Teachers....

Danny Tse

Back in 1977, when I first arrived in the US, I attended Lincoln Elementary School in Oakland, California. My first teacher there was Sherlyn Chew and she made the transition from Hong Kong to the US much easier than I imagined. As I was commuting to work today, I was somewhat surprised to find an article about Mrs. Chew in today's San Francisco Chronicle about her and her teaching traditional Chinese music to Latino kids.

Article at SF Chronicle

I am not a teacher nor am I a parent. I suppose those who chose to be teachers can always make better money somewhere else, yet they choose to better society by educating young minds. Imagine the minds that are influenced by one single teacher over the years. Somehow, our governments have decided that this profession isn't worth much by paying teachers abysmal salaries. Sure, they are good and bad teachers, but on the whole, teachers (and education) is seriously undervalued in this country. When I hear A. Rod making more money per at-bat than a typical teacher makes in a year, that really makes me upset (just a comparison, nothing against A. Rod for getting whatever he can).

Just a Friday rant....

daniel_paul_

Teachers start around $40k-$46 around the Philadelphia area and it goes up pretty quickly. There are teachers making over $80k. But I hear horror stories about other places.

Danny Tse

daniel_paul_ wrote:

But I hear horror stories about other places.

Here in the Bay Area, there are still stories of teachers using their own money for student supplies.

Demiurge

They also get killer healthcare packages, pensions, don't work full days (often), and get 3 months off per year (in most states). Sorry if I lack sympathy.

Skynut

My kids teacher uses her own money sometimes.
We also donate pencils and supplies at the beginning of the year to help the class.
It is so sad the low priority placed on education.
If we wanted to keep our nation in the Super Power status we seem to be in we need better education.
I am afraid many of the devoloping nations that put a high priority on education will easily pass us by in my lifetime if something is not done here.

okiepolkie

Danny Tse wrote:

Here in the Bay Area, there are still stories of teachers using their own money for student supplies.

So you are saying that I don't have to spend my money to buy supplies. If I don't buy them, where am I going to get them?

daniel_paul_

Skynut wrote:

My kids teacher uses her own money sometimes.
We also donate pencils and supplies at the beginning of the year to help the class.
It is so sad the low priority placed on education.
If we wanted to keep our nation in the Super Power status we seem to be in we need better education.
I am afraid many of the devoloping nations that put a high priority on education will easily pass us by in my lifetime if something is not done here.

In philly (my son-to-be- wife is a teacher) they are given an endless supply of money. Books, you got them, paper, laptops you got them. It still comes down to the parents. If they are involved the kids do well. If they are not they fail. That said, the kids should have access to the supplies.

I feel for the teachers that make $18k and supply everything themselve.

Skynut

Teachers should get paid well enough that more people will want to teach.
Then we can weed out the lower quality teachers.
As it is now (in my area) the teachers are short handed because they barely make a living and the ones that care about teaching are out shopping for supplies that should be provided to them.

Danny Tse

Don't forget there are also the school administrators that run the school districts into the ground. The forementioned Oakland, CA school district is actually run by the State since the local administrators can't seem to do the job.

daniel_paul_

Skynut wrote:

Teachers should get paid well enough that more people will want to teach.
Then we can weed out the lower quality teachers.QUOTE]


Won't happen. When a teacher reaches tenyear(sp?) they can not be fire. A friend is a teacher and in her school district after 3 yaers you are locked in. You can thank the unions for that. We have plenty of crap teachers.

Skynut

^^^that sucks^^^

jdhdiggs

Yup, the teachers union causes the problems. By demanding that all teachers are payed on the same scale regardless of talent, means the good ones get stuck with the bad. Scrap the union.

BTW, the average HS teacher in my current school district makes $75K/yr for working 9 months. And 3/4 of their last three years average salary every year for retirement. Not bad work...

Danny Tse

jdhdiggs wrote:

Yup, the teachers union causes the problems. By demanding that all teachers are payed on the same scale regardless of talent, means the good ones get stuck with the bad. Scrap the union.

BTW, the average HS teacher in my current school district makes $75K/yr for working 9 months. And 3/4 of their last three years average salary every year for retirement. Not bad work...

Wow! That's a good salary! On the other hand, probably don't take into account the amount of time involved for class preparation.

Shizelbs

I have no remorse for what teachers do or don't get paid. They may start low, but by the end, they'll be doing just fine. They've got all summer to feel sorry for themselves.

DollarDave

Shizelbs wrote:

I have no remorse for what teachers do or don't get paid. They may start low, but by the end, they'll be doing just fine. They've got all summer to feel sorry for themselves.

Let me set a few of you straight. My wife is a Special Ed teacher in the Katy school district (Houston suburb) making about 36K annually. BTW, KISD is a nationally recognized school district. She gets about 6 weeks off in the summer - it is a myth that teachers work 9 months and lay around the rest. They have continuing education, in-service days, classes for additional certifications, etc. The health-care benefits are worse than mine from the bank I work at - the kids are on my policy. She graduated from TCU summa-****-laud on a full academic scholarship. When we got married she moved to South Dakota where the teaching pay was in the low 20's so she took a job in banking. When we moved to Texas, she took a pay-cut to get back into teaching. She must define indivual lession plans (IEPs) for up to 20 students, meet with district supervisors, conference with parents, work with the administration, and coordinate the scheduling of the SE department staff with all home room teachers and students of diverse ages, abilities, and grade-levels. I am compensated at a rate of 3X her and could not do what she does. Don't give me the "Oh after 20 years they retire and get paid all these benefits..." crap, because in their environment there aren't too many willing or able to take 20 years of it. She won't do it much longer and that will be a great lose to many children who really need the care and special ability she has.

masanz1

coming from a state that has one of the worse school systems in the country I say that most teachers are worth what they get paid, it is the administrators that really tick me off. Every year we here about all the schools they are going to close unless they get more money and we already have one of the highest personal income tax in the nation. We have to bring in school supplies and kick in $10 for teacher expenses per student. As long as my kids are educated, I don't mind. Home schooling is becoming pretty big here though

Demiurge

DaveMuell:

BULL!

Here is a copy of the 'demands' of WEAC on the school district that I am a product of, and currently live in. This is from 2003-2005, and things have obviously gone up.

I dare you to read all that and then tell me your company can offer you one better unless you're un upper level management. My company can't offer anything near that, and I am part owner.

So, please -- nothing more nauseating than a teacher bitching about their salary. The fringe benefits and time off are insane. God bless those that do it, there are a lot of great teachers out there and it's a job I wouldn't want, but that's why I am not a teacher. Different strokes for different folks.

Job security, anyone? Yeah, like any other government job...try getting fired.

Demiurge

BTW, Dave...if you want to know why I called B.S. This is why. The lowest pay grade on that .pdf file for our school district is 35.5K, and that's with only a B.A. and 0 years of experience. If you stick with a B.A. you can go up to almost 60K over time, plus (and it's a big plus) the Ferarri benefit package all teachers get, vaction, and cumulative paid leave.

I have a hard time believing that one of the best school districts in the country doesn't offer the same.

masanz1

Between all the holidays etc. don't teachers get on average 12 work weeks off. Let's do some math.

60days-20days(normal long term employee vacation) - 9 days holiday =31 days or 6 weeks. 36000/46 weeks=$19.55/hour. I don't think that's too shabby.

I really do give your wife Kudos for what she does but most of us have to deal with many of the same things, management, subordinates, schedules, meetings, etc etc. and don't get an extra 6 weeks off.

Mazeroth

Demiurge, that is nowhere near the national average. My wife is a K-3 teacher getting her Master's in Special Ed, which is MANDATORY in the state of Ohio to get after two years (a Master's) or they will take away your license. We pay out of pocket for the eduaction as well.

She started out making $31k/year two years ago and puts in about 60 hours per week. She has to buy supplies out of her own pocket because the school won't supply them. Did I mention the schools in Columbus no longer use BOOKS?!?! No ****. She has a 10,000 pages/year limit on making copies. Anything over that and she has to make copies with her own money. 10,000 sounds like a lot, but let's do the math:

10,000 / 180 days = 56 copies per day for all the students. This is for students that do not use books, so copies are what they rely on. Yeah, talk about a crock of ****. She spends tons of money on paper so her students can do what they're there to do: LEARN.

Right now she's making $33k a year working 60 hours per week during the 36 weeks. She gets about 8 weeks off for the Summer, which is nice, but if you figure out the 20 hours per week she should get time and a half, it's like her working for:

70 hours/week (40 + 20x1.5) x 36 weeks = 2520 hours + 160 hours one month in summer = 2680 hours. $33000/2680 = $12.31/hour.

You read that right. $12.31/hour.

Now, the next time you're about to bash on teachers having it good I hope you remember these numbers. Hell, even a teacher in her shoes (one that gives a damn) that's making $66000/year is only making $24.62/hour. That's a slap in the face. The **** these teachers put up with nowadays is unbelievable. I give her so much respect for going to work every day and doing everything she can to help these kids have a future. There's no way in hell I could do it, and I'm glad I didn't become a teacher.

Mazeroth

masanz1 wrote:

Between all the holidays etc. don't teachers get on average 12 work weeks off. Let's do some math.

60days-20days(normal long term employee vacation) - 9 days holiday =31 days or 6 weeks. 36000/46 weeks=$19.55/hour. I don't think that's too shabby.

I really do give your wife Kudos for what she does but most of us have to deal with many of the same things, management, subordinates, schedules, meetings, etc etc. and don't get an extra 6 weeks off.

$19.55/hour if they only put in 40 hours per week, which NO teacher does. My wife, as I mentioned above, puts in around 60 hours per week.

Demiurge

Sorry if I don't understand the fuzzy math, but schools are only open for standard weighted class periods of 8 hours a day Monday-Friday. That's a 40 hour work week. You're telling me she's putting in an additional 4 hours a day. If she is, that's great, and she should get paid for it if it's required, especially if she's picking up the slack of others. NO DOUBT. Once again, turn your eyes to the teachers unions.

If everything you're saying is right, and she's picking up someone elses slack she's getting hosed.

One thing I don't like is that you don't include vacation, and cumulative leaves into the figures, nor all of the other fringe benefits that most employees of private establishments aren't privy to. Having a nice pension is something most people don't. Why are you breaking down the base salary to show an hourly rate without including the fringe benefits. They're huge, and it's not a fair view.

Demiurge

Mazeroth wrote:

$19.55/hour if they only put in 40 hours per week, which NO teacher does. My wife, as I mentioned above, puts in around 60 hours per week.

For a 23 year old right out of college is that bad? Especially considering the gigantic benefits, and job security? You're making it sound as bad as you can. It's not the best paying job in the world, but it's harldy the worst. Plus you can depend on it for life.

DollarDave

Demiurge wrote:

DaveMuell:

BULL!

Here is a copy of the 'demands' of WEAC on the school district that I am a product of, and currently live in. This is from 2003-2005, and things have obviously gone up.

I dare you to read all that and then tell me your company can offer you one better unless you're un upper level management. My company can't offer anything near that, and I am part owner.

So, please -- nothing more nauseating than a teacher bitching about their salary. The fringe benefits and time off are insane. God bless those that do it, there are a lot of great teachers out there and it's a job I wouldn't want, but that's why I am not a teacher. Different strokes for different folks.

Job security, anyone? Yeah, like any other government job...try getting fired.

Sorry, I got stuck on a call and started this repy quite a while ago..

Exactly which parts of my statement were "BULL!"? I am in upper manangement, that is why they pay me 3X what she makes...as far as the health insurance, ours is better and it is the same plan that all employees at our bank have. Hers just isn't very good. What more do you want, a point-by-point comparison? Here is the link to the benefits page from their district - I was wrong she makes 38.5K http://www.katyisd.org/services/human_resources.htm, and a link to the about page to show the average in the district of 43.7K http://www.katyisd.org/about_kisd.htm.

I don't know about the teacher's unions in Millwaukee, but they are not very strong here.

BTW, if it wasn't for a very active and generous PTA she would be out hundreds of dollars each year for classroom materials.

Dennis Gardner

Free market = low pay in government jobs. Simple as that.

But why complain when it was clearly your choice? Get a different job unless it is true that those that can't do........... teach. Then I guess it was your destiny.

bobman1235

I don't particularly feel bad for teachers - some districts are obviously great to work in, others are probably horrible when it comes to pay. The reason teachers being "underpaid" is bad (when it's an issue, and there's obviously some debate here about whether it is or not) is taht there is not much of a reason to BECOME a teacher. So you don't necessarily have to feel bad fro teh current teachers, but if situations don't improve you're going to have less and less people going into the profession, and THEN what?

Shizelbs

While we are at it, lets give physicians in their residency what they deserve. They are burdened by tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt, work 100 hours a week (literally), more if they break the rules, save lives (literally) and are lucky to bring in 40k a year. All this after 8-12 years of ball busting education.

DollarDave

Shizelbs wrote:

While we are at it, lets give physicians in their residency what they deserve. They are burdened by tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt, work 100 hours a week (literally), more if they break the rules, save lives (literally) and are lucky to bring in 40k a year. All this after 8-12 years of ball busting education.

While I agree with you on this, why is your stance different for physicians in their residency? To quote you regarding teachers, "They may start low, but by the end, they'll be doing just fine.".

And, I can vouch that my wife doesn't sit around all summer feeling sorry for herself and her low salary. It is her chosen profession for now, it hasn't always been, and it won't be long-term.

Shizelbs

I guess my underlying point is that teachers aren't the only ones who think they are getting the shaft. But, everyone either does, or should know what they are getting themselves into before they make that commitment. If you don't like your situation, change it.

Danny Tse

Shizelbs wrote:

I guess my underlying point is that teachers aren't the only ones who think they are getting the shaft. But, everyone either does, or should know what they are getting themselves into before they make that commitment. If you don't like your situation, change it.

I think those who choose to become teachers are in it for more than just the money. But there's a point at which we, as a nation, should make teachers feel valued. If we continue to pay teachers with relatively low salaries and not supply them with needed supplies, many will quit or simply not join this honorable profession. What will we do then? Hire teachers from other countries? This is the same thing happening in the nursing.

markmarc

Ok, I'm a teacher in a pvt. catholic school so some of my views are a bit different, but this is my life (I love it BTW):
I arrive at 7am prepare, teach from 8-3:10, meetings, planning/grading/copying/computer troubleshooting until 4:30. Once home I spend another 90 minutes doing additional grading, etc.
Twice a week I get a supposed 45 min lunch. Usually I have 1-2 calls to parents to make. A question or two for the administrator and or secretary. Three days a week I have a 20 min lunch/recess supervisor spot I need to cover. Twice a week I get a one hour planning period, one day is spent on converting and updating the school website. The other day's hour is spent working on my required parts of the school curriculum review (each year a different subject area). Each weekend I spend 3-4 hours on Sunday afternoon working in my classroom, along with 2-3 hours grading at home.

My summer contract shows I get ten weeks vacation, in reality, I spend on average of 20hrs a week taking additional classes and preparing for curriculum changes. I also spend about 100 hours cleaning, fixing, reformatting all the computers.

Healthcare benefits, like virtually everyone else, they have been whittled away. When I started teaching, my wife and son cost me $50 a month. Now it's $300.

Tenure doesn't exist. In Oregon public school teachers don't have it either. Every teacher must have a Masters within 6 years. Yet, once you have that additional degree you become financially less desireable.

Retirement for me is my 401k that my parish school contributes a whopping 7%. The public school teachers do have it better, retirement at 50-75% of the retirement year salary. However, as nice as it looks as each year goes by it gets worse because of salary increases.

One thing to keep in mind, only 50% of teachers make it to 10 years. Just 30% get to 20 years. Thirty years is on average of just 24%.

What really needs to be asked in this forum is not what teachers are paid, but instead, what can be done so that more students succeed? First, get attorneys out of the system. The legal crapola that educators must deal with is mindboggling. In seven years at my current school the legal requirements manual has almost tripled. Teachers are being sued for failing perfectly capable students who don't turn in work. I could go on and on with the legal insanity.

Secondly, cut non-school executive admin costs to 3%. Too many districts average 12-15%. All that is for is paperwork shuffling.

Third, set up a struggling teacher review program whereby a master teacher is assigned to work with the struggler for a year, if things don't improve, the teacher is fired, union can't save them because its a part of the program.

Ok, I've ranted enough. Just remember one thing, if teachers were paid at the same rate as babysitters per child, the salary would be over $110K per year with 25 kids in a class.