Denon v.s Pioneer Elite

SCOTNICK

Hey there polkheads. I have just bought a complete Polk speaker system, which include Lsi9's for front and man rear, Lsic for center, FXi5's for side surround, and the psw1000 for sub. Now i need to decide on a first class receiver. I have come down to two brands, denon and pioneer elite. I am willing to spend around $4000. Does anyone have any expeirence with these two brands and high end polk speakers?

audiobliss

I would say that at that price range, a choice between receivers by brands such as Denon and Pioneer Elite would probably come down to personal preference and features, rather than pure superiority of one over the other.

However, a LSi HT system deserves and would really breath and perform better on separates. And with a price tag of $4,000, you could do really well putting together some separates.

okiepolkie

Welcome to the forum.

It looks like you have done your homework and have aquired some very nice speakers.

I agree with audiobliss. You should seriously consider separates for those speakers. At that price range, your choices are wide open.

Since you didn't ask about separates, I won't expound on options. If you want them, there are several of us that would be more than willing to help.

SCOTNICK

for some reason I have never been into the option of seperates. I kinda have always liked the idea of one monster receiver that can do it all. I guess it's just what I'm used too. Plus I am not too familar with using seperates.

okiepolkie

As far as integration goes, separates aren't much different than a typical receiver. All of your video and audio components hook up to the pre-amplifier/HT-processor, just like a receiver. The only difference is that you run interconnects from the pre/pro to a separate amplifier. If you are doing 5.1 surround sound, this mean you get 5 wires to run between them. If you are doing 7.1, then you would run 7. The pre/pro goes from the pre-amp outputs to the inputs on the ext amp.

SCOTNICK wrote:

the idea of one monster receiver that can do it all.

This is true in many respects, but in many respects, this is also a receiver's downfall.

Since all of the parts are crammed into one box, the quality of individual pieces are usually compormised. At the same time, since there are more wires, and components carrying current, there is a greater chance of electromagnetic interference. In both of these instances, the interference and build quality reach distortion levels much more quickly than separates.

For most people, this isn't a big deal. However, you have speakers that pick out many of the faults in electronics (reproducing the distortion).
Add to the fact that the LSi's are 4 ohm speaekrs, where receivers are geared for 8 ohm speakers, and you have compounded your problem even more. The 4 ohm load makes the receiver work harder to reproduce sound at the normal listening levels. As a result, most people turn up the volume knob, and reach the distortion levels of the receiver even faster.

There are a few receivers within your price range that I would recommend, but I would still push for separates in your case.

The following receivers would do an admirable job of driving the LSi's. Out of exhaustion, I might leave a couple off the list, but you can get the idea.

Receivers:
NAD- higher end ones, new ones coming out in the fall
B&K- AVR505 or 507 can be had for under $3500
Rotel- RSX1067 or comparable model
Sunfire- Ultimate Receiver, although is closer to $5000.

Separates:

Outlaw
NAD
B&K
Rotel
Sunfire
Adcom
Parasound
and I know there are several others that could fit into your budget.

I hope this explanation has been helpful, even if you don't go with separates.

My last plug is that I wouldn't get the Denon or Pioneer for your system because they won't be as stable for the 4 ohm speakers. Will they work? Yes. But you might pay the price later because your receiver won't be able to handle the load when you want to turn up the volume, or you realize that you aren't getting the most out of some very good speakers.

Enjoy yourself on the forum. You can gain a wealth of knwoledge if you stick around and grow with us.

audiobliss

Wow. Very comprehensive post. I can't even think of anything that could be added.

As you can probably tell, a very strong argument can be (and has been!) made to go with separates. So you will get the most out of your speakers and not run the risk of becoming dissatisfied with your system later, I would encourage you to go with separates, especially since you can go that route for the same amount of money.

SCOTNICK

this is true and kinda what i was afraid of, thanks for the inpt

audiobliss

I think I can understand your hesitancy to go for separates. To those relatively new to audio, receivers definitely seem the way to go, and separates definitely seem to be overkill. At least that's how it was with me.

I got my Yamaha RX-V1400 receiver about three years ago. While it doesn't even compare to the receivers in the range you're looking at, I still considered it to be a 'nice' reciever, at $800. At least compared to what I was familiar with and what most of my peers had. However, I soon came to realize exactly how much better separates are. I was able to get a separate amp and, eventually, a preamp. The separate amp really made a big difference in the sound...a nice improvement. So then I started using my Yamaha as a preamp. You would think that, with all the talk of the shortcomings of the internal amps in receivers, that the preamp would be pretty good. However, when I finally got a separate preamp to replace my Yamaha, the difference really was astounding! Much greater even than the difference when I got separate amplification.

Of course any of the receivers you may end up with are far better than my Yamaha, the difference between receiver and separates is still much the same, just at a higher level.

haimoc

With this price tag, I would spend on the Arcam Pre/Processor AVP700 (HDMI switching supported) and Rotel 1095 multiple channel amp. They match well with Polk Lsi speakers.

mantis

Here's what you do, go get a B&K avr 507s2 receiver and call it a day. It's around 4000.00 and in my opnion is the very best receiver you can buy to power the Lsi series speakers correctly. It to me sounds the best driving them. I would take it over all other listed receivers. McIntosh is the only other brand along with Lexicon that I think is better. but owning Lsi's don't warrant that kind of money.

www.bkcomp.com

Dan

schwarcw

Do those speaker connections on the back of the B&K only accept banna plugs. I didn't see any balanced input or outputs either. For that kind of dough I would expect some balanced connections

mantis

schwarcw wrote:

Do those speaker connections on the back of the B&K only accept banna plugs. I didn't see any balanced input or outputs either. For that kind of dough I would expect some balanced connections

The speaker posts are 5 way. If you want balanced inputs/outputs you have to go with there seperates.

Dan

audiobliss

Good point. XLR would be, umm, 'gravy'.

reeltrouble1

If you insist on some receiver then the B&K is in another class from your first choices.

Me, seperates for all of the above.

RT1

faster100

$4K for a receiver is alittle much, I love Recievers... however i would go separetes as well, for that coin

TroyD

mantis wrote:

Here's what you do, go get a B&K avr 507s2 receiver and call it a day. It's around 4000.00 and in my opnion is the very best receiver you can buy to power the Lsi series speakers correctly. It to me sounds the best driving them. I would take it over all other listed receivers. McIntosh is the only other brand along with Lexicon that I think is better. but owning Lsi's don't warrant that kind of money.

www.bkcomp.com

Dan

Sure, if you want to just flush money down the toilet....g'head. Not that it's a *bad* item, it isn't. However, if you do a little homework, you can get better sound for less money.

BDT

amulford

Personally, If I were to go with a receiver, it'd be a NAD or another Sunfire. They are the only two that I see openly spec themselves for 4 Ohm loads. The NAD does 110 cont~, with 230 dynamic for a 4 ohm load. The Sunfire does 200 cont~, with 400 dynamic...

I don't believe Mac puts out a receiver, I can't find any power output or load rating for the Lexicon.

Some folks want the ease of one piece, as opposed to two. at minimum. Different strokes...

mantis

TroyD wrote:

Sure, if you want to just flush money down the toilet....g'head. Not that it's a *bad* item, it isn't. However, if you do a little homework, you can get better sound for less money.

BDT

Your not going to beat the B&K avr507s2 at retail cost in a receiver. No other receiver made outperforms it at or below it's price point. For Lsi speakers, the B&k I feel is the best and matches perfectly. Dude doesn't want seperates if you read this thead man. Get one used and save some money. His budget it 4k, so this falls right in his lap

Dan

dave shepard

amulford wrote:

Personally, If I were to go with a receiver, it'd be a NAD or another Sunfire. They are the only two that I see openly spec themselves for 4 Ohm loads. The NAD does 110 cont~, with 230 dynamic for a 4 ohm load. The Sunfire does 200 cont~, with 400 dynamic...

I don't believe Mac puts out a receiver, I can't find any power output or load rating for the Lexicon.

Some folks want the ease of one piece, as opposed to two. at minimum. Different strokes...

Mac does have a reciever it's the MHT200 with rated power in 4ohms 2x160w, 3x140w, 5x130w, 6x120w and also has Power Guard to prevent clipping. One hell of a unit but above the price mentioned for sure ($6900). I like the NAD units the 773 ($1799) 7X110w 4/8ohms with dynamic power that goes into 2ohms 390w.

Dave

TroyD

mantis wrote:

Your not going to beat the B&K avr507s2 at retail cost in a receiver. No other receiver made outperforms it at or below it's price point. For Lsi speakers, the B&k I feel is the best and matches perfectly. Dude doesn't want seperates if you read this thead man. Get one used and save some money. His budget it 4k, so this falls right in his lap

Dan

That's your opinion and you are more than welcome to it. $4K for that receiver is a lazy purchase....MUCH better sound to be had for substantially less coin out there.

BDT

mantis

TroyD wrote:

That's your opinion and you are more than welcome to it. $4K for that receiver is a lazy purchase....MUCH better sound to be had for substantially less coin out there.

BDT

And thats yours, there is no receiver on the market that is better for that kind of money. Nothing sounds better, and by the way, it's anot a lazy purchase, not everyone is into seperates. People come around to them when it's there time. This guy may not be ready for that. His lose, his gain. Only he can be the judge of that.

Better sound then B&K at that price point??? Not much out there man, not much at all, the only way to beat it is to go older and used. But then is it better?Or just different?

Dan

univera

I can't say that I have heard any of those specific models, but I have a vintage NAD 7600 receiver powering my SRS's and it sounds awesome. Tons of headroom and never seems to struggle. Very highly acclaimed piece. One can purchase one for $500.00 or less online. I'd bet money that it can run with some of the newer multi-thousand dollars pieces in terms of sound and build quality even though it may lack some of the updated inputs, etc.

nebborjk

Check out Audiogon, you can get the best of both worlds:
B&K Ref.50 Processor $1500+/-
Ref 200.5/7 Amplifier $1500+/-

All used of course.

AndyGwis

I second the B&K separates route. I have an old ST-202 and it's definitely a great piece of equipment. I can only imagine their newer / higher-end stuff is that much better.

No experience with B&K AVRs, but guessing they'd do justice if you were looking for an all in one solution for power and processing.

Also look at the Marantz high-end receivers. My friend's dad just got one, it sounds great and is definitely a beefy powerhouse. It must be about a foot tall. I'll see if it has 4-ohm specs. . . it should.

josh_parsons626

Hey guys lemme ask you all a question. Can you get a relatively cheap receiver that has all the features you like and it still work just as good as a dedicated pre/pro? Or to have overall sound quality at best is it the smarter route to get the dedicated pre/pro that has all the features you want?

cfrizz

Hi Josh. Many of us including me, have a receiver with all the bells & whistles we want with separate amplification.

Only you can know whether or not a rec/amp combo or all separates sound better. The only way to do that, is to find a store that carries both separates & receivers & demo like mad with music YOU are familair with.

josh_parsons626

Well the reason why I ask is cause I can get an Outlaw Audio 990 pre/pro and Outlaw Audio 7700 300 watts 7 channel amp for $2,898.00. So that would probably be better than going out and buying a high end receiver then? Even like a Denon AVR-5805, or a Yamaha RX-Z9, or Pioneer Elite VSX-59TXi? Cause if not seperates that was the route I was gonna go, one those 3 receivers, or a Sunfire Ultimate Receiver II cause it's 200 watts per channel. But I think my best bet would be to go ahead and get the Outlaw Audio combo

cfrizz

YES!!! By all means get the Outlaw combo!!!!

josh_parsons626

Ok!!!!!!