HD DVD/ Blue ray

machineman

Well they're bending us over again. They did it with SACD and DVD audio, now it's video BS time. I have to admit they got me with the audio formats and did me in good.:mad: Spent over $2500 to be the first on the block with high end equipment that you can buy for next to nothing now and plays both formats.
The sad part is most people don't know you can do all this with Windows Media center and a good video card.
I like the excerp below from one review http://www.avrev.com/equip/samsung_bdp1000_bluray/on the new Samsung Blu ray disk player. You gotta love it. You think they're being paid by the manufacturers?

"Conclusion
If you are starved for HDTV and have the money and equipment, I say jump on board and support Blu-ray and HD DVD both. If you are looking at the two formats side by side and want to put your money into one of them, I’d say that your decision should be based on the pending titles from each format. It is an absolute tragedy that we as consumers have to be forced to chose one or the other, unless we want to shell out $1,500 dollars at a minimum for two players, then add at least $300 or more on to get some kind of HDMI video switching or a new TV set that has multiple HDMI inputs, or a new receiver or AV preamp that has two if not three HDMI inputs, assuming your cable or satellite box is HDMI. It would be a shame to not be able to take advantage of the video performance benefits of HDMI with all of your HD sources, but it sure makes you stop and think how you are going to switch all these sources."

wingnut4772

Amen!

PhantomOG

the extremely high initial pricing combined with the almost non-existent library of titles makes me wonder why anyone would jump in. Throw in the fact that there are two competing standards, of which one will most likely die off, and I see no reason not to just wait a year or so.

I really wonder if high definition DVD (either) will really take off and replace regular DVD's. Or will it be a niche thing like SACD and DVD-audio.

Demiurge

PhantomOG wrote:

the extremely high initial pricing combined with the almost non-existent library of titles makes me wonder why anyone would jump in. Throw in the fact that there are two competing standards, of which one will most likely die off, and I see no reason not to just wait a year or so.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

I don't get it either, even as an impulse. You could potentially be burning $500+ on a format that might not last a couple years. I do suspect they will be merging the 2 formats into 1 player eventually, and I don't care how many hoops folks say they'll need to jump through to do that. They'll do it if it means they'll all make money. I doubt either one will truly die.

Sami

PhantomOG wrote:

I really wonder if high definition DVD (either) will really take off and replace regular DVD's. Or will it be a niche thing like SACD and DVD-audio.

There's no question about it, really. It's a huge difference and this site makes me wonder if you even need HD display to see the difference:

http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/

This comparison has flaws but as you can see, HD capture downconverted to 480 looks a lot better then 480 capture from DVD.

PhantomOG

Sami wrote:

There's no question about it, really. It's a huge difference and this site makes me wonder if you even need HD display to see the difference:

http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/

This comparison has flaws but as you can see, HD capture downconverted to 480 looks a lot better then 480 capture from DVD.

I'm sure people make the same comments about both SACD and DVD-audio replacing CD's when they first came out.

I'm all for improved quality, but I don't doubt that average Joe's inability to see its value.

mulveling

HDDVD/Bluray makes a significant difference over DVD that even the average person can see and appreciate on an (increasingly common) HDTV. SACD & DVDA on the other hand, offered subtle improvements generally only noticeable on high end audio gear well out of reach of the genral public - and even if they had the gear they might not hear the difference or care.

I never bought into SACD/DVDA. I have that capability on my Denon 2910, but honestly a standard CD on my Meridian sounds better than SACD on the Denon. I'm very tempted to jump into HDDVD because the video quality difference to me is HUGE and I've got a nice HDTV that can't show what it's capable of with regular DVD.

Sami

mulveling, you are absolutely correct. Audio and video are totally different animals, especially when it comes to the average joe.

Kris Siegel

PhantomOG wrote:

Throw in the fact that there are two competing standards, of which one will most likely die off

I wouldn't be so sure. Remember DVD-R versus DVD+R? At first it was either DVD-R records or DVD+R recorders. DVD-R seemed to be winning at first but then every company in existance changed their recorders from 1 standard to both. Now you can get both.

Toshiba, NEC, Sony and I think a few others are working to make HD-DVD and BluRay combo players so I wouldn't be surprised if both formats survived for a long time.

Demiurge

Kris Siegel wrote:

I wouldn't be so sure. Remember DVD-R versus DVD+R? At first it was either DVD-R records or DVD+R recorders. DVD-R seemed to be winning at first but then every company in existance changed their recorders from 1 standard to both. Now you can get both.

Toshiba, NEC, Sony and I think a few others are working to make HD-DVD and BluRay combo players so I wouldn't be surprised if both formats survived for a long time.

That's recordable media, and at a price point much lower than your authentic studio released DVD. The market won't support 3 different formats for movies, IMO. This is why I think you'll eventually see multi-format players sooner rather than later simply because they can do it, but one format will win out in the long run. I just see them milking both for as long as they can.

Comparing it to audio is also a bit misleading. There are lots of audiophiles out there, but videophiles are not quite as common. There's just not going to be enough support for 2 formats, let alone 3.

I realize I kind of contradicted myself after my first statement, but this is what I see the more I think about it.

[Deleted User]

Anyone remember BETA vs. VHS? One is going to fall on it's face.

machineman

Don't get me wrong I am not doubting the quality of picture on either or the sacd/ dvda.

I just think it's a shame because I know many people that would have jumped on the bandwagon but after their wallets suffered through the earlier format wars...Dolby digital/DTS, etc, etc. many said the hell with it. Hell, there still arguing about how many speakers you should have,ie. 2 surrounds, 1 rear effects, 2 rear effects, so on and so on.

Can't we all just get along?;)

tommyboy

I know others might not agree with me but until they drop the price of Hd/blu ray discs, and not have ANY analog programming at all, there is no reason for me to buy an hd set(at least until my tube goes). Right now, if I got hdtv and Comcast, prolly 95% of everything I would watch wouldn't be HD anyways. and its not worth spending more money on the players and the HDvds themselves to get a little better picture quality. My analog tv is all I need right now.

polkatese

What is really sad in my mind is to know that one format will die away, and this pissing contest could be resolved way before each camp spent an obscene amount of money to push for their respective formats.

Demiurge

tommyboy wrote:

I know others might not agree with me but until they drop the price of Hd/blu ray discs, and not have ANY analog programming at all, there is no reason for me to buy an hd set(at least until my tube goes). Right now, if I got hdtv and Comcast, prolly 95% of everything I would watch wouldn't be HD anyways. and its not worth spending more money on the players and the HDvds themselves to get a little better picture quality. My analog tv is all I need right now.

Well, it's a LOT better picture quality, or you've got vision issues. The only variable is which format will win. Higher Definition TVs and DVD players are here to stay.

Strong Bad

The one big item, other than price, that keeps me away from Blu-Ray is the fact they haven't perfected the dual layer process. Yeah, single layer Blu-Rays hold a boatload of data, but they'll bend us over touting dual layer super-mega-ultra Blu-Ray releases after we stocked up on the single layer ones.

Until EVERYTHING is right including the price, I ain't going near it.

Regular DVD looks great to me.


John

Kris Siegel

Demiurge wrote:

That's recordable media, and at a price point much lower than your authentic studio released DVD. The market won't support 3 different formats for movies, IMO. This is why I think you'll eventually see multi-format players sooner rather than later simply because they can do it, but one format will win out in the long run. I just see them milking both for as long as they can.

BluRay and HD-DVD are also recordable media. That's one of the biggest selling points for both because they can hold much more data. Both would be great for archiving data and I believe Apple is already planning on including Blu-Ray players and support for HD-DVDs and well as BluRay with iDVD.

F1nut

I notice a huge difference between redbook and SACD. SACD sounds more real.

polksda

Well color me "early adopter" but I don't consider the $400-500 entry cost of HD-DVD to be all that high compared to other audio/video purchases. Given that it delivers a better quality HD picture than OTA HD or even Voom back in its prime, comparatively speaking I think it's a bargain...

*shrug*

Blu-Ray on the other hand thus far given the 2X entry cost: *BAZOOKABARF*

Demiurge

Kris Siegel wrote:

BluRay and HD-DVD are also recordable media. That's one of the biggest selling points for both because they can hold much more data. Both would be great for archiving data and I believe Apple is already planning on including Blu-Ray players and support for HD-DVDs and well as BluRay with iDVD.

Right, I'm talking about the $20+ DVDs sold by the production houses in these new formants. There isn't enough demand for 3 different medias to be supported over the long term. One will win out. How much can you get a stack of 50 blank DVD-R or DVD+R for? See my point?

polksda

Demiurge wrote:

Right, I'm talking about the $20+ DVDs sold by the production houses in these new formants. There isn't enough demand for 3 different medias to be supported over the long term. One will win out. How much can you get a stack of 50 blank DVD-R or DVD+R for? See my point?

Yes, but unfortunately your point is a nonstarter. *ALL* recordable media is expensive when a new format debuts, and that included CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R and DVD+R. Recordable CD and DVD blanks were $10+ each when they debuted. They came down over time as manufacturing processes became optimized and quantities increased.

Using your logic, there's no need for there ever to be another recording format ever again. DVD-R and DVD+R are it; no need for anything bigger.

Speaking as someone who deals with hundreds of GB of data weekly, I can firmly say: bollocks! The capacity of DVD-R and DVD+R are already insufficient from an archival standpoint...

Demiurge

polksda wrote:

Yes, but unfortunately your point is a nonstarter. *ALL* recordable media is expensive when a new format debuts, and that included CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R and DVD+R. Recordable CD and DVD blanks were $10+ each when they debuted. They came down over time as manufacturing processes became optimized and quantities increased.

Using your logic, there's no need for there ever to be another recording format ever again. DVD-R and DVD+R are it; no need for anything bigger.

Speaking as someone who deals with hundreds of GB of data weekly, I can firmly say: bollocks! The capacity of DVD-R and DVD+R are already insufficient from an archival standpoint...

You're completely missing the point I was making. I never said that DVD-R and DVD+R are sufficient -- BOTH are compatable in one single player. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are two totally different animals that require 2 different players. One of the two will die for the following reason:

Regular DVD will die off first because the jump in picture quality is noticable even with a non-HDTV. One of the new formats will need to take over, and it's not going to be both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. The stores won't be able to stock that many titles in 2 formats -- it's just not going to happen from a business standpoint. If one of the two drop into a niche format I will be extremely surprised, but it could happen. One of the two will become the new BETA to the VHS. That's why the DVD+R and DVD-R comparison to these new formats is a complete non sequitur.

If Blu-Ray and HD-DVD duke it out in the PC market for data storage, whatever. That's not where the money is being made -- it's in movies and games, and frankly that's all I was ever arguing. That's why I am saying that only one of the two will likely be available for burning purposes. They're not going to make players for a format that the majority of people aren't using.

Ron-P

I jumped right into HD-DVD the day it came out. Two of my all time favorite titles came along with it. Why did I jump in, price, for $500 I get 1080i and some seriously fantastic upscaling of SD-DVDs. Being an early adopter has risks but the risk for HD-DVD is an inexpensive one.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You cannot compare HD-DVD / Blu-ray to SCAD / DVD-A.

SCAD and DVD-A were always and forever will be an enthusiast format, not too many people need or want high quality audio playback nor do they have, or care to spend the money on, the gear to support it, people want their music portable. Also, not near as many people listen to music as a dedicated entertainment source vr watching movies. A dedicated listening room is completely useless for entertaining anyone other then one person at a time. Home Theaters can entertain many at a time. The demand is much stronger with home theater then there ever was or will be with hi-def audio.

As for Blu-ray, I'm staying clear. I wanted to jump right in as well but the price is too much and from what I am reading, PQ is no where near that of HD-DVD and looks more like upscaled 480p material. I went to BB today and can now confim that Blu-ray does look like upscaled 480p, at least from their looped material that was playing. They had no movies to demo.

sucks2beme

Josh wrote:

Anyone remember BETA vs. VHS? One is going to fall on it's face.

And don't forget the SUPERIOR format, laserdisk, that fell flat on it's face.
Tech savy products often fail.
Sneaky marketing will win the day. Someone will bundle a player with extras, or a big rebate and win the war. Or there will be some other product that will
come out of no where and blow both of them away. This, of course, will happen as soon as I plink down my money on whatever the loser product turns out to be.

Andrew2112

I just got myself an upconverting DVD for $100....so I'm just going to sit back, relax and wait for the winner ...oh and also for the 3rd or 4th generation when all the bugs have been iron out.

aaharvel

Andrew2112 wrote:

I just got myself an upconverting DVD for $100....so I'm just going to sit back, relax and wait for the winner ...oh and also for the 3rd or 4th generation when all the bugs have been iron out.

same here and same here.

Deadof_knight

I have the Sammsung hd-960 on UPS truck and at the house in a few days My dvd player is dieing out Sorta bad cord but the wife can see the difference when I showed her and she likes it too And to boot she wants the new Samsung LN-4095 Its Christmas in january !!!!

MikeC78

Deadof_knight wrote:

I have the Sammsung hd-960 on UPS truck and at the house in a few days My dvd player is dieing out Sorta bad cord but the wife can see the difference when I showed her and she likes it too And to boot she wants the new Samsung LN-4095 Its Christmas in january !!!!

Dude, that is not a BR or a HD DVD player. Do you have any BD or HD DVD disks?

Mike

BIZILL

that's the problem with technology. it's hard for the general mainstream public to climb on board without proper knowledge. one must self-educate to keep on top of things. the worst thing is watching a person who knows not about what they speak and spread their 'knowledge' to others. then it gets funneled down to oblivion. example: best buy and circuit city employees...

Deadof_knight

Its an upconverting dvd correct. My question in another string was whats the major difference in the two. hd vs blu ray Im looking but I really havent seen a defining difference.... Educate me please

I demoed the Blu ray and it is sweet but I have yet to see the actual Hd dvd player.........

MikeC78

Deadof_knight wrote:

Its an upconverting dvd correct. My question in another string was whats the major difference in the two. hd vs blu ray Im looking but I really havent seen a defining difference.... Educate me please

Choice of movies and price.

Mike