armed and they draw and fire on each other like nobody's business. WHY I don't know, I just know that they do. God lets innocent women and CHILDREN get killed in the cross-fire. WHY, I don't know, he just does.


From yesterday's Filthadelphia Inquirer newspaper (it's largest):

"Even by Philadelphia standards, three people shot to death and five others wounded by gunfire within about half an hour is a particularly violent stretch. Four unrelated incidents left a bloody trail across the city, stretching from the Southwest to the Northeast, between 11:19 and 11:52 p.m. Monday."

Systems

Move to Kentucky. Crime isn't that bad. I thinks its because everbody has a gun hanging in there truck window.:D

ND13

George Grand wrote:

The possibility of bullets coming back at them from any angle doesn't seem to faze the gang bangers one bit. They already know that they are all armed and they draw and fire on each other like nobody's business. WHY I don't know, I just know that they do. God lets innocent women and CHILDREN get killed in the cross-fire. WHY, I don't know, he just does.


From yesterday's Filthadelphia Inquirer newspaper (it's largest):

"Even by Philadelphia standards, three people shot to death and five others wounded by gunfire within about half an hour is a particularly violent stretch. Four unrelated incidents left a bloody trail across the city, stretching from the Southwest to the Northeast, between 11:19 and 11:52 p.m. Monday."

The only thing is, I'd lay money that none of the shooters had legal possesion of their weapon and that's the main point of this thread, imo. Our "Right to Bear Arms" is slowly being taking away from the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS, not the bad guys.

Skynut

Gang bangers are usually just trying to kill each other and not rob each other, plus they are enemies.
If someone is out to rob someone they will not shoot till they are done for fear of attention. (my opnion)

It doen't really matter because the criminals will continue to be criminals.

If they fear an armed public they will do their crimes in less public places.

The real problem is we are not hard enough on the criminals period.

Skynuts opnion on punishment is as follows...

Lock up bad guys based on the crime, violent ofenders with violent ofenders, theifs with theifs, child molester with whichever group is the worst.
No special places to keep the crips away from the bloods.
No t.v. in the cells.
No phones.
Make life in prison horrible.
Use capitol punnishment for anyone serving life w/o parol.
Put all exectutions on pay-per-view so they can be "public executions"

Sit back and watch crime rates fall.

George Grand

Well ****, a lot of OUR rights seem to be eroding, and what I'm hearing on this forum is people haggling over the ones that THEY LIKE.

Lots of legal firearms, registered to legal people, seem to get involved in illegal acts. Just cause a boy is okay one day doesn't mean he's going to be sociable the next.

zombie boy 2000

n2pool wrote:

Move to Kentucky. Crime isn't that bad. I thinks its because everbody has a gun hanging in there truck window.:D

Maybe everyone in Big Blue Nation outside of Louisville:D

PhantomOG

steveinaz wrote:

I'm just trying to understand the resistance to being armed in a bad situation---maybe it is the "won't happen to me" syndrome, I don't know.

I don't think there is a resistance to the option of being armed in a bad situation. There is a resistance to the repeated comments that try to correlate gun control laws with more crimes being committed or even worse blaming crimes on gun control laws instead of the criminals.

Small town just south of here, San Marcos (bumblef*ck, TX), has had a large recent wave of burglaries and shootings. Texas has had concealed weapons since 1996. Does that mean we should repeal the concealed weapons allowed here in TX? NO. The two have nothing to do with each other. It works BOTH ways.

cfrizz

No Steve, you are not a menace. However, you came across as labeling everyone who doesn't agree with you as a menace. Just who is "THEY"?

" No judgement being passed, I'm just trying to understand your view. I stated earlier in the thread that I have no problem with those who choose not to own a firearm. I just ask that they don't impede my freedom to choose to have a firearm."

I don't recall anyone telling you on this board that you shouldn't carry a firearm!

But at the same time, I DO NOT want a whole bunch of Equalizers running around playing vigilante! It's a nice fantasy to watch it on tv, but I don't want to be living around any of them in real life, cause I don't want to get caught in the crossfire!

steveinaz wrote:

Hey, do what you like. How ironic, I'm an anti-flag burning, smoking, gun toting American---30 years ago I'd a been a hero. Now I'm a menace; thats cool, I'll take that title and wear it proudly.

Good luck...

BIZILL

he was referring to government and legislature. not so much anyone here. and yes, i can read his mind and answer for him.;)

ND13

You freak!!!

BIZILL

blanket reading is telling me ya'll think i'm full of ****. am i right? thought so.

Skynut

BIZILL wrote:

he was referring to government and legislature. not so much anyone here. and yes, i can read his mind and answer for him.;)

If you read my mind you will need therapy.:eek:

You've been warned.:D

steveinaz

they = those who would like to see citizens disarmed, be they whomever; politicians, anti-gun, Sara Brady, etc., etc...

The "fantasy" is thinking that these issues don't affect you. But, as I said earlier, deal with your situation as you see fit. I'm done with this thread.

ND13

COWBELL anyone!!!!